Trying to justify $150k on a new small shop

[duneslider]

This has to be something about the location. I live in what I feel is a pretty expensive location right now and $300 a square foot is fairly nice custom house territory.

If you only got one bid it might be worth looking for another and/or seeing what parts you can do yourself to save some money. Without knowing location, it does feel steep to me.

 

[lostmind]

Expand out from the garage door. Use flat roof as a deck . Park the cars there , use your garage as the shop.

 

[trirod]

No plans on moving since the house meets a lot of needs and wants, other than shop space, that are hard to find - especially since prices have gone crazy since we bought 6 years ago.

The shop would mostly be a hobby and I agree it is a lot of money for that. It does save us some money by being able to do more work on the house myself (it was built in 1983 and hadn't been remodeled since so we have been doing a lot since we bought the house, but probably less going forward). It also gives us some decent additional storage space, which we "need" for various toys - but that may just encourage us to buy more toys.

I can see another advantage in turning the garage into a shop space, other than size, and that would be it could pretty easily be turned into living space if a future owner wasn't interested in the shop, since it is already a part of the house. That might make it easier to recoup some of the expenditure on a sale.

Some good thoughts here - thanks.

 

[trirod]

I’ve gotten 6 quotes so far. 2 were much higher, 2 were about the same and one was quite a bit cheaper. However that builder now decided he doesn’t have time to do the project, since he just lost his right hand guy, so it may be he underestimated and decided other work he had was more profitable for him. Or possibly he was just using more cost effective subs (and his GC fee was lower than most).

 

[mcj115]

Another smaller idea. Keep the structure of the house "as is" Have an excavator level off the area behind the retaining wall and have a prefab shed (maybe 24x24) installed on the new bench as the woodshop. Yes it would be on a different level than the drive but generally in a wood shop you can lift/carry items up the include.

 

[Black300zx]

Couple questions:

1. What is your life situation? Are you retired (or near retirement) and consider this your forever home? Or are you younger and may very well need to move someday?
2. Are you in a financial situation where you don't need to worry about ever getting your investment back? Or could you end up in a bad financial spot if you pull the trigger on writing this check?

I can't speak to whether or not your quotes are reasonable or not, and without knowing details of the excavation, I'm guessing not many here can either. It sounds like you've done your homework by getting multiple quotes. If you can financially afford to spend the money without a guarantee of ever getting it back (via appreciation), and you really think the investment will make your life more enjoyable, then go for it. If on the other hand you'd be in an uncomfortable financial situation if your house only appreciates by a small fraction of your investment (or if the housing market falls flat), then don't. At the end of the day it's your money, your life, and it really doesn't matter if we think you're crazy or not. We will, however, expect a build thread if you do

 

[finn]

I suspect that a huge percentage of your cost is associated with your plan to make the garage four feet deeper so you can open the tailgate of your vehicle. That’s essentially rebuilding the entire left side of the house, new garage doors, doing something with the little deck, windows, etc.

If you can live without the four foot deeper garage, the price will come down substantially.

I doubt the excavation and retaining wall are the big hitters, as much of Lower Michigan is sand, and easy to dig.

 

[SilverJimmy]

Looks simple to me. Turn existing garage into wood shop, that in future could be turned into extra living space. Build new shop/garage in area to left of house, 30x30 with roofline that ties into existing roof. That gives you height for the lift you want and the extra depth you need. Unless the view is amazing out the windows and deck over existing garage, which I doubt since the lake view is opposite, build what you want and need!

 

[jrevans]

What is the width/depth of the shop and garden shed you are trying to build?

 

[reader2580]

How far are you from town / city? For a 150k could you rent a place? No construction which will invariably go over budget as "things" come up. I wouldn't doubt your final cost will be closer to 200k. If you are thinking of spending this kind of money to build cabinets, maybe buy cabinets ready made and get into a less expensive hobby.

Woodworking is a hobby the same as working on cars is a hobby. Many GJers justify a separate shop with lift as saving money on car repairs. A building, tools, and lift can easily reach $50k and go up from there. How many trips to the mechanic could you make for $50k? Nothing wrong with doing your own car repairs, but it is hard to justify on savings alone unless you do major repairs every week.

