A friend needs some help tracing a circuit from a receptacle to the breaker panel. The receptacle has no power and none of the the breaker are tripped, how should we proceed?
Tracing a circuit?
- Thread starter 930dreamer
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Higgins
Well-known member
Do you know which breaker it is? For Sure ??
Try resetting it. Turn it off, the back on!
Try resetting it. Turn it off, the back on!
readhead
Well-known member
Test for power at the breaker. Do the easy stuff first.
OP
None of the breakers are labeled.
tapered-pin
Well-known member
Could be on a GFCI circuit and the outlet is tripped.
picture of the wiring in the box?
where is the outlet located?
on a neighbors house testing the gfci outlet in his upstairs bathroom will turn off the hall outlet and the hall light.
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OP
Outlet runs the hot water circulatory in the garage, going over to have a look in a bit.
justsam
Well-known member
If this is a garage outlet in a newer home it most likely has a GFCI. I would check for a tripped GFCI first, as has been mentioned. Are there other outlets that are also dead? If breakers are not labeled spend a little time with your friend and get things labeled to save future grief!
OP
Older home, I doubt it has any GFCI's but I'll know in a bit, I can use a circuit tracer on powered circuits and start labeling the panel?
I have used a really long extension cord back to the panel to do continuity test so that I can identify and label the breaker...and the neutral. Whole house electricity shut off of cause, and the usual common sense stuff... I hate that tracer I have.
tapered-pin
Well-known member
+1 the circuit tracer I have is inaccurate also. I get false readings (multiple breakers hit on the trace) or no readings all the time in a panel..
readhead
Well-known member
Labeled or not, check all the breakers to make sure voltage is coming through.
OP
Ok, bare with me on this.
What I did was disconnect the black wire from the plug with no power (checked with meter) attached another wire to it from my spool and went to the panel.
I then turned off the main and went down each breaker, turned each one off and checked for continuity.
(8) breakers showed continuity.
What I did was disconnect the black wire from the plug with no power (checked with meter) attached another wire to it from my spool and went to the panel.
I then turned off the main and went down each breaker, turned each one off and checked for continuity.
(8) breakers showed continuity.
OP
Ok, will try that. Even with the main off?
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Ahhh ... if there is no power at the outlet, when a tracing signal injected at the outlet should find no signal at the panel !
If injecting a signal at the outlet, the main breaker should be off ! With luck, you should be able to use the receiver to follow the wire to the previous junction/outlet. If that one functions, you know the 2 end points of the failed circuit.
Circuits don't fail in between junction (unless someone has been in the wall with a saw) so check the connection at each box.
yes with the mains off is to protect yourself and equipment, with the individual breaker off is to isolate the circuits so they don't share the bus and give you a false reading in this case you have...... It's simple just pop all of them off and probe for continuity and see which one rings... should only be one... if that is what it is called. The breaker don't have to pop off the seat, just off. Neutral on the other hand you have to check with it off the screw. Ground...
If you get a beep most likely means your hot connections is good... you sure it is not the neutral problem or the problem with that particular plug/socket/switch? if anything else I don't know if you want to open that can of worms... they better be really good friends.... Also a continuity test doesn't detect if the wires are partial loose those kinda stuff...
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OP
We just need to find what breaker the wire is attached to.
jdieter
Well-known member
first thing I'd do after the obvious, gfci tripped and all breakers functional is use a capacitive test checking if the hot or neutral is open. After that you may need to look at a logical way the wire would have been ran and start checking continuity on the offending wire keeping in mind there could be junction boxes in an attic, basement or crawlspace beyond joints made in device boxes.
OP
We turned all the circuit off and the main, then turned each one on and checked for continuity. Only one toned with the mm. I then removed the circuit breaker and tested it, it was bad and now it works? I replaced the breaker and still no power to the plug, all the neutrals and grounds are on the same grounding bar.
To check the ground and neutral wire I'd need to remove all the wires from the ground bar and check one at a time?
I also noticed that the plumber who replaced this plug has the hot/ neutral reversed. On some of the plugs the black/hot is attached to the short slot on the plug others its not? No reversed Hot/Neutral when we checked all the plugs in the house.
Two plugs have open grounds. One in the kitchen and the other in a bathroom, fixed that by adding a ground wire to the ground loop in the box and attaching it to the plug.
To check the ground and neutral wire I'd need to remove all the wires from the ground bar and check one at a time?
I also noticed that the plumber who replaced this plug has the hot/ neutral reversed. On some of the plugs the black/hot is attached to the short slot on the plug others its not? No reversed Hot/Neutral when we checked all the plugs in the house.
Two plugs have open grounds. One in the kitchen and the other in a bathroom, fixed that by adding a ground wire to the ground loop in the box and attaching it to the plug.
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OP
Updated results ^^^^
On these type of troubleshooting, I usually also check for shorts or open on the neutral.... I had that problem..with an open neutral on a circuit that it seems to read fine sometimes, and some times not, it was a loose neutral wire nut on one of the parallel plugs...
Here is what I do not sure what pros do, and I don't have a fancy megger meters or that other one....just a multimeter and a contact less sensor or the old fashion test light screw driver like thing....
With everything off and all breakers off..
I check continuity to identify the Hot , Neutral and Ground... Yes I have to isolate the hot and neutral wires, Since ground is bonded to neutral most of the times, checking continuity of the neutral sometimes give false positives. Ground, it's just ground, I don't isolate.
with thing connected (make sure nothing is connected like lights , motor on the circuit), Then check for continuity between hot and neutral, hot and ground. and you can also check between neutral and ground...
I then run that wire back to the panel, and check for hot have a beep, just the neutral disconnected the wire from the panel have a been, and ground have a beep...
If everything works, and you have put everything back... the hot wire should at least beep with the contact less sensor stick on the plug end. If it does most likely you have some sort of open neutral or ground... or you can verify at the panel with the wire and carefully probe to see if you have 120V on that circuit between the wire you run back to the panel and the neutral bar....
anything else beyond that I usually just opening up all the connections and verify all the wire nuts...
Of cause common sense safety applies.
Toomanytools?
Well-known member
Well there is the problem he had the Plummer doing electrical.
OP
CJ7VFR
Well-known member
Zip-zip and you are done!
Sometimes just running a new wire is the easiest, fastest, and less headache inducing way to get it done.
Nice job!
Jim