Tyvek versus Zip Board

[69gp]

Getting ready to start my garage build. Just looking for pros and cons of Tyvek versus Zip board on walls. Architect specked out Zip board but being old school not a big fan, When I built my house I used 5 ply 1/2" plywood with Tyvek.

I don't mind the Zip board on the roof as it makes the addition watertight in a day. I will also be installing water and ice shield up the first 6' and then and additional underlay for the balance of the roof.

My concern is on the walls with the Zip System as the joints will be tapped you still have all the nail holes that penetrate the board. I will be using Cedar siding with the rough side out.

Also would it be possible to go with the zip board and then Tyvek over?


thanks

 

[Kaizen]

I did zip. Basically does what tyvek does plus waterproof. Saves on labor if you are paying for it. I built mine all myself so having it exposed to weather for six months was important. Waste of time to do tyvek on zip.
The zip tape is pricey but awesome. I get what you are saying about the nail penetration but I think the zip panel seals it. Check with manufacturer. Very high quality product


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[walrus]

Does tyvek seal around a nail ?

Getting ready to start my garage build. Just looking for pros and cons of Tyvek versus Zip board on walls. Architect specked out Zip board but being old school not a big fan, When I built my house I used 5 ply 1/2" plywood with Tyvek.

I don't mind the Zip board on the roof as it makes the addition watertight in a day. I will also be installing water and ice shield up the first 6' and then and additional underlay for the balance of the roof.

My concern is on the walls with the Zip System as the joints will be tapped you still have all the nail holes that penetrate the board. I will be using Cedar siding with the rough side out.

Also would it be possible to go with the zip board and then Tyvek over?


thanks

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[PCustoms]

What do you think all your nails to hold the cedar shakes on are going to do to tyvek?

 

[doublearon98]

The paint on the zip seals the nail holes on the walls. Still have to tape all on roof

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[walrus]

I'd be more concerned with moisture with a zip system. Will it be trapped in the walls?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[doublearon98]

I'd be more concerned with moisture with a zip system. Will it be trapped in the walls?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Not more than it would between tyvek and the sheathing

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[walrus]

Not more than it would between tyvek and the sheathing

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Tyvek allows moisture to go out, not in. Zip stops it in both directions

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[doublearon98]

Well there ya go

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[jack stand]

I have a hard time with the value of the Zip system on walls over Tyvek/Typar. You still need to handle your water with the proper flashings regardless of the sheathing type. A good (taped) housewrap job is much less expensive "air infiltration barrier" than zip and there should be very little to no water that get's behind your siding with the proper flashings anyway. I am not aware of the green Zip paint "self sealing" or "healing" around nails like it will on an ice & water shield. It has zero flexibility and slightly chips even when cutting it.
The Zip sheet itself is a far superior product over your common 7/16 osb, and today's plywood has gotten pretty crappy. Poor edges and does not lay flat. An upgrade imho would be AdvanTech's wall sheathing. But at that point, the Zip may only be a small price increase. For a garage, I'd be content with regular osb.

 

[jbwilkins]

I'd be concerned with the tape failing and allowing in water down the road....Yes tape can fail with house wrap too, but you're overlapping the joints so there's some additional protection.....There's also a question about 'over penetration' of the fasteners damaging the WRB on ZIP, but this can be an issue with house-wrap if you install it wrong too...

BTW my company builds 5000+ homes a year across the country and we won't touch it.....You typically see it with smaller builders, on multifamily (apartments), or companies that are just not concerned with the risk involved....

 

[ddurrett896]

Plan on using it on my walls, but concerned on the rood. What happens when you need a shingle replacement and the guys are scraping against it? My fear is that it would get destroyed where with tar paper it wouldn't.

 

[Kaizen]

I'd be concerned with the tape failing and allowing in water down the road....Yes tape can fail with house wrap too, but you're overlapping the joints so there's some additional protection.....There's also a question about 'over penetration' of the fasteners damaging the WRB on ZIP, but this can be an issue with house-wrap if you install it wrong too...