 

[bassJAM]

OP what's over here on the left? If it's your property a pole barn to the left of your driveway might be easier and a whole lot cheaper than tying something into your existing structure.

 

[trirod]

Here are the drawings we had prepared that shows the dimensions and how it should all fit together.

 

[trirod]

OP what's over here on the left?

That is just a wooded area on a slope. It's a possibility. There would still need to be some excavation and retaining walls built, but it's not as high/steep as the current plan. it wasn't my first choice since having an attached place makes it easier just to go in and out for short periods, in the winter especially, and not have to worry about heating a separate building. But it's definitely something to consider based on the pricing of the original plans.

 

[GrayFlattop]

Where are you located? As mentioned above, that can have a substantial impact on cost.

BUT - you're kinda screwed by the township setback line on the upper left - it really limits the size of your new shop. I see that as one of the problems - the shop is too small to be very useful and by building it the way it is drawn, you are locked in to high costs.

I'd abandon that plan and pull the whole addition forward. Yeah, you will need a new well site, but it would save on moving the retaining wall, would limit excavating and would allow for a larger garage that's front-loading. The back of the new garage would end in front of the balcony

I can see that the architect put some serious thought into integrating the closet addition into the house design, but, IMO he (or she) needs to tear up that plan and put on their thinking cap to result in a better product.

 

[HoosierMark]

Why not just put a two car garage attached to the existing garage? Give it a flat roof so it serves as a large concrete patio for the adjoining living space where small deck is? It eliminates the retaining wall, does not block the view, has one wall already in place, adds more outdoor living space and garage doors can be moved to new openings.

 

[finn]

Why not just put a two car garage attached to the existing garage? Give it a flat roof so it serves as a large concrete patio for the adjoining living space where small deck is? It eliminates the retaining wall, does not block the view, has one wall already in place, adds more outdoor living space and garage doors can be moved to new openings.

Depending on where he is in Michigan, you don’t want a flat roof on anything….ever.

 

[Youngandfree]

That is just a wooded area on a slope. It's a possibility. There would still need to be some excavation and retaining walls built, but it's not as high/steep as the current plan. it wasn't my first choice since having an attached place makes it easier just to go in and out for short periods, in the winter especially, and not have to worry about heating a separate building. But it's definitely something to consider based on the pricing of the original plans.

The drawing showing the property line and set back doesn't look like you have much room to go straight out to the left.

 

[jrevans]

12x 24 (give or take) above grade structure (on piers) located at the top parallel to the retaining wall. overlooking the driveway.. minimal excavation. Close to house but not attached. Might get away with out cutting trees.

 

[mepstein]

I would talk to an architect to see if there are options to do cheaper or different but if the architect doesn’t come me up with any big ideas, I would absolutely go ahead with the addition. Let’s say you do the addition and enjoy working in it for the next 10 years. What will that mean to you? Will it make you and your wife happy. If you can afford it and want to do it, why not?

BTW- moving to a different house is expensive. RE fees and transfer tax in the sell side. Closing cost, transfer tax and loan fees on the buying side.

I would also maximize storage and layout in your garage so your shop space is all space for you and doesn’t become overflow storage.

 

[Hank11]

You have a flat spot in front of the garage. Update that retaining wall, turn the garage into your shop and build a garage there. With some careful design, you could possibly have some sort of deck/balcony off the second floor and miss the well altogether. I bet it cuts the price in half.

^^^^^^^ This X 100.

 

[backupbeeper]

I would just extend the house to where the retaining wall is .
Or as far as the setback will allow

That’s what we did .

And we had to have a 22 degree bend in the exterior wall to make it stay in the set back

And that was with the city approving a setback variance , changing it from 35 feet to 25 feet .

In my city the setback is based on the size of the lot , the larger the lot , the larger the setback .

Doing it that way you’d lose the windows on the end ,

But you might could install windows on the side wall or a skylight to make up for it

You’d save a lot of money by not modifying the existing structure .
Just adding on to it would be a lot less money .

