Torque Wrench Myths

[tak1313]

So TTC has done another great video - this time on busting or confirming various myths about torque wrenches. It pretty much falls in line with what I, and I THINK most on this forum knows, but the one that actually surprised me was near the end where they test the effect of anti-seize on the end torque that the nut/bolt sees.

I know it increases the final torque that the nut and/or bolt applies, but I was surprised by how much.

 

[M635_Guy]

It was good to see it all broken down. Nice hat-tip to Tools Tested too...

 

[jayemm]

 

[Jeepster04]

Thats very surprising. I would like to see the difference in putting it on just lug nut threads vs also on the conical portion.

Also, what about bolts like transmission pan bolts? Everything is typically covered in oil down there, so am I over torqueing those bolts too? Im probably one of the few that likes torqueing stuff like that to spec...

 

[oldschoolcraft]

Also, what about bolts like transmission pan bolts? Everything is typically covered in oil down there, so am I over torqueing those bolts too? Im probably one of the few that likes torqueing stuff like that to spec...

speaking of transmission bolt pans, I'm just a home gamer and haven't bought a cordless ratchet yet. I haven't been able to justify spending the money on an M12 ratchet since I probably turn maybe a dozen bolts on my car per year on average

I am looking into replacing my transmission filter and gasket, and there's TWENTY BOLTS. I'll be buying my first M12 ratchet for that.

Also going to need to buy a new small micrometer torque wrench. I only have a 1/2" drive torque wrench currently. I'll need a 1/4" drive and I I'm not going to try to torque 20 fasteners underneath the car with a split beam torque wrench.

But you bring up a good point, it's going to get really oily, how do I dry it out first?

 

[5ubtle]

... I know it increases the final torque clamp load that the nut and/or bolt applies, but I was surprised by how much.

Fixed it for you.

 

[pbon]

On my BMWs, sometimes I will see factory instructions that say to oil the threads and then apply a certain torque or torque plus a certain angle. Same for ARP head studs — they say to use ARP lube and provide a torque spec for using that lube. But I will be more careful in the future with antiseize — I use it here in New England where roads are salted in winter and cars develop rust.

 

[Jeepster04]

speaking of transmission bolt pans, I'm just a home gamer and haven't bought a cordless ratchet yet. I haven't been able to justify spending the money on an M12 ratchet since I probably turn maybe a dozen bolts on my car per year on average

I am looking into replacing my transmission filter and gasket, and there's TWENTY BOLTS. I'll be buying my first M12 ratchet for that.

Also going to need to buy a new small micrometer torque wrench. I only have a 1/2" drive torque wrench currently. I'll need a 1/4" drive and I I'm not going to try to torque 20 fasteners underneath the car with a split beam torque wrench.

But you bring up a good point, it's going to get really oily, how do I dry it out first?

I have one of the M12 ratchets and it works great for taking out all of the pan bolts.

I've always ran a thread chaser (not a tap) in the bolt holes and on the bolts themselves, but I guess I'll add some brake cleaner to the list.

 

[Rusted Nut]

I’m surprised anti-sieze increased torque that much. Still trying to get my brain around how adding a cheater bar decreases torque though. Have to think about that one.

 

[M635_Guy]

speaking of transmission bolt pans, I'm just a home gamer and haven't bought a cordless ratchet yet. I haven't been able to justify spending the money on an M12 ratchet since I probably turn maybe a dozen bolts on my car per year on average

I am looking into replacing my transmission filter and gasket, and there's TWENTY BOLTS. I'll be buying my first M12 ratchet for that.

Also going to need to buy a new small micrometer torque wrench. I only have a 1/2" drive torque wrench currently. I'll need a 1/4" drive and I I'm not going to try to torque 20 fasteners underneath the car with a split beam torque wrench.

But you bring up a good point, it's going to get really oily, how do I dry it out first?

I recently had to do the oil pan on the family Volvo. I used my M12 ratchet to get it out (what was left of it...my middle spawn is talented)

There are friggin' 34 bolts for the dang thing, and the factory instructions said it wanted them all buttoned up in 5 minutes due to the chemical gasket/sealant...

Once I released myself from the idea of getting it done that fast, I just used a drill with a 1/4" extension and the clutch all the way over so it didn't put any torque on them. Then I went back with my torque wrench to get them correctly snugged (can't recall if I used the tiny Icon torque wrench with a 3/8" anvil or the little Tekton 1/4". Both have been great.

