Trouble Bonding Laminate to Shower Stall Wall
- Thread starter lund
- Start date
Many things will stick to fiberglass
Basic fiberglass itself is not too hard to bond to ... but, unfortunately, I think the shower stall is some different composite material.
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Update for anyone interested: I bought an ~1/4" thick sheet of white PVC tonight after work that is pretty flat and should stay that way when cut. It may not be as good a color match. But I do not care at this point. I should be able to cutout what I need from that, radius the edge etc and better seal the edge seam after gluing with white silicone caulk -- if necessary. I will see if I can find *something* to bond the 22" x 14" pvc sheet well enough without the surface tension curl in the sheet to the shower stall wall using test scraps. If it does not bond well enough, I can put a few stainless pan head sheet metal screws around the perimeter and combined with the edge caulking that may be enough.
What was that debate that the world will end in fire or ice? I think the real answer is it will end in PLASTIC !!
What was that debate that the world will end in fire or ice? I think the real answer is it will end in PLASTIC !!
signcrafter
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- May 9, 2012
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First, laminate counter material does not belong in a shower. Here is a shower surround for 109 dollars, https://www.homedepot.com/p/Delta-P...Surrounds-in-High-Gloss-White-40154/204338479, I would have done this before trying to scab in pieces not meant to be in wet locations and failing many times. You could have installed this in one day and been to painting the next. And been cheaper then all the materials and adhesives you spent money on.
DGersic
Well-known member
If it is fibre reinforced plastic, you might need something like this.
But I don’t think this can be used on a plastic to plastic bond. It needs a porous substrate to cure.
Thanks.
I agree it would have been wiser + cheaper and faster in the end to rip out the full surround and replace. I was not aware those could be bought without the tub. I am a little apprehensive on the tub to surround interface and the sizing though: the present one is designed for the specific tub made years ago. I am not sure it would interface and size well to mate with the replacement. But if so, that would be a much more optimal solution, since if the tub looked a bit different shade wise from the surround, that should be ok.
But my motivation here was a temp repair for a while before rebuilding it much better.
I agree the laminate was a mistake and I have retreated from that. The laminate backing glues well, but the edge can absorb water and is not designed for continuous water exposure. So it was a poor choice to try. So now I am trying a thin 1/4" pvc sheet, and I am experimenting with bonding methods before retry. The bonding issue is on the surface of the stall surround material: most adhesives adhere well enough to the laminate backing ... which is not surprising since it is designed to be glued with contact cement.
The one small "positive" from this bonding fiasco is I now have a collection of adhesives to glue anything BUT the stall composite material. Oh well, live and learn. If I still can after the glue fumes destroy my few remaining brain cells ...
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Update: I repeated my bonding experiment with 2-part epoxy adhesive with better prep on a test spot on the shower/tub surround assembly. The better surface prep improved things a little, but the bond was still not strong. I could easily peel it off of the bonding surface with a razor blade. So I am skeptical it can work well enough. I think this makes it unlikely that the material is usual fiberglass.
I am presently testing silicon (improved prep) adhesion and pvc cement since I will be trying to bond a pvc sheet rather than countertop type laminate now. The pvc sheet is ~1/4" thick, light enough, and does not tend to curl up. I will put a few pan head top screws in it if I cannot get it to bond well and just use this as in intrem to doing a more complete tile rebuild or replacing the surround assembly more fully.
At this point I may be wasting more time ...
I am presently testing silicon (improved prep) adhesion and pvc cement since I will be trying to bond a pvc sheet rather than countertop type laminate now. The pvc sheet is ~1/4" thick, light enough, and does not tend to curl up. I will put a few pan head top screws in it if I cannot get it to bond well and just use this as in intrem to doing a more complete tile rebuild or replacing the surround assembly more fully.
At this point I may be wasting more time ...
You know you are.
Sheeze. You guys are optimistic !!!
I admit that I have gotten to the point now between this and a past bad experience, that I hate plastic/composite bonding problems.
Nope, just realistic and know that there's certain jobs where it's better to rip it down to the studs and do what I want in the long run now.
