Torque Test Channel Open End Wrench Testing Part 2

[Andres26tnt]

was this a joke? Sorry just having my coffee. If they have different finishes, features, sizes, thicknesses how are the same? Material? Did I miss something? Did they have identical performanc?

Are you new to the tool world? Do you not understand how companies with overlap branding work? They share forgings, not all have the same features(anti-slip/rbrt). Some are strait up rebranded. The Mac precision/ facom 440xl and usag are the same wrench, just have a different finish and anti-slip.

 

[dchawk81]

You can have a machine grind down the same blanks into different shapes for various wrench brands. It can repeat the process over and over again with...machine like precision and consistency.

 

[Andres26tnt]

You can have a machine grind down the same blanks into different shapes for various wrench brands. It can repeat the process over and over again with...machine like precision and consistency.

Exactly this, alot is coming out of the same factory. Just slightly different options for whatever market it's going to.

 

[AEAdam]

If you YouTube something like “how wrenches are made” there are several videos showing the drop forging process. You don’t grind the blanks into other shapes. You forge what you want. Grinding is a slow process. Different forging dies are produced for every size of wrench,

You could make various brands from identical forgings, but the resulting tools will be virtually identical. Ends are broached, so FD and FD+ likely share a forging. Williams and Snap On wrenches are both made in the Elizabethtown TN plant but they clearly don’t share a forging.

Even the body of the wrench, that shape is forged, not machined. Light grinding is done with belt sanders to polish the rough forging. Not a lot of other operations. Anything else you do to that forging just adds cost.

Asian factories are famous for producing several different brands, but there are MANY factories producing wide ranges of quality. Some Asian factories have unofficial night shifts where they produce products to lower quality or just lacking QA. Things like polo shirts or Nike shoes get sold into the gray or black markets. So tools coming from a single factory says little about their similarity.

I‘ve spent 32 years in manufacturing. This is what I do for a living.

 

[Andres26tnt]

If you YouTube something like “how wrenches are made” there are several videos showing the drop forging process. You don’t grind the blanks into other shapes. You forge what you want. Grinding is a slow process. Different forging dies are produced for every size of wrench,

You could make various brands from identical forgings, but the resulting tools will be virtually identical. Ends are broached, so FD and FD+ likely share a forging. Williams and Snap On wrenches are both made in the Elizabethtown TN plant but they clearly don’t share a forging.

Even the body of the wrench, that shape is forged, not machined. Light grinding is done with belt sanders to polish the rough forging. Not a lot of other operations. Anything else you do to that forging just adds cost.

Asian factories are famous for producing several different brands, but there are MANY factories producing wide ranges of quality. Some Asian factories have unofficial night shifts where they produce products to lower quality or just lacking QA. Things like polo shirts or Nike shoes get sold into the gray or black markets. So tools coming from a single factory says little about their similarity.

I‘ve spent 32 years in manufacturing. This is what I do for a living.

Looks like you do know. Anyway SB&D is not going to produce a million different forgings for every single market. They will share and reuse to save money. It's standard operating procedures.

 

[AEAdam]

Looks like you do know. Anyway SB&D is not going to produce a million different forgings for every single market. They will share and reuse to save money. It's standard operating procedures.

Not where I work it’s not.

It really depends on their business model. Tooling can be expensive, but likely they have multiple forges and wouldn’t share dies. Snap On Elizabethtown makes 9000 wrenches/day. If they shared SO dies with Williams, that would increase the wear on the dies, potentially decrease the quality of Snap On wrenches and raise the cost of Williams’ Wrenches.

Dies wear and that’s a source of variation that impacts quality. That’s one example of how you can have 2 otherwise identical items made to different price points and quality. You save your freshest dies and newest broaches for your top of the line product. Older tooling goes to a second or third line.

(I don‘t think anyone finds this as interesting as I do).

 

[F-22]

was this a joke? Sorry just having my coffee. If they have different finishes, features, sizes, thicknesses how are the same? Material? Did I miss something? Did they have identical performanc?

Depends on the specific tool, but if you check the wrenches in question, they literally are the same.

Mac:



USAG:


And the facom uses different broaching - 12 point box end and different anti slip profile.




Keep in mind MAC is not sold in Europe.

17mm Mac is listed at 43$ on their website. Harder to find individual USAG wrenches since they don't directly list the price, but the 17mm is 16.20€ on Italian ebay. Facom costs about the same too. I bought my 8 wrench set (8-19 sizes, skipping 9, 11, 16 and 18) for 95€, or about 12€ per wrench.