On my BMWs, sometimes I will see factory instructions that say to oil the threads and then apply a certain torque or torque plus a certain angle. Same for ARP head studs — they say to use ARP lube and provide a torque spec for using that lube. But I will be more careful in the future with antiseize — I use it here in New England where roads are salted in winter and cars develop rust.

I'm not a technician or anything, but have worked on a variety of family BMW's and have never seen any instructions to oil threads in the various Bentley manuals I have, or in the factory service manual I have for my old M635.

What specifies oiled threads?

I’m surprised anti-sieze increased torque that much. Still trying to get my brain around how adding a cheater bar decreases torque though. Have to think about that one.

The way I'm thinking about it is you're arriving at the point early because you're doing more work with the longer handle. So early leaves you short of the correct moment of torque at the fastener. That makes sense in my brain, but less when I look at it typed out...

 

[pbon]

I have done rod bolts on my former E61 535xi and former E90 M3 and recall that threads had to be oiled prior to torquing. Your old E24 probably does not even have any angle torques. We had a 79 635csi for a long time, eventually with a 94 M30B35 and cam and headers — nice classic but a new Camry will pace it.

 

[oldschoolcraft]

Amazing video! I had never seen or heard of torque adapters before, and now I guess I need them. I'm thinking a 3/8" drive set makes the most sense. I could put them in a 1/4 to 3/8 adapter on a 1/4 torque wrench and in theory, the 1/4 torque wrench is using lower torque than the 3/8 so the adapter should handle it. Or it will shear the adapter off and we'll learn what the shear capability of adapters are.

That actually would be a great torque test channel video, if they haven't done one. Put drive adapters on, and crank on the handle until they shear and then see how different brands fare. I think that TTC guy comes here, so here's how I'd like to see it run if he's reading:

1) Run a 1/4 to 3/8 adapter and find failure point for several brands.

2) Run a 3/8" to 1/4 adapter to fail

3) 3/8 to 1/2

4) 1/2 to 3/8

5) 1/2 to 3/8 to 1/4 - and see if the fail point is equal to that of 3/8 to 1/4 or by virtue of running two, does it change it

6) (1/2 to 3/8) -> (3/8 to 1/4) -> (1/4 -> 3/8) -> (3/8 to 1/2) - one see if the middle adapters, the 1/4 ones fail as we'd expect or is it always going to the end adapter closets to the fastener that fails

Test Parameters:

a) I'd like to see multiples of each brand done since it's possible a single unit has a bad heat treat. If it's expensive and you can't get the manufacturer to send free ones, then warranty it and do it again when the new one comes.

b) I'd like to see different final socket sizes tested. A large and a small for each size. e.g. if you run a 1/4 to 3/8 adapter and then do an 8mm 3/8 drive socket, does it fail any differently compared to 1/4 to 3/8 adapter with a 19mm socket on the end

c) Please invite Vim tools to send you free tools to test. They put out a video this week claiming Project Farm ignores their stuff and offered to send them free tools to test, and they did their own test that showed their ratchet would have come out #1 above all others, by far, in the Project Farm test. I think Vim Tools might be a marketing company that happens to sell tools, so test them out and see where they rank!

 

[wyb2]

I’m surprised anti-sieze increased torque that much. Still trying to get my brain around how adding a cheater bar decreases torque though. Have to think about that one.

They almost explained it in the video, but quickly and not super well.

The pivot point of the click function is slightly off of the pivot point of the ratchet head. The wrench is calibrated to account for this small difference. But when you when you choke up, or extend out, the % change in distance (the ft in ft-lbs) isn’t exactly the same for the two pivot points.

If the wrench measured torque exactly at the ratchet head axis, choking up or adding a cheater wouldn’t make any difference.

 

[CR888]

I've watched a good few TW videos and read hundreds of posts where folks would say it didn't matter if you leave your clicker TW set at whatever setting instead of returning it to zero. Workshop managers would state they leave their big TW set at 450ft-lbs or whatever for truck/trailer tyres and had done so for many years without issue. Other experts, engineers and gun experts claimed that spring tension isn't effected when a spring is stored under preload. They would claim that loaded gun magazines have been found after decades of storage and they work fine so therefore storing your clicker at a setting won't effect it. I've seen hundreds of posts claiming this, I know the core gene pool of intelligence or original thought is small and most just rewrite or repost others info & claim it as their own. But it does show just how far bad info can spread & due to that be considered as fact. When in actual fact it was BS all along.