At this point I'd use white duct tape, keep and eye on it and start ordering materials for the bathroom reno.
signcrafter
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I don't know how well these would work on the thin shower surround but I use them for frp installs in commercial kitchens. If they will hold in the thin surround material they would be better then self tapers.
Youngandfree
Well-known member
Flexseal tape
Ha ... my wife says I am stubborn. Go figure.
You are probably right. Especially given it would be instant to tape and one could retape it a few times if it takes a while to get started.
Something curious now that I think about it: The easy release type blue 3M type painters tape seems to adhere very well to the surround material when I was using it to position clamp pads. I would not be surprised if plastic duct tape did even better. This kind of drives to insult level (ok, here I extrapolate the surface hates me) that more serious attempts at bonding have been failing so awfully.
Back in college, I think pre-flex seal, there was an incident in the shower where the shelf and a few tiles were knocked loose.
Trash bag and some duct tape for us through to Monday, then they decided a lot more tiles were loose (drywall? Was rotted) so they used a plastic sheet and more duct tape for a few weeks until they could schedule repairs
Thanks. This is a good idea.
Oddly, there is a too small access plate behind where I can probably barely reach behind and back washer + nut a through bolt so I was just going to use stainless pan head bolts rather than self-tappers (agree small one might not hold well in the surround material). But this might be as good with less risk (not sure I can reach) and easier to do.
Update: My improved prep bond + cure test of 2 part epoxy was not so good: the bond was indeed better with improved surface prep on the test part of the surround wall. BUT the bond to the pvc sheet material that I want to now use in place of the laminate was very poor (trade one problem for another ...). Silicone also bonded surprisingly ok on the surround too with good surface prep, but again, the silicone bond was poor on the pvc material. What had best overall success bonding to *both* the surround and the pvc sheet was pvc cement. That working well on the surround material was a good surprise, and it working well on the pvc sheet material was no surprise. Results were good both with and without using surface activator (primer) often used with pvc cement on plumbing.
I ordered Weld-On 719 extra heavy body and slow set pvc cement and I will try that with a long duration clamp to set. I will likely sand and use surface activator (will need to avoid drips .... messy stuff). The slow set product is to avoid the adhesive cureing during setup. I am apprehensive about this product curing in the central parts of the 22"x14" sheet, but I will clamp it for a few days and keep it warm. I am more optimistic this can work well enough to avoid using perimeter screws. But I will see ...
Is there a Garage Journal dumb fiasco award?
I ordered Weld-On 719 extra heavy body and slow set pvc cement and I will try that with a long duration clamp to set. I will likely sand and use surface activator (will need to avoid drips .... messy stuff). The slow set product is to avoid the adhesive cureing during setup. I am apprehensive about this product curing in the central parts of the 22"x14" sheet, but I will clamp it for a few days and keep it warm. I am more optimistic this can work well enough to avoid using perimeter screws. But I will see ...
Is there a Garage Journal dumb fiasco award?
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K13
Well-known member
Jesus you could have had the thing tiled and grouted in this amount of time.
I think you got pissed when somebody called this a hack job, unfortunately that's exactly what it is at this point
Nah. Not pissed. I thought it was funny. Humor does not work well in posts like these. But I am not sure if I get the snarkiness -- if that is what it is.
I'll post a pic when I get it done and you can judge how bad or not it is if you want. I do not care much what other people think one way or another. I just am trying to find a solution short more complete rebuilds and above the suggested tape. It may take a while due to timing on an impending holiday trip and the adhesive order.
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Bunsen Honeydew
Well-known member
Iff'n ya use that camo tape, nobody gonna see it anyhow.
Iff'n yer needin a classier look than tape, treat it like a leaky roof. Just nail one of them blue tarps over it if ya got one without a lotta bullet holes in it. If yers gots too many holes, take the one off'n yer neighbors roof.
Next step up, fill them old holes with expanding foam first, then hang the tarp. Ah know its gonna cost some money, but quality ain't cheap.
Top of the line, paint the expanding foam white. Or whatever color ya got left over in the shed. Then hang the tarp.