Facom and USAG are primarily sold to industrial European buyers. You don't see these brands in most general hardware stores (you also don't normally see hazet or stahwille, but you do e.g. see wera and knipex in any bauhaus). They are priced to compete with other European brands.

The Mac is priced to compete with US brands like Snap On.

I don't think the quality is actually worse in any way. They don't offer Mac in Europe at all, there is no real comptitions between those brands and no incentive to offer a lower quality product under the different brand names.


It really should not be surprising to offer different prices for different markets. A new Honda CBF125 costs 3000€ where I live in central Europe. In South Africa it costs under 1000€ for pretty much the same motorcycle.

 

[dukefx]

Warranty might also be a factor. USAG offers 2 years. Since Mac is American I imagine they have some kind of litime warranty and the price covers a few replacements.

 

[AdAstra]

You save your freshest dies and newest broaches for your top of the line product. Older tooling goes to a second or third line.

Althoughhh don’t the broaches wear down and thus tighten the wrench? Older broaches for better fitting wrenches?

 

[AEAdam]

Althoughhh don’t the broaches wear down and thus tighten the wrench? Older broaches for better fitting wrenches?

No. Opposite.

OT Test question. When a drill bit wears, does it make a larger or smaller hole? Everyone on GJ should get this right.

 

[dukefx]

the handle carrier it comes with is actually really nice.

Nope, no carrier at all

 

[neophyte]

Right on. And you just know some greedy ******* in the US came up with rebranding and it’s totally backfired on them. Now US manufacturers can’t compete. Public think all products are rebrands whether they are or not. Europe has been smarter protecting their domestic manufacturing. My opinion. Rant off.

Rebranding has been a thing since the Industrial revolution started in England, and may go back all the way to Ancient Rome.
If you examine the Sheffield tool industry, it was a mix of large tool manufacturers, and “little mesters”, who acted as independent contractors, making parts or whole tools piecemeal, in their own shops, and then supplying those pieces to manufacturers.
Those Little Mesters might be making the same tools for multiple brands with the only difference being the name stamp.
Some of this continued up until the 1950s or later, and possibly survives to this day.

 

[neophyte]

If you YouTube something like “how wrenches are made” there are several videos showing the drop forging process. You don’t grind the blanks into other shapes. You forge what you want. Grinding is a slow process. Different forging dies are produced for every size of wrench,

You could make various brands from identical forgings, but the resulting tools will be virtually identical. Ends are broached, so FD and FD+ likely share a forging. Williams and Snap On wrenches are both made in the Elizabethtown TN plant but they clearly don’t share a forging.

Even the body of the wrench, that shape is forged, not machined. Light grinding is done with belt sanders to polish the rough forging. Not a lot of other operations. Anything else you do to that forging just adds cost.

Asian factories are famous for producing several different brands, but there are MANY factories producing wide ranges of quality. Some Asian factories have unofficial night shifts where they produce products to lower quality or just lacking QA. Things like polo shirts or Nike shoes get sold into the gray or black markets. So tools coming from a single factory says little about their similarity.

I‘ve spent 32 years in manufacturing. This is what I do for a living.

Forging dies aren’t produced for “every size of wrench”
There are usually certain wrench sizes that are close enough that a single forging is used for several sizes, with different broaches used for the open and box ends, and the outer profile of those ends ground down to size.
The sizes were usually metric and SAE sizes that were very close together, maybe being off by a millimeter or two, or in the case of fractional inch sizes, off by maybe a 1/16th or 1/8th depending on size.
On some of the older wrench model numbering systems, you can tell which wrench sizes were made using the same forging blanks, because the model numbers for similar size wrenches are the same, but with a different letter suffix to indicate size (ie. An 11/16 wrench might be #603, and a 5/8” wrench would be 603A).
A small bit of extra grinding doesn’t matter, since the flashing from the forging process leaves rough edges that need to be ground and smoothed, and an extra mm of grinding doesn’t add much extra time and expense.
19mm snd 3/4” wrenches would almost certainly be made using the same forging dies.

 

[F-22]

Nope, no carrier at all

Mine came in a nice pouch but it skips some sizes that are not relevant here in Europe. The pouch has nice embroidered letters. Too bad I don't need it.