 

[Sumboodie]

speaking of transmission bolt pans, I'm just a home gamer and haven't bought a cordless ratchet yet. I haven't been able to justify spending the money on an M12 ratchet since I probably turn maybe a dozen bolts on my car per year on average

I am looking into replacing my transmission filter and gasket, and there's TWENTY BOLTS. I'll be buying my first M12 ratchet for that.

Also going to need to buy a new small micrometer torque wrench. I only have a 1/2" drive torque wrench currently. I'll need a 1/4" drive and I I'm not going to try to torque 20 fasteners underneath the car with a split beam torque wrench.

But you bring up a good point, it's going to get really oily, how do I dry it out first?

Speed handle. Or flex head ratchet used as a speed handle.

 

[Sumboodie]

I've watched a good few TW videos and read hundreds of posts where folks would say it didn't matter if you leave your clicker TW set at whatever setting instead of returning it to zero. Workshop managers would state they leave their big TW set at 450ft-lbs or whatever for truck/trailer tyres and had done so for many years without issue. Other experts, engineers and gun experts claimed that spring tension isn't effected when a spring is stored under preload. They would claim that loaded gun magazines have been found after decades of storage and they work fine so therefore storing your clicker at a setting won't effect it. I've seen hundreds of posts claiming this, I know the core gene pool of intelligence or original thought is small and most just rewrite or repost others info & claim it as their own. But it does show just how far bad info can spread & due to that be considered as fact. When in actual fact it was BS all along.

We had to store at lowest setting and cycle 3 times before use in the USAF.
I think at 50%, but it's been near 20yrs so can't recall.

 

[oldschoolcraft]

Speed handle. Or flex head ratchet used as a speed handle.

The car is going to be jacked up 6" from from the ground. I'll barely have room for myself, let alone a speed handle

I guess I could install a 4 ton lift so I could use a speed handle but a cordless ratchet seems cheaper


Then again I could get a 4 ton lift AND a cordless ratchet. GJ is a bad influence on me!

 

[cannuck]

I don't have the time or patience to watch the whole video, but from the few places I checked in, shouldn't be any surprises. When there is mention of anti-seize changing values it is an indication someone might stumble onto so actual facts. I temper everything to do with fastener torque with the fact that the thread, washer and hole conditions vary far greater than the accuracy range of any torque wrench, so getting all knotted up about how accurate the tool is can be a total waste of time if you don't control the fastener surface conditions.

Getting down to the actual tools: I absolutely HATE clicker style wrenches (although I have a few) because their rigid handles can induce torque along the beam that gets measured as torque at the drive. If you go back many decades, the split beam wrenches we all had in our toolboxes had floating handles to put the force into the bending beam at the right place with no separate bending moment being introduced. My favourite split beams are my old Repco (rebadged Warren & Brown) stuff that uses a round knob on the smaller wrenches to minimize grip induced error.

The other thing I despise about clickers is the spring thing. Anyone who works with metallic springs knows they have a very finite lifespan and can take a set in only a small number of deflections. So, they absolutely MUST be stored unloaded.

If I were to build a non-electronic torque wrench (series), it would be composite split beams, wedge adjustment in soft metal so the hard pointed trigger would leave a witness mark on overtorque (per W&B) with floating handle and torque limiting drive inserts (again as per W&B). Hard to beat the visible/tactile/audible trigger of that design.

 

[Sumboodie]

The car is going to be jacked up 6" from from the ground. I'll barely have room for myself, let alone a speed handle

I guess I could install a 4 ton lift so I could use a speed handle but a cordless ratchet seems cheaper


Then again I could get a 4 ton lift AND a cordless ratchet. GJ is a bad influence on me!

Or jack the car up like a normal person.

 

[cannuck]

Or jack the car up like a normal person.

How do YOU jack up a normal person????

 

[oldschoolcraft]

How do YOU jack up a normal person????

Glad you said "up"

 

[Rusted Nut]

They almost explained it in the video, but quickly and not super well.

The pivot point of the click function is slightly off of the pivot point of the ratchet head. The wrench is calibrated to account for this small difference. But when you when you choke up, or extend out, the % change in distance (the ft in ft-lbs) isn’t exactly the same for the two pivot points.

