Tried getting stuck manifold bolt out... Welded extractor inside

[jzx100]

So I had a broken stud in my aluminum head, roughly m8 in size, flush to the head... I tried welding a washer and nut to it to extract it out but it kept breaking off. after 8 tries of this, I decided to drill it out, and I got an extractor to grab on it but it immediately broke off into the hole.

I then tried to weld it again, same story, nut and washed broke off.... Now, the bolt is some unholy mixture of hardened tool steel and now I simply cannot get my cobalt drill bits to even put a divot in it.

What's the next step? I really don't want to pull the head off, my entire build has grinded to a halt because of this one damn bolt. I'm at a loss. I've been looking at getting a carbide bit, or better welding wire? I was using a harbor freight mig170 and some cheapo flux core.

 

[ArcReactorKC]

This isn't the answer you want but it is the guarantee. Yank the head and take it to a machine shop. This should be easy work for any experienced machinist with a decent mill. Having the broken extractor in there is going to make it difficult to do with hand tools.

Do you know what the extractor was made out of? Hopefully not carbide.

 

[Omnirod]

This isn't the answer you want but it is the guarantee. Yank the head and take it to a machine shop. This should be easy work for any experienced machinist with a decent mill. Having the broken extractor in there is going to make it difficult to do with hand tools.

Do you know what the extractor was made out of? Hopefully not carbide.

Oh don't do that.

 

[Omnirod]

Watch this and give it a try.

 

[jzx100]

This isn't the answer you want but it is the guarantee. Yank the head and take it to a machine shop. This should be easy work for any experienced machinist with a decent mill. Having the broken extractor in there is going to make it difficult to do with hand tools.

Do you know what the extractor was made out of? Hopefully not carbide.

This is a very rare engine that's hard to get head gaskets or studs for. Unfortunately I would not like to go this route...

Watch this and give it a try.

I'll give that a try, but I'd like to drill... I'm not sure if it's able to come out anymore.

 

[P0234]

Been there done that, not in a head thankfully. Your choice is to grind it out using something harder than the bit stuck in there or to take it to a fancy machine shop that has a EDM machine:

 

[Omnirod]

This is a very rare engine that's hard to get head gaskets or studs for. Unfortunately I would not like to go this route...

I'll give that a try, but I'd like to drill... I'm not sure if it's able to come out anymore.

Well, you can't F it up anymore. What's the worst that could happen? If that doesn't work, you can use a ball burr and grind out the remnants of that bolt extractor.

 

[jzx100]

Been there done that, not in a head thankfully. Your choice is to grind it out using something harder than the bit stuck in there or to take it to a fancy machine shop that has a EDM machine:

Well, you can't F it up anymore. What's the worst that could happen? If that doesn't work, you can use a ball burr and grind out the remnants of that bolt extractor.

I think my blurry pic is misleading... I think the bit is now fused into the stud, now the entire thing is just hard as all hell.

This isn't the answer you want but it is the guarantee. Yank the head and take it to a machine shop. This should be easy work for any experienced machinist with a decent mill. Having the broken extractor in there is going to make it difficult to do with hand tools.

Do you know what the extractor was made out of? Hopefully not carbide.

I think it's made out of HSS, but my damn cobalt bits aren't doing jack to it. Am I drilling wrong? What amount of pressure should I use, and should I put some motor oil on it while drilling?

 

[P0234]

Lol.. motor oil isn't going to help a bit cut any more. Carbide is also harder than cobalt.....

 

[jzx100]

Lol.. motor oil isn't going to help a bit cut any more. Carbide is also harder than cobalt.....

I'll grab some cutting earl and some carbide bits then.

 

[P0234]

I'll grab some cutting earl and some carbide bits then.

Sorry if it wasn't clear, I'm betting your extractor was carbide. Cobalt should should make a dent in HSS.

The oil at this point is of no value until you get something that bites into it. I'm no pro but I did look at a few machinist forums and if it in fact is carbide, you need EDM. Breaking it by cracking it is a possibility in some cases, IMO, not yours. Especially since you are dealing with what you say is a rare engine. Time for a pro....

 

[jzx100]

Sorry if it wasn't clear, I'm betting your extractor was carbide. Cobalt should should make a dent in HSS.

Yeah, listing says it's M2 HSS, which is probably why it broke so fast. I thought cobalt would chew through it too but it's not even making a dent.

 

[ArcReactorKC]

If it is HSS, carbide will cut it. Heavy even pressure at a low rpm is key here. Carbide is hard, not "strong" if you run a carbide drill at high speed and it catches it could shatter quite easily. With good even pressure at a low speed it will peel off material.

I would suggest using a burr to attempt and create a pocket in the extractor/bolt combo you've got now and then attack it with a left handed carbide drill.