Some of the Italian translations to English seem kind of funny/unusual, as they call screw heads hexagons.

 

[Andres26tnt]

Nope, no carrier at all

Wow thought they did, not to bad I think you can purchase the carrier for like 13$

 

[Andres26tnt]

Mine came in a nice pouch but it skips some sizes that are not relevant here in Europe. The pouch has nice embroidered letters. Too bad I don't need it.






Some of the Italian translations to English seem kind of funny/unusual, as they call screw heads hexagons.

Those pouches are deff nice, I reused my facom one to store a set of bondus hex screwdrivers.

 

[Mr_B]

They will likely be different forging dies as for instance the MAC details are done during forging process and it cheaper do this in one stage with dies versus a second process plus as mentioned dies are a wear item and big difference between quality fit is in tooling condition thus they not only going be using one set of dies .
That why get so much varrying opinion on cheaper range tools as if lucky get wrench set with nearly new tooling over later made set with worn out tooling the user experience is night and day apart .

 

[roofdweller49]

https://www.misterworker.com/en-us/usag/set-of-combination-wrenches-with-special-profiles-12-pcs-285-x-se12/94013.html

This is the same as the Facom 440xl, correct?

I like the idea of the Facom xl set with the carrier, but I need 18mm often

 

[Mr_B]

https://www.misterworker.com/en-us/usag/set-of-combination-wrenches-with-special-profiles-12-pcs-285-x-se12/94013.html

This is the same as the Facom 440xl, correct?

I like the idea of the Facom xl set with the carrier, but I need 18mm often

Yeah but 6 point box, the Facom XL set would be good if didn't skip a lot of major useful sizes .
USAG set seems a more complete option .

 

[Andres26tnt]

https://www.misterworker.com/en-us/usag/set-of-combination-wrenches-with-special-profiles-12-pcs-285-x-se12/94013.html

This is the same as the Facom 440xl, correct?

I like the idea of the Facom xl set with the carrier, but I need 18mm often

Not the same, the USAG is 285X is the equivalent of the new Mac rbrt. The facom 440xl is the precision long pattern with the regular anti slip.

Nice catch tho, the 285X wasn't available a few weeks back on mrworker. The price is also really competitive. Shipping tho is where that website will kill ya on.

 

[roofdweller49]

Yeah trying to figure out if it's worth it to buy more and combine shipping, or not.

Would the USAG 285X be good for a primary set of combination wrenches, or are they more a specialty use wrench? (The 6 point box end...)

 

[T45]

Yeah trying to figure out if it's worth it to buy more and combine shipping, or not.

Would the USAG 285X be good for a primary set of combination wrenches, or are they more a specialty use wrench? (The 6 point box end...)

Although it depends a bit on what you are working on, a 6pt box is not typically a primary use wrench. It really depends on what else you have (available) in your cart though. Those XLs would pair quite well with a complementary set of wrenches.

 

[Mr_B]

Don't think want them as primary set but the 6 point box end and grip features be useful in stubborn or damaged fastener scenarios and the added grip for long length can be beneficial .
Is pretty good buy (pending on location/shipping) if want some long wrenches with good bite at sensible cost ...

 

[AEAdam]

Do yourself a favor and get the longest combination wrenches you can get. If your chosen manufacturer doesn’t sell them, go for long double box ends. I personally do not recommend long ratcheting DBEs. Sometimes you need the strength and clearance of a long non ratcheting DBE.
Icon has versions of the Snap On DBEs that have a ratchet on one end and boxes on the other. I would not hesitate to buy the Icons.

 

[T45]

Do yourself a favor and get the longest combination wrenches you can get. If your chosen manufacturer doesn’t sell them, go for long double box ends. I personally do not recommend long ratcheting DBEs. Sometimes you need the strength and clearance of a long non ratcheting DBE.
Icon has versions of the Snap On DBEs that have a ratchet on one end and boxes on the other. I would not hesitate to buy the Icons.

Aerspace DBEs are really long and don't bother me. XXL combos, however, IMHO are an acquired taste.

 

[AEAdam]

Aerspace DBEs are really long and don't bother me. XXL combos, however, IMHO are an acquired taste.

Tell us why. I'm interested.

 

[T45]

Tell us why. I'm interested.

Ergonomics. Didn't like the way they handled.

 

[Andres26tnt]

Yeah trying to figure out if it's worth it to buy more and combine shipping, or not.