If the wrench measured torque exactly at the ratchet head axis, choking up or adding a cheater wouldn’t make any difference.

Good explanation, helped me get brain around that one; makes total sense now.

 

[cannuck]

Glad you said "up"

are we back on the Jeopardy thread?

 

[dnschmidt]

I'm pretty sure that the fact that oil pan bolts have oil on them is understood by the manufacturer and that it is accounted for in the torque spec. Besides these are very low spec torque bolts and a few N-m here or there isn't going to matter as much as consistent torque.

 

[dchawk81]

The car is going to be jacked up 6" from from the ground. I'll barely have room for myself, let alone a speed handle

I guess I could install a 4 ton lift so I could use a speed handle but a cordless ratchet seems cheaper


Then again I could get a 4 ton lift AND a cordless ratchet. GJ is a bad influence on me!

IMHO Volvo/Mack did it right on their MP8/D13 engine. The gasket goes on dry and the bolts have springs to mostly prevent over or under tightening. Just run the bolt in until the spring is fully compressed and you're good.

I'm sure there's a torque spec but still that's a good way to prevent *******, IMHO.

 

[dnschmidt]

A POINT
TTC showed conclusively that if you store a cheap HF torque wrench at it's full value that this screws up the calibration. I store such a wrench in my trunk at 75 ft-lb (which I believe is half full value on the 1/2" el cheapo HF torque wrench) and have noticed no change whatsoever over several years of such storage when measured with a digital torque adapter. 75 ft-lb is the lug nut spec for my Camry that's why its set to that value.

 

[oldschoolcraft]

I'm pretty sure that the fact that oil pan bolts have oil on them is understood by the manufacturer and that it is accounted for in the torque spec. Besides these are very low spec torque bolts and a few N-m here or there isn't going to matter as much as consistent torque.

But how about when the car is initially being manufactured? Would they have two torque specs? One that they only give to the factory workers which would be much higher to account for being dry?

Or would they have the factory workers drench the fasteners in oil before applying them?

 

[KnurledNut]

Did a transmission pressure switch manifold R&R (bolts to the valve body) at work this week. Went ahead and changed the filter and bushing since it had to be removed anyway. Bolts were like 15 lbf. The old oil on the bolts helps run them through the rubber gasket. Run em in by hand, click it and ship it.

 

[PCustoms]

I don't have the time or patience to watch the whole video, but from the few places I checked in, shouldn't be any surprises.

I didn't watch it, and scanned most of the posts until I got to this one, as it's spot on.

This "phenomenon" has been well published in engineering handbooks for years. Apparently unless it's on YouTube most people won't believe/accept it though...

 

[Sumboodie]

How do YOU jack up a normal person????

High enough to do the job. Most jack stands go 16-18"

 

[Sumboodie]

Glad you said "up"

English isn't my first language, sorry.

 

[FigN⋅m]

I didn't watch it, and scanned most of the posts until I got to this one, as it's spot on.

This "phenomenon" has been well published in engineering handbooks for years. Apparently unless it's on YouTube most people won't believe/accept it though...

Well as thoroughly exciting as a technical manual can be to read in one's spare time,
sometimes a little entertainment value goes a long way to help educate/inform some folks.
The video currently has 92K views - I doubt all of those viewers are seasoned super mechanics
that have forgotten more than most people know. TTC's contributions to the sport have value.

 

[slowtwitch73]

I've watched a good few TW videos and read hundreds of posts where folks would say it didn't matter if you leave your clicker TW set at whatever setting instead of returning it to zero. Workshop managers would state they leave their big TW set at 450ft-lbs or whatever for truck/trailer tyres and had done so for many years without issue. Other experts, engineers and gun experts claimed that spring tension isn't effected when a spring is stored under preload. They would claim that loaded gun magazines have been found after decades of storage and they work fine so therefore storing your clicker at a setting won't effect it. I've seen hundreds of posts claiming this, I know the core gene pool of intelligence or original thought is small and most just rewrite or repost others info & claim it as their own. But it does show just how far bad info can spread & due to that be considered as fact. When in actual fact it was BS all along.

When the manual that comes with the wrench says to store at zero, probably a good reason to do it.

AND on top of that, what does it hurt to return to zero?