The biggest worry there is that if you do get a carbide drill broken off and stuck in the hole EDM becomes your only option.

 

[Omnirod]

I think my blurry pic is misleading... I think the bit is now fused into the stud, now the entire thing is just hard as all hell.


I think it's made out of HSS, but my damn cobalt bits aren't doing jack to it. Am I drilling wrong? What amount of pressure should I use, and should I put some motor oil on it while drilling?

Don't stress, everything will be just fine Do you want to try some science? AvE had a great video on this, but it's gone for some reason. You can silicone one of those little paper cups over the broken stud/extractor mess, and let it dry. Cut a hole in the cup (maybe first?) and fill with your alum and water mixture. Use a low powered incandescent bulb for heat, and let it do it's thing overnight. I guess if you wanted it to go faster, you could make a metal cup and then really put the BTU's to it.

 

[Omnirod]

If it is HSS, carbide will cut it. Heavy even pressure at a low rpm is key here. Carbide is hard, not "strong" if you run a carbide drill at high speed and it catches it could shatter quite easily. With good even pressure at a low speed it will peel off material.

I would suggest using a burr to attempt and create a pocket in the extractor/bolt combo you've got now and then attack it with a left handed carbide drill.

The biggest worry there is that if you do get a carbide drill broken off and stuck in the hole EDM becomes your only option.

Sorry, but left handed drill bits do not work on seized fasteners. If an extractor broke off in it, a left handed bit will not grab the broken stud and spin it out.

 

[Wrench97]

Turn the heat up a bit and keep welding.

 

[ArcReactorKC]

Sorry, but left handed drill bits do not work on seized fasteners. If an extractor broke off in it, a left handed bit will not grab the broken stud and spin it out.

Cool... many years in front of a bridgeport say otherwise.

 

[Omnirod]

Cool... many years in front of a bridgeport say otherwise.

I'm sorry, but an M8 or M10 stud that broke off in an aluminum cylinder head because of dissimilar metal corrosion is not going to just come out with a left handed drill bit. Fasteners that have been sheared off or twisted off because of overtorque, sure the possibility is there. In this scenario, it isn't going to happen.

 

[gorilla]

Not long ago I was asked to remove a broken extractor from a aluminum casting. I ground it out with some small diamond burr's I got at Harbor Freight. None of them were bigger than 1/8" diameter which helped controlling the damage to the hole.

 

[csp]

I've had luck with diamond burrs/bits meant to drill glass. HD carries them.

 

[jzx100]

Stacked up some weld on it, ground it flat, then I punched a center on it and I started drilling... Got through what I felt like was the new weld, and all my new drill bits just stop DEAD right at the stud. Am I doing something wrong here? I'm using oil, low pressure, high pressure, I'm straight on it, punching holes.... I'm running out of options here

 

[scooby074]

guessing that the stud is work hardened . id pull the head or complete engine and goto a machine shop

 

[Jswain]

I think you're trying the wrong process. Keep welding. Clean it very well, clean all the zinc/rust off the washer. Weld all around the inner diameter of the washer, then weld a nut to the washer. You have to keep the gun tip pushed into the hole while you're welding the nut, weld the nut hot as possible.

Sometimes it works best to cool it completely before you try, sometimes you want to cool it some and soak it in some penetrant, sometimes work it hot, sometimes you only get a 1/16th of a turn then you need to heat it again(torch or more welds. After welding the nut a few taps with a hammer usually helps as well.

The good thing about welding is you won't ruin the aluminum head, get careless with a carbide/drill and you WILL be pulling the head

Gas & solid core wire would make it easier, make sure between welds you're cleaning all the previous flux

 

[tool_scrounge]

I have seem folks who ran EDM services that would go to your facility and EDM out broken tools, etc. in situ. That seems like what you need.

 

[jzx100]

I have seem folks who ran EDM services that would go to your facility and EDM out broken tools, etc. in situ. That seems like what you need.

How much does that cost?

I think you're trying the wrong process. Keep welding. Clean it very well, clean all the zinc/rust off the washer. Weld all around the inner diameter of the washer, then weld a nut to the washer. You have to keep the gun tip pushed into the hole while you're welding the nut, weld the nut hot as possible.

Sometimes it works best to cool it completely before you try, sometimes you want to cool it some and soak it in some penetrant, sometimes work it hot, sometimes you only get a 1/16th of a turn then you need to heat it again(torch or more welds. After welding the nut a few taps with a hammer usually helps as well.

The good thing about welding is you won't ruin the aluminum head, get careless with a carbide/drill and you WILL be pulling the head

Gas & solid core wire would make it easier, make sure between welds you're cleaning all the previous flux

Yeah, I mean I could probably keep trying but I feel like that bolt is jammed so well in there that even if I got a perfect weld in, it would just break the nut again.