Would the USAG 285X be good for a primary set of combination wrenches, or are they more a specialty use wrench? (The 6 point box end...)

It's a great buy, just not an everyday wrench. if you live in the rust belt or any place like that(uk like me) then it is perfectly suited for every day. In my experience here in the UK everything rusts like crazy, so I haven't used any smooth wrench. my everyday wrench is a Milwaukee long pattern with the anti-slip just as aggressive. I also have the Facom 440Xl with the anti-slip in my main box.

As for buying more, sure I do that on that website. Usually they have great deals on certain tools.

 

[Samuel D]

Ergonomics. Didn't like the way they handled.

Didn’t like the handling in what way?

I’m curious because it seems the extra-long double-ended ring versions don’t bother you, just the combinations?

Personally, I work on plenty of stuff (e.g. bicycles) that doesn’t need much torque. And I move my tools around. So very long spanners feel inefficient from a weight point of view: all that needless ease of torque at greater weight.

There’s less of a weight and cost penalty to an extra-long handle with the interchangeable-socket wrench route, since you’re only buying and carrying one long handle.

But if I worked mainly on cars, I’d have more very long spanners (I do have some anyway, but not in my most-used portable box).

I love using them, though. Archimedes was right about levers.

 

[T45]

Didn’t like the handling in what way?

I’m curious because it seems the extra-long double-ended ring versions don’t bother you, just the combinations?

Keep in mind, I'm agreeing that "long" (snap on standard) should be the go-to size. I just don't agree with "as long as you can buy".

 

[AEAdam]

When I look at some of the wrenches on the market, I’m kinda surprised how short they are. The DIN and ISO for wrenches are pretty short (Stahlwile). Maybe a little outdated?

My conspiracy theory is, manufacturers make short wrenches to prevent users from pushing a lot of load thru them. It’s a way to avoid customers‘ stripping your ratchet end or spreading your open end. Short allows a manufacturer to get away with weak materials.

In the standards‘ defense, the bolt torques for a given wrench size are pretty low. We ask more from our tools than new hardware requires.

For me, long is strong, a solution to a problem. And wrenches have advantages over long ratchets and sockets. But long is also better access, not less. It’s water pump bolts, front engine stuff, pulleys etc. This is another reason why I don’t choose 6 pt box wrenches.

 

[CHI_Tool&Die]

When I look at some of the wrenches on the market, I’m kinda surprised how short they are. The DIN and ISO for wrenches are pretty short (Stahlwile). Maybe a little outdated?

My conspiracy theory is, manufacturers make short wrenches to prevent users from pushing a lot of load thru them. It’s a way to avoid customers‘ stripping your ratchet end or spreading your open end. Short allows a manufacturer to get away with weak materials.

In the standards‘ defense, the bolt torques for a given wrench size are pretty low. We ask more from our tools than new hardware requires.

For me, long is strong, a solution to a problem. And wrenches have advantages over long ratchets and sockets. But long is also better access, not less. It’s water pump bolts, front engine stuff, pulleys etc. This is another reason why I don’t choose 6 pt box wrenches.

You are forgetting that wrenches aren’t just for auto. An extra long combination wrench would work terribly for me. 90% of my wrenching is on fixtures, vises, magnets, machine leveling stands, and grinding hubs. Stahlwille or Facom standard length wrenches are perfect for these tasks. I don’t even know if I could fit my Proto or Gedore XXL wrenches in many of those places. I’m not saying you are wrong because I have the longer wrenches at home for car work but those DIN and ISO standards exist because of industry hence the sizing.

 

[AEAdam]

You are forgetting that wrenches aren’t just for auto. An extra long combination wrench would work terribly for me. 90% of my wrenching is on fixtures, vises, magnets, machine leveling stands, and grinding hubs. Stahlwille or Facom standard length wrenches are perfect for these tasks. I don’t even know if I could fit my Proto or Gedore XXL wrenches in many of those places. I’m not saying you are wrong because I have the longer wrenches at home for car work but those DIN and ISO standards exist because of industry hence the sizing.

Yes. Thanks for clarifying. I agree.

More: I don’t really see the utility of a std length 6pt box wrench. If you switch to 6pt because you are worried about rounding a nut, its probably stuck and you’d benefit from long anyway. I see 6 pt box wrenches as a sort of useless marketing gimmick. Appreciate comments.

In my mind, special wrenches are ratcheting, long, or super tight, like snap on fdx (Which I don’t have).