 

[slowtwitch73]

A POINT
TTC showed conclusively that if you store a cheap HF torque wrench at it's full value that this screws up the calibration. I store such a wrench in my trunk at 75 ft-lb (which I believe is half full value on the 1/2" el cheapo HF torque wrench) and have noticed no change whatsoever over several years of such storage when measured with a digital torque adapter. 75 ft-lb is the lug nut spec for my Camry that's why its set to that value.

Doesn't prove anything.

- 'have noticed no change'... maybe there was change that wasn't noticed.

- Digital torque adapter.... many of those are rubbish.

 

[BlitzcrankJapan]

Doesn't prove anything.

- 'have noticed no change'... maybe there was change that wasn't noticed.

- Digital torque adapter.... many of those are rubbish.

Just like the video. It doesn't really prove anything. But it is definitely interesting to see.

I too often store torque wrenches at around 30-50% of their max torque and have sent several back for recalibration after 3+ years. All have come back as still being in calibration with no adjustment needed. All my torque wrenches are quality made in GB or made in Japan. So when we are talking about sensitive springs and their ability to hold specifications over long periods of time I think the quality of them is a big factor.

How many of us have seen the 'cheap' 4wd or car springs sag after just a year or so? Vs the quality ones that still seem to maintain level after many years.

 

[Wrench97]

speaking of transmission bolt pans, I'm just a home gamer and haven't bought a cordless ratchet yet. I haven't been able to justify spending the money on an M12 ratchet since I probably turn maybe a dozen bolts on my car per year on average

I am looking into replacing my transmission filter and gasket, and there's TWENTY BOLTS. I'll be buying my first M12 ratchet for that.

Also going to need to buy a new small micrometer torque wrench. I only have a 1/2" drive torque wrench currently. I'll need a 1/4" drive and I I'm not going to try to torque 20 fasteners underneath the car with a split beam torque wrench.

But you bring up a good point, it's going to get really oily, how do I dry it out first?

Wrong place to use it, 1/4" hand ratchet is all you need.

 

[Wrench97]

I'm pretty sure that the fact that oil pan bolts have oil on them is understood by the manufacturer and that it is accounted for in the torque spec. Besides these are very low spec torque bolts and a few N-m here or there isn't going to matter as much as consistent torque.

And when the manual says clean and dry?

 

[Plombob]

I recently had to do the oil pan on the family Volvo. I used my M12 ratchet to get it out (what was left of it...my middle spawn is talented)

There are friggin' 34 bolts for the dang thing, and the factory instructions said it wanted them all buttoned up in 5 minutes due to the chemical gasket/sealant...

Once I released myself from the idea of getting it done that fast, I just used a drill with a 1/4" extension and the clutch all the way over so it didn't put any torque on them. Then I went back with my torque wrench to get them correctly snugged (can't recall if I used the tiny Icon torque wrench with a 3/8" anvil or the little Tekton 1/4". Both have been great.


I'm not a technician or anything, but have worked on a variety of family BMW's and have never seen any instructions to oil threads in the various Bentley manuals I have, or in the factory service manual I have for my old M635.

What specifies oiled threads?


The way I'm thinking about it is you're arriving at the point early because you're doing more work with the longer handle. So early leaves you short of the correct moment of torque at the fastener. That makes sense in my brain, but less when I look at it typed out...

Home Despot has their 3/8" battery powered ratchet on sale for $55 or less. I haven't had a chance to try it out yet, but it should work well on trans pan bolts.

 

[Renegade1LI]

I think GM should have watched this, I have a buddy that works at chevy, says it's ugly when they come apart.

New Service Bulletin Issued for 2023-2024 Corvette Transmissions Over Improperly Torqued Fasteners - Corvette: Sales, News & Lifestyle

GM has issued a new service bulletin over the 2023-2024 Corvette's DCT Transmission in which the transmission fasteners were improperly torqued, and it requires dealers installing a new transmission.

www.corvetteblogger.com

 

[roofdweller49]

c) Please invite Vim tools to send you free tools to test. They put out a video this week claiming Project Farm ignores their stuff and offered to send them free tools to test, and they did their own test that showed their ratchet would have come out #1 above all others, by far, in the Project Farm test. I think Vim Tools might be a marketing company that happens to sell tools, so test them out and see where they rank!

I feel like that's a reason NOT to test them when they want the free marketing

- Digital torque adapter.... many of those are rubbish.

I thought those are pretty consistent because of how they work