Extra points fer using the tarp as a shower curtain too. The blue color will make sure all the kin see ya done remodeled.
Now yer done. Enjoy yer trip. Hope the ole truck don't break down on ya this year.
Iff'n yer needin a classier look than tape, treat it like a leaky roof. Just nail one of them blue tarps over it if ya got one without a lotta bullet holes in it. If yers gots too many holes, take the one off'n yer neighbors roof.
Next step up, fill them old holes with expanding foam first, then hang the tarp. Ah know its gonna cost some money, but quality ain't cheap.
Top of the line, paint the expanding foam white. Or whatever color ya got left over in the shed. Then hang the tarp.
Extra points fer using the tarp as a shower curtain too. The blue color will make sure all the kin see ya done remodeled.
Now yer done. Enjoy yer trip. Hope the ole truck don't break down on ya this year.
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Ah ... expanding closed cell foam. That would look wonderful! Yhat stuff sticks to EVERYTHING ... especially fingers. I would be surprised if it did not bond to the surround material. I even have a foam gun ... so maybe I could make it a little neater ... err ... maybe.Iff'n ya use that camo tape, nobody gonna see it anyhow.
Iff'n yer needin a classier look than tape, treat it like a leaky roof. Just nail one of them blue tarps over it if ya got one without a lotta bullet holes in it. If yers gots too many holes, take the one off'n yer neighbors roof.
Next step up, fill them old holes with expanding foam first, then hang the tarp. Ah know its gonna cost some money, but quality ain't cheap.
Top of the line, paint the expanding foam white. Or whatever color ya got left over in the shed. Then hang the tarp.
Extra points fer using the tarp as a shower curtain too. The blue color will make sure all the kin see ya done remodeled.
Now yer done. Enjoy yer trip. Hope the ole truck don't break down on ya this year.
a
You guys are like vultures gathering around a struggling animal in the desert of bonding failures
Likely pending given the progression of failures! Waiting for glue to arrive post holiday trip now for my "last ditch" attempt.
You guys are like vultures gathering around a struggling animal in the desert of bonding failures
ez-duzit
Well-known member
If you perceive yourself as a struggling victim, there will likely be more hack-jobs in your future....
You guys are like vultures gathering around a struggling animal in the desert of bonding failures
Tip: You need not always shoot for the stars. But it is a good habit to aim for results from which you can stand back and say:
"I did that."
Nah, no victimization complex over my failure to recognize the difficulty in adhesive-bonding these materials.If you perceive yourself as a struggling victim, there will likely be more hack-jobs in your future.
Tip: You need not always shoot for the stars. But it is a good habit to aim for results from which you can stand back and say:
"I did that."
I *think* I will have it good enough next round post holidays based on the last test. Famous last words?
DGersic
Well-known member
Nah. Spray foam and flex seal tape should work. No need to tear it out.
6 months from now there will be a thread about water damage and mold behind the shower enclosure
ez-duzit
Well-known member
There are a couple really good reasons to do a job right the first time. But there seem to be an infinite number of reasons to rationalize doing a hack job.
There are a couple really good reasons to do a job right the first time. But there seem to be an infinite number of reasons to rationalize doing a hack job.
But Japanese faucets are so much more superior to the **** we all use everyday
rust in the eye
Well-known member
Haven't read all so if solved already congrats.
If I were to making this bodge repair a piece of FRP covering the entire damaged panel with mechanical fasteners and caulked edges would be my choice.
If I were to making this bodge repair a piece of FRP covering the entire damaged panel with mechanical fasteners and caulked edges would be my choice.
That is true. Particulrly in a price per value sense.
I do not think many big box plumbing fixtures are domestic usa production today. So i am not criticizing usa manufacturing. Just what is in usa stores. I go to more extremes than a very high fraction of our citizens to use usa products.
Laminate bonding failures are not the fault of the fixture change but rather me not initially understanding the issue sufficiently well.