We did a three car garage with an apartment on top ,

Total was about $150k ,

We did the hired out the basic electrical , and we did all the plumbing and most of the electrical , installed the insulation , and finished the inside ourselves , we installed the hardwood floor, we did the tile in the bathroom etc .



We hired out the excavation and framing and roofing and Sheetrock

Cost extra to have the 20 degree bend in the middle

Looks like a boomerang , one bay , then a bend and the other two bays .



But yours would be just cutting off a corner to stay in the setback .
So that would be cheaper .

You would still need the same demolition, the driveway in front of the existing garage and retaining wall would have to go

 

[backupbeeper]

Like this


I bet you could get this done for the same or maybe less

And you’d get a lot lot more square footage

 

[CombatNinja]

Feasibility of building it onto the front of the house (to the right of the current garage) where you have that large, windowless wall? The stairs to the deck would need to be reconfigured of course. You wouldn't get the added depth to your current garage this way, but I bet you could knock that estimate in half. Building into that hillside is what is driving your costs up so high. Speaking of which, what does the ground look like to the left of the driveway that we can't se in the picture? Do you own any of that?

 

[Rst277]

Like this


I bet you could get this done for the same or maybe less

And you’d get a lot lot more square footage

Here are the drawings we had prepared that shows the dimensions and how it should all fit together.

At the risk of offending someone, I have to say that plan has chosen the most difficult and expensive way to fulfill your needs. Build a garage on the flat area and have a breezeway to attach to the house. That may allow you to keep that little balcony as well. Turn the current garage into workshop. 50k, no hassles.

 

[reader2580]

At the risk of offending someone, I have to say that plan has chosen the most difficult and expensive way to fulfill your needs. Build a garage on the flat area and have a breezeway to attach to the house. That may allow you to keep that little balcony as well. Turn the current garage into workshop. 50k, no hassles.

Very similar to what I was thinking after seeing the plans and the picture of the house.

 

[reader2580]

An attached shop often gets used more often because it is convenient. You can run out to the shop if you have a few minutes before dinner or something and get a bit of work done. If you have a detached shop you're not running out quickly to the shop if it is winter in Michigan.

The isolation of a detached shop can be better for getting long stretches of uninterrupted work done, particularly if the wife or kids like to interrupt a lot.

 

[bassJAM]

Personally I would not turn the garage into a shop and then add a second garage directly connected to the new shop like a few others are suggesting. When looking at the flow of a house generally you want the garage next to or very near the kitchen/pantry so its close when carrying in groceries. It might not bother you to walk an additional 30ft and through your shop every time you leave/come home, but I bet your wife won't be happy. Potential home buyers will notice that as well.

 

[Old Moparz]

I could never justify $150,000 for various reasons & would sacrifice the balcony view on the left side of the main house. Use the existing garage as the shop, install a new/modified retaining wall & a pole building would be my suggestion also. You could leave the doors to the balcony where they are & incorporate a one story breezeway between the existing house & the new building where the roof becomes the balcony/deck.

Sometimes people think of pole buildings as metal barns & dislike the appearance. I saved roughly 35% by doing a pole vs. stick. My house is a contemporary style & a metal pole building right behind it would look out of place. I designed the garage to match the house, the 1st floor is framed like a pole building & the 2nd floor is stick built on top of it, From the exterior you'd never know how it was built.

 

[trirod]

Here is the left side of the driveway, as requested by some folks. It would be possible to put a separate building there - its a slope but not as severe as at the back. Can’t cut down those two maple trees at the front though - they’re my best sap producers!

 

[bassJAM]

I'm surprised those 2 maples aren't wreaking havoc on your driveway already. I understand though, my brother has trees tapped all around my parent's farm and a couple other properites he has access too.

 

[Rockable]

It's your money. Build what you want and enjoy it while you're here. Life is short.

 

[nadogail]

Justifying the expense of building a workshop is pointless.
It is like justifying the climbing of mountains, we climb them because they are there.
We build workshops because we want them.

 

[TheThinMan]

Couldn't agree with steves_001 more. I thought of building out from the garage side of the house, but "spinning" the garage door to the front is inspired. Can you move past the existing retaining wall to the left to get a few more feet of floor space ? The pitfalls of building additions have already been mentioned but adding on, the way steves mentioned seems to me to be a much less expensive alternative.