 

[Jswain]

How much does that cost?

Yeah, I mean I could probably keep trying but I feel like that bolt is jammed so well in there that even if I got a perfect weld in, it would just break the nut again.

I feel like those ones that keep breaking the nut off(and the weld was solid) usually do better with heat after the welding. If you have a torch make it red. If not then after the nut is welded on flush with the outside of the nut keep welding to soak it with more heat. Even if it deforms the nut and you need to use locking pliers etc.

I wanted to give up on this one, underneath an old Murano, rear control arm bolt on the front D's control arm, had to access it thru the hole. More nuts then in the photo, and finally on the one that got it just made a creeek and finally moved a touch then worked it back and forth & out.

 

[f121]

This is a very rare engine that's hard to get head gaskets or studs for. Unfortunately I would not like to go this route...

How easy is it to get a replacement head if you slip with the drill and run it off into the aluminium?

 

[tool_scrounge]

How much does that cost?

Yeah, I mean I could probably keep trying but I feel like that bolt is jammed so well in there that even if I got a perfect weld in, it would just break the nut again.

Sorry, I have never used one of the mobile EDM tap removal services personally. You should use Google and see if there is one in your part of the world.

There are people who make your own

But in your case I do not recommend a cheap homemade solution. You need it done quite accurately to remove the bolt without damaging the female threads.

 

[dutchgray]

Just keep trying to weld nuts on and get it out with heat, hammer hits, maybe try heating and then cool the bolt but not the alloy head. If you can't get it like this then the next best option will be to remove the head and have a pro do it, likely EDM.

You won't drill it by hand since you have welded a slug of broken extractor into it.

You might be able to grind it away with a carbide burr.

 

[Rusted Nut]

What about leaving the broken stud in place and just welding a new stud on to the broken piece? Wouldn’t be my first choice, but if you can’t get a head gaskets and don’t want to pull the head, it’s an option. Get the appropriate sized bolt, grind a flute on one side so you have more surface for weld bead.

 

[Omnirod]

Stacked up some weld on it, ground it flat, then I punched a center on it and I started drilling... Got through what I felt like was the new weld, and all my new drill bits just stop DEAD right at the stud. Am I doing something wrong here? I'm using oil, low pressure, high pressure, I'm straight on it, punching holes.... I'm running out of options here

Like I said, either go with the DeBoss Garage technique, or get some alum at Bulk Barn/Amazon and dissolve the stud.

 

[gorilla]

Screw extractors are harder than drill bits you will never be able to drill it out. Your chances of using a carbide drill in a hand held drill are zero or less. You could grind it out with a small stone or a diamond burr but it's difficult to keep on center and not mess up the aluminum. After you extract it you will most likely need to install a thread repair device.

 

[scooby074]

Whats the head off?

 

[Sumboodie]

If you drilled it out why did you jam an extractor in there?

 

[jzx100]

Whats the head off?

It's off a Toyota 1g-gte. Very obscure and old engine.

If you drilled it out why did you jam an extractor in there?

I don't know. I made a mistake, and now I'm more than suffering the consequences.

 

[jzx100]

Screw extractors are harder than drill bits you will never be able to drill it out. Your chances of using a carbide drill in a hand held drill are zero or less. You could grind it out with a small stone or a diamond burr but it's difficult to keep on center and not mess up the aluminum. After you extract it you will most likely need to install a thread repair device.

What if I made a jig or something? Either 3d printed or made one out of wood? Something to just keep it straight on

 

[txvwnut]

If you got good weld on it the second time keep stacking, you could even weld a nut to the bead, and get it glowing red hot then leave it the **** alone. Let it cool overnight then try and remove the stud. The thermal expansion and contraction should break the bond between the head and the stud. For an 8mil stud you should just about have your welder dimed out to get good penetration on that stud.

 

[f121]

What if I made a jig or something? Either 3d printed or made one out of wood? Something to just keep it straight on

You could use the manifold to make a jig, although I’d probably make it out of steel. A similar concept to this jig for Porsche engines: https://verboten-motorsport.com/pro...g-kit-not-suitable-for-gt3-turbo-or-cayman-r/

 

[ArcReactorKC]

Wild thought, I dont know how much room you have but if there are decent threads in the head you cold bolt a sizeable chunk of steel to the head and then use a mag drill

 

[jzx100]

If you got good weld on it the second time keep stacking, you could even weld a nut to the bead, and get it glowing red hot then leave it the **** alone. Let it cool overnight then try and remove the stud. The thermal expansion and contraction should break the bond between the head and the stud. For an 8mil stud you should just about have your welder dimed out to get good penetration on that stud.

I think extraction is out of the question since it broke an extractor trying to get it out. I just want to drill and helicoil. Or dissolve or whatever