 

[F-22]

They will likely be different forging dies as for instance the MAC details are done during forging process and it cheaper do this in one stage with dies versus a second process plus as mentioned dies are a wear item and big difference between quality fit is in tooling condition thus they not only going be using one set of dies .
That why get so much varrying opinion on cheaper range tools as if lucky get wrench set with nearly new tooling over later made set with worn out tooling the user experience is night and day apart .

Looking at the photos of Mac RBRT wrenches, the "details" (with that I assume you mean the lettering) are milled in, exactly same as on the USAG wrenches. The design of the wrench is such to allow for that.

USAG is considered a top-end tool brand. I do not believe there is any functional difference between MAC and USAG unless someone can actually measure it.

If you mean that they forge in the open and closed end on the Mac in one go, but machine the USAG open and closed end after forging, then I'm pretty certain you're wrong. That would make the Mac ones have excessive slop and poor tolerances.

If they have separate forging dies for Mac and USAG and Facom, I do not understand why wouldn't they just forge the letters on, like they do on the regular Facom wrenches? They certainly have the capability of making crisp nice forged lettering. I am quite certain the design of the wrench with the milled letters was made to sell the same wrench under different brand names from the start of their design phase. They use the same die to make all three.

 

[T45]

USAG is considered a top-end tool brand. I do not believe there is any functional difference between MAC and USAG unless someone can actually measure it.

There suprisingly differences in performance between Mac, Faco, Prot, Cman etc. who all have simliar-looking products. Not sure whats up with that, but I recall taking note of it on some of those wrench-test videos. I'd have to go back and see what exactly it was.

 

[Andres26tnt]

There suprisingly differences in performance between Mac, Faco, Prot, Cman etc. who all have simliar-looking products. Not sure whats up with that, but I recall taking note of it on some of those wrench-test videos. I'd have to go back and see what exactly it was.

That's simple to explain, not one wrench even if forged in the same factory is going to be exactly the same. They will have consistentcy up to a point. Also it's two diferente versions one with anti slip, the other smooth.

 

[T45]

That's simple to explain, not one wrench even if forged in the same factory is going to be exactly the same. They will have consistentcy up to a point. Also it's two diferente versions one with anti slip, the other smooth.

I understand you point about sample variation (and particularly, small sample bias), but that's not the point I'm making.

 

[F-22]

There suprisingly differences in performance between Mac, Faco, Prot, Cman etc. who all have simliar-looking products. Not sure whats up with that, but I recall taking note of it on some of those wrench-test videos. I'd have to go back and see what exactly it was.

Depends on which product. I think for the wrenches in question here, this is not the case. Similarly, the Proto vise grips are the exact same made-in-France vise grips as the ones you can buy from Facom, with a different name laser etched on.

 

[Mr_B]

Looking at the photos of Mac RBRT wrenches, the "details" (with that I assume you mean the lettering) are milled in, exactly same as on the USAG wrenches. The design of the wrench is such to allow for that.

USAG is considered a top-end tool brand. I do not believe there is any functional difference between MAC and USAG unless someone can actually measure it.

If you mean that they forge in the open and closed end on the Mac in one go, but machine the USAG open and closed end after forging, then I'm pretty certain you're wrong. That would make the Mac ones have excessive slop and poor tolerances.

If they have separate forging dies for Mac and USAG and Facom, I do not understand why wouldn't they just forge the letters on, like they do on the regular Facom wrenches? They certainly have the capability of making crisp nice forged lettering. I am quite certain the design of the wrench with the milled letters was made to sell the same wrench under different brand names from the start of their design phase. They use the same die to make all three.

Looking at a mac wrench it hints of forging as can see slight deforming around the large lettering .
I quite agree the design is made be somewhat universal but I can't see major advantage in running one die and adding additional production steps when they got production number limits before die worn out .

 

[T45]

There used to be a snap-on wall art piece, with all the steps of forging. It clearly shows that the business ends are finals-sized by being "cold broached" after forging. This general step of being cold-worked aslo includes the stamping of the sizes.

The broaching and stamping step needs tooling and setup time that cost money. For cheap tools, they skip the mechanical stamping of sizes. This is why all those cheap impacts are only laser-etched.

Presumably the quality of the broaching tools is up to each end user/brand...and you can cut corners if you wish here. Heat treat is also done at this stage, and again, can be done to spec for each brand.