One thought that occurred to me is the increase in property tax when the project is completed. I suppose you have considered this, but if you haven't it might be worth taking a close look at. In some parts of the country, property tax is government sponsored extortion.

But good luck on your project. It's exciting to think about.

You know what they say.. location, location, location.. looks like you bought because of the view... and that is what you have.
Anything can be done, but your trying to make it something it is not.
"If" I would do it, I would spin the garage door to the front of the house. Then add on to the side of the house.
Be realistic with your goals. Is this just a wood shop? Maybe something semi-permanent in that driveway space?
It will be many years before you get $150k back, unless that area is really booming and you have been there a while.
Also could deter buyers, who are just there for the view.

just my .$.02..

 

[CraigStu]

Now that I see you are near a lake I understand why moving isn't on your list of options.

 

[MovingAlong]

I plan on living here for many years so would hope to get a lot of benefit out of it...

What other justification is needed or even possible?

We're not talking about retail space where you can calculate an ROI. Only you can decide if it's "worth it" - a term that deserves to be banned from every internet forum discussion.

Would I pay that? No. Are our situations/incomes/locations/dreams/plans/savings/values the same? No.

Your money, your life, your decision. You want it, that's more than enough justification...

 

[jar944]

If you are thinking of spending this kind of money to build cabinets, maybe buy cabinets ready made and get into a less expensive hobby.

Its likely one of the few side projects where you could spend 150k on a space and come out even (not accounting for you time)

It's not that hard to spend 150k on cabinets and millwork for a whole house, depending on the design and scale of the project.

 

[legenddc]

I would try and put a new garage attached to the house at a 90* angle so you drive right up the driveway and into the garage. Or add a 2 car garage attached to the existing garage, turn the stairs and move the well.

 

[u2slow]

... That might make it easier to recoup some of the expenditure on a sale.

FWIW, my shop cost similar to your quote. I funded it on a HELOC. If I add the shop cost to my home purchase price.... and double that figure - thats my current assessment. My appraisal is most likely even higher. Building costs are easily up 50% from 10 years ago when i did it.

Not saying this works everywhere, all the time... but in my 46 years in my region, real estate always trends upward with only brief spells of stagnation.

 

[trirod]

I think "justify" was the wrong word for me to use in the title of this thread. I can certainly justify (to myself) spending a good sum of money to make this house more livable for me. I am planning to get carried out of here feet first, and I spend a lot of time at home, so why not spend some money now and get 30 years (if I'm lucky) of benefit out of it. My main concern is probably that I am not getting all that much space for that money. A 220 sq ft shop is a lot better than I have now, but is probably the bare minimum for a usable wood shop - and for that amount of money I would probably want more than the bare minimum.

A lot of good ideas coming out - thanks for those. One of the early sketches that the architect did showed basically a new garage on the existing driveway and then converting the existing garage to a shop, which is what a lot of you are suggesting. I originally preferred the design we had drawn up over that for a number of reasons - being built into the hillside keeps the temperature inside more constant, it changed the look of the house less since a lot of it is hidden from view, and it kept the garage next to the entrance hall. Also, our house has cedar siding, which is really expensive now, so building something with 4 walls that need cedar siding isn't going to be particularly cheap. We are basically on sand here, so I didn't think the excavation would be that expensive.

Anyway, I need to have a good think about what is most important in this build and where I am most prepared to compromise.

Thanks again for all of the input - it's been very helpful in guiding my thought process here.

 

[GrayFlattop]

I know that it has been said that "size isn't everything", but for a woodshop, the initial plan shown would be very limiting, IMO. I wasn't trying to be a **** when I referred to it as a closet, but think how you would cut sheet stock on a table saw (ok. a track saw can counter that to a degree), but you will probably want to be able to rip down a 10 or 12' board for trim or whatnot. You will want a larger space.

Perhaps what you meant to say rather than "justify", was: "will the benefit be commensurate with the outlay?" Only you can answer that, but it would appear that you have your doubts.