I'd bet one of the auto panel bonding adhesives would work. But a tube of that and matching dispenser is more expensive than a new shower, complete.
edit. Or one of the adhesive packages used with solid surface countertop materials. But those have the same cost issues.
edit. Or one of the adhesive packages used with solid surface countertop materials. But those have the same cost issues.
CraigStu
Well-known member
Once you pick your cement you could look for the about 1.5" wide vinyl tape in white. That would give you about 1/2+" overlap on each surface. Start at the bottom and work your way up like doing roofing. Use a hairdryer to slightly soften the tape if needed. This will keep the water from getting to the edge where several of your past adhesives failed.
I finally got back from my family holiday trip with a tube of white, slow set pvc cement waiting in my mailbox to glue the pvc panel to the tub surround. I edge routed (1/4 round) the 1/4 inch thick pvc panel and used a board to pressure clamp it for 3 days (conservative) to improve prospects for a good bond (air cured and a big sheet so seemed prudent). Maybe it is not a thing of beauty, but THIS TIME the process worked fine and we should be able to use it however long. The Japanese plumbing fixture works great. I will have my family get a drop in replacement fixture in their next summer trip to Japan in case something ever goes wrong with it. As mentioned, these fixtures work great (tub and shower) with very functional pressure and temp adjusts and if you have a replacement, you can swap them out in 15 ish minutes or less.
So this is not THAT bad of an end result after the hack declarations on the efficacy of my retrofit approach eh? A relatively cheap and serviceable repair that does not look bad and should be easy to clean etc.
The bonding failures were exasperating and wasted too much of my time and $. Three rounds of failure before i found a good material and adhesive solution. No edge fasteners were needed when I found the right combo .... so a good enough end story. In retrospect, I could/should have bond tested some small pieces more thoroughly in obscure locations rather than diving right in thinking what I was trying had to work. Plastic composites can are nasty when you make the wrong choices. So testing more rather than assuming would have been prudent and would have saved me some grief. My first few tries with counter laminate was also a bad idea. As several pointed out the edges of that absorb water so any loss of edge seal is bad news and whatever adhesive bonded to it seemed incompatible with the surround material. I wanted it initially due to a better color match and it being thin. But I should have thought more (exact color match impossible anyway). I can now rebuild the full shower + tub with tile when I have time to do a good job. But this is a much cheaper and acceptable interim solution relative to demoing and replacing the full surround that some here were advocating.
Of course i also limped home from the long family drive trip with a family car engine problem (rough low speed with check engine light) that i needed to get fixed in the freezing garage overlapped with this. But I should have that fixed as soon as one more part comes in the mail. Sometimes I feel like 1/2 the DIY game is ordering parts and materials and waiting/managing parts and materials orders !
Happy New Year to all!
So this is not THAT bad of an end result after the hack declarations on the efficacy of my retrofit approach eh? A relatively cheap and serviceable repair that does not look bad and should be easy to clean etc.
The bonding failures were exasperating and wasted too much of my time and $. Three rounds of failure before i found a good material and adhesive solution. No edge fasteners were needed when I found the right combo .... so a good enough end story. In retrospect, I could/should have bond tested some small pieces more thoroughly in obscure locations rather than diving right in thinking what I was trying had to work. Plastic composites can are nasty when you make the wrong choices. So testing more rather than assuming would have been prudent and would have saved me some grief. My first few tries with counter laminate was also a bad idea. As several pointed out the edges of that absorb water so any loss of edge seal is bad news and whatever adhesive bonded to it seemed incompatible with the surround material. I wanted it initially due to a better color match and it being thin. But I should have thought more (exact color match impossible anyway). I can now rebuild the full shower + tub with tile when I have time to do a good job. But this is a much cheaper and acceptable interim solution relative to demoing and replacing the full surround that some here were advocating.
Of course i also limped home from the long family drive trip with a family car engine problem (rough low speed with check engine light) that i needed to get fixed in the freezing garage overlapped with this. But I should have that fixed as soon as one more part comes in the mail. Sometimes I feel like 1/2 the DIY game is ordering parts and materials and waiting/managing parts and materials orders !
Happy New Year to all!
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