BTW my company builds 5000+ homes a year across the country and we won't touch it.....You typically see it with smaller builders, on multifamily (apartments), or companies that are just not concerned with the risk involved....

Just a personal experience. I put my first wall up almost two years ago and put the tape on immediately. A month ago I decided to put in some windows and cut out the zip overlapping two panels. Was curious if it would come off if I stepped on one and pulled the other. Tried it and it was on good. Only started to come off taking the first layers of substrate with it.
So sitting by itself under protective siding this tape will last a long time


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kaizen]

Plan on using it on my walls, but concerned on the rood. What happens when you need a shingle replacement and the guys are scraping against it? My fear is that it would get destroyed where with tar paper it wouldn't.

You need to use tar paper if you use shingles. Even if it scrapes off the surface it’s still the best ply I’ve used.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Homerr]

Step 1: Ignore architects drawings
Step 2: Don't talk with architect about why they specified the item
Step 3: Triangulate architect by enlisting the internets
Step 4: Blame the architect when something goes wrong with rot, water, etc.

 

[jack stand]

Step 1: Ignore architects drawings
Step 2: Don't talk with architect about why they specified the item
Step 3: Triangulate architect by enlisting the internets
Step 4: Blame the architect when something goes wrong with rot, water, etc.

I get your point, to a point.
Generally architects are not involved with (later) service work or repairs, or for that matter on site to watch every step of the build. They get & see the glossy trade mag's with all the new "stuff" and possibly have their fee's connected to the costs and have little to no feedback on performance after the fact. My Dad is an architect, I am a builder, the OP is building a garage. A house is a big difference with these and a ton of other considerations.:

 

[8mpg]

I'd be concerned with the tape failing and allowing in water down the road....Yes tape can fail with house wrap too, but you're overlapping the joints so there's some additional protection.....There's also a question about 'over penetration' of the fasteners damaging the WRB on ZIP, but this can be an issue with house-wrap if you install it wrong too...

BTW my company builds 5000+ homes a year across the country and we won't touch it.....You typically see it with smaller builders, on multifamily (apartments), or companies that are just not concerned with the risk involved....

lol... I think you have it completely backwards

Your company that builds 5000 houses a year is cranking out houses as cheap as possible because they dont care. If you have a major issue in a house thats $300,000 vs major issue in a $3,000,000 apartment complex, you can see which company is more liable.

There is a lot of opinion in this thread some of which I laugh at. You guys need to really learn about building science. Zip sheathing is a great product because of its water/air sealing ability. The guys worried about moisture being trapped in a wall shouldnt be. The best setup you can have is a rain screen between sheathing and the cladding. This goes for any system of cladding.

Zip is more expensive but often comparable to tyvek. THere is more labor involved doing Tyvek. Tyvek is an old school system compared to the newer technologies like peel and stick membranes, liquid applied barriers, etc. One of the biggest advantages to Zip is the air sealing abilities. With ever increasing energy efficiency demand, we need things like Zip to help meet code.

To the OP, watch a bunch of Matt Risinger videos. While he doesnt use Zip much, he goes over lots of the fundamentals of building correctly and the necessity of building science.

Last bit. After lots and lots of research, I went with Zip on my buildng. Its 2,000sqft, 3.5" of open cell spray foam in the walls, 6" on the roof deck. The building was dried in as soon as the sheathing was up and taped. Im running a 2 ton minisplit in Texas and its doing great holding the temp at 75*f when its over 100*F outside. Conventional though would have been at least 4 tons of air conditioning for the garage. My cost for Zip was about $1200 more than 7/16 osb from the lumber supplier. I think its a very small investment for being dried in fast and much better air sealing.

 

[Jonny Rotten]

I've been in construction my whole life. I call BS on Tyvek for siding and Deck Armor for the roof. We rip siding and roofing off everyday, sometimes the 1970's 3/8"sheathing is good sometimes not but its all got tar paper on it as that's all that was available....and guess what ..it works. Don't over think it. If it lasted on every house in America for the last 100 years it will last on whatever your building for a long long time...its all sales and marketing. Any job we've ever ripped with 1/2" plywood is always perfect after decades. That being said house wrap goes on our new siding "just because"

 

[Lelandwelds]

I've been in construction my whole life. I call BS on Tyvek for siding and Deck Armor for the roof. We rip siding and roofing off everyday, sometimes the 1970's sheathing is good sometimes not but its all got tar paper on it as that's all that was available....and guess what ..it works. Don't over think it. If it lasted on every house in America for the last 100 years it will last on whatever your building for a long long time...its all sales and marketing That being said house wrap goes on our new siding "just because"

1970s houses leaked so much it was like a wind blowing through to dry out your walls. Today's houses are not built that way. (Hopefully!) Read some Building Science Corporation articles please.

Zip holds up to bulk water far better than OSB. I think you could build an aquarium out of the stuff.

 

[Ed Devinney]

I used Zip's insulating panels on my house, and am now having our rental house resheathed (was just going to be new siding but the 1980s foam sheathing wasn't sound and hid a lot of mess >8-/ ).

Ended up using 1/2" zip on the rental house. The cost wasn't much more than good quality sheathing + tyvek, and since my carpenter friend doing the work is a one-man band, it goes up easier than tyvek. Maybe something to consider if you're doing the work yourself.

 

[Jonny Rotten]

1970s houses leaked so much it was like a wind blowing through to dry out your walls. Today's houses are not built that way. (Hopefully!) Read some Building Science Corporation articles please.

Zip holds up to bulk water far better than OSB. I think you could build an aquarium out of the stuff.

I mention 1970's because pre 70's was T&G which is indestructible and the 80"s was 1/2" sheathing. The 70's was the sh*t zone for crappy building. 24 on center with 3/8 sheathing type thing. If tar paper saved the sheathing almost 50 year with that crappy setup it works

 

[8mpg]

I mention 1970's because pre 70's was T&G which is indestructible and the 80"s was 1/2" sheathing. The 70's was the sh*t zone for crappy building. 24 on center with 3/8 sheathing type thing. If tar paper saved the sheathing almost 50 year with that crappy setup it works

Just because it works doesnt mean its good. I can lay tile but it doesnt mean I can do a quality or professional job.

For the guys who dont see some of the advantages, check out this video:

The house did a blower door of .7 ACH50. The guy he interviews loves it because he doesnt feel the need to do spray foam.

 

[yeldogt]

People are over thinking all the products today -- more is not better. In other words .. don't mix various building products believing more of them is better.

Why is it that I can rip off a 140 year old slate roof -- that's also had a spray foamed deck for 40 years and find no rot except where repairs were done with modern products?

The answer is no trapped moisture .....same with a wall.

The idea behind ZIP is "air sealing" -- you are getting multiple products at one shot all the while providing the open time for a builder to finish the product. My problem with ZIP is that it's OSB and uses tape --- time will tell if the tape and the covering over the OSB holds up. It must be installed with perfection.

Why would you want to put another covering on the ZIP?

Traditional building paper does actually breath -- I will note that teh stuff they sell today as 30 is about what typical 15 was not too long ago.

The mistake people make is thinking that if ice and water shield is good on part of a roof ..covering the whole thing is better ... it's not.

I like plywood and spray foam -- the siding has to follow what the manufacturer recommends ... often a rain screen is best. An old traditionally built wall with wood sheathing/ building paper and wood siding would dry as a unit -- they had no caulk 100 years ago.

 

[8mpg]

People are over thinking all the products today -- more is not better. In other words .. don't mix various building products believing more of them is better.

Why is it that I can rip off a 140 year old slate roof -- that's also had a spray foamed deck for 40 years and find no rot except where repairs were done with modern products?

The answer is no trapped moisture .....same with a wall.

The idea behind ZIP is "air sealing" -- you are getting multiple products at one shot all the while providing the open time for a builder to finish the product. My problem with ZIP is that it's OSB and uses tape --- time will tell if the tape and the covering over the OSB holds up. It must be installed with perfection.

Why would you want to put another covering on the ZIP?

Traditional building paper does actually breath -- I will note that teh stuff they sell today as 30 is about what typical 15 was not too long ago.

The mistake people make is thinking that if ice and water shield is good on part of a roof ..covering the whole thing is better ... it's not.

I like plywood and spray foam -- the siding has to follow what the manufacturer recommends ... often a rain screen is best. An old traditionally built wall with wood sheathing/ building paper and wood siding would dry as a unit -- they had no caulk 100 years ago.

I believe building science will disagree with you. Any moisture just needs to be able to dry to the inside or the outside. Read up on Joe Lsteburek's perfect wall

Here are some articles by Building Science Corp:
https://buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-067-stuck-on-you
https://buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-001-the-perfect-wall

 

[yeldogt]

I believe building science will disagree with you. Any moisture just needs to be able to dry to the inside or the outside. Read up on Joe Lsteburek's perfect wall

Here are some articles by Building Science Corp:
https://buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-067-stuck-on-you
https://buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-001-the-perfect-wall

Yes -- but a VB on the inside will stop this drying ... and only if continual conditioned.

Example: Zinc roofs need a slip sheet and don't like moisture on the back side -- so covering the whole roof with what amounts to a high performance ice and water shied is the answer. It's a slip sheet and will also stop moisture --- the only totally safe thing for the inside of the sheathing is to closed cell foam. You incapsulate the plywood sheathing.

Inside moisture -- especially in cold climates can be a real problem. GBA and BS .. both liked plastic VB at one time .. and they like these crazy double walls. KISS is my preferred way.

 

[8mpg]

Yes -- but a VB on the inside will stop this drying ... and only if continual conditioned.

Example: Zinc roofs need a slip sheet and don't like moisture on the back side -- so covering the whole roof with what amounts to a high performance ice and water shied is the answer. It's a slip sheet and will also stop moisture --- the only totally safe thing for the inside of the sheathing is to closed cell foam. You incapsulate the plywood sheathing.

Inside moisture -- especially in cold climates can be a real problem. GBA and BS .. both liked plastic VB at one time .. and they like these crazy double walls. KISS is my preferred way.

While I agree to KISS... adding a presealed OSB and just rolling on some tape is pretty simple. In fact, its much more simple than trying to roll out housewrap and nail it.

 

[Jonny Rotten]

If you built something when you were 20 years old and pulled it apart when you were 75 years old and it still looks good....I'd say it works.

It literally lasted a lifetime...what more could you ask for....its a vapor barrier, nothing more

Not only that sometime in the next 30 years the roof/siding is most likely going to be changed if for no other reason than new owners or just because homeowners get bored of what they have. And then there will be all new underlayment

Tar paper works and works fine. Just because manufactures make a new product to stand out doesn't mean is its needed. I'm not saying Tyvek, Deck Armor, synthetic felts are bad. I'm just saying they are not needed. Crappy 3/8" 3 ply yellow pine sheathing is the problem, not the vapor barrier

 

[yeldogt]

While I agree to KISS... adding a presealed OSB and just rolling on some tape is pretty simple. In fact, its much more simple than trying to roll out housewrap and nail it.

well -- go look at some of the jobs were it's been used ... tell the guys they are doing it wrong. There is a precision to it -- it has to be taped properly -- and it's often not.


Agree about the house wrap -- question the whole idea. Especially, when they use it w/o sheathing. It rips and the tape comes off ... it's almost never done correctly.

I don't trust the tape ... same with all the stick on flashing. I'm fine if redundant -- as use along a foundation under a typical flashing. I have seen it fail

 

[ddurrett896]

You need to use tar paper if you use shingles. Even if it scrapes off the surface it’s still the best ply I’ve used.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Doesn't that then pose an issue if moisture is trapped between the tar paper and ZIP panel?

 

[Lelandwelds]

Caves are a great construction method if less than 20% humidity with 50°F temperature swings.

Tar paper and shiplap are great if energy is cheap and you can just spin a thermostat. Ever add up how many inches of leaks for the top and bottom edge of each skinny piece?

In "mixed hot humid" Central Texas, interior plastic "vapor barrier " is beyond stupid. Best strategy is to make absolutely positive that bulk water stays out. Plan on drying to the interior.

Freezing water falling from the sky is a foreign concept. I don't know what works north of Waco.

 

[slip knot]

I pulled a number of houses apart after Hurricane Harvey hit the gulf coast. My one take away was that the older homes with felt had very little old water damage except around old windows and such. The houses with the wrap had a lot more damage in odd places. Middle of closed walls had some rotten areas that I didn't see any obvious reasons for.

I seriously doubt that the wrap was the sole cause of it but I think the wrap may not have been installed correctly. And watching whats been going up since the storm is downright frightening. I was in a bay house in Rockport Tx, Wrap + VB batts + interior plastic. And it passed the inspection. I told the home owner he might wanna do something about it but all he was thinking was it passed the inspection.

 

[jbwilkins]

lol... I think you have it completely backwards

Your company that builds 5000 houses a year is cranking out houses as cheap as possible because they dont care. If you have a major issue in a house thats $300,000 vs major issue in a $3,000,000 apartment complex, you can see which company is more liable..

You need to rethink that....most apartments are built per the specifications from the owner and the GC has zero liability for construction defects as long as it’s built to the specifications.....

We have to warranty the home for 5-10 years depending on the state and if it’s a failure across multiple homes we’re looking at class action if the wrong attorney gets involved....We run into a whole different matter when we build attached for sale, our GL insurance on those double......BTW our average asking price is $625k.....

When you factor in labor Zip is actually cheaper....we’ve looked, but our building science guys just can’t get comfortable with it....if it’s installed perfectly, per the directions, it’s a fine product....

 

[socoj2]

You need to rethink that....most apartments are built per the specifications from the owner and the GC has zero liability for construction defects as long as it’s built to the specifications.....

We have to warranty the home for 5-10 years depending on the state and if it’s a failure across multiple homes we’re looking at class action if the wrong attorney gets involved....We run into a whole different matter when we build attached for sale, our GL insurance on those double......BTW our average asking price is $625k.....

When you factor in labor Zip is actually cheaper....we’ve looked, but our building science guys just can’t get comfortable with it....if it’s installed perfectly, per the directions, it’s a fine product....

Have the framers hang it. and train the sheetrock guys to float it with the liquid flashing. problem solved.

 

[Kaizen]

Doesn't that then pose an issue if moisture is trapped between the tar papers and ZIP panel?

Don’t see how. Same as using on plywood roof. Separates the shingles and allows some air gap. I did not put down an underpayment with my metal roof although the metal manufacturer recommended over zip or any other substrate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[8mpg]

You need to rethink that....most apartments are built per the specifications from the owner and the GC has zero liability for construction defects as long as it’s built to the specifications.....

We have to warranty the home for 5-10 years depending on the state and if it’s a failure across multiple homes we’re looking at class action if the wrong attorney gets involved....We run into a whole different matter when we build attached for sale, our GL insurance on those double......BTW our average asking price is $625k.....

When you factor in labor Zip is actually cheaper....we’ve looked, but our building science guys just can’t get comfortable with it....if it’s installed perfectly, per the directions, it’s a fine product....

LOL... Man, the engineers are correct but you say you just cant get people to install it correctly? BTW, the GC on a commercial build is definitely responsible for that build for YEARS. In fact, the hospital I work for has a bunch of issues and the contractors has gone bankrupt fixing the problems. Commercial builds take a lot more money and a lot more time as they are spec'd out by architects and engineers. People with degrees on building proper building. My two brothers are commercial architects.

Home builders build stuff cheap. Im seeing $500k houses built with t-ply and structural t-ply in the corners. They still tape the seams. Many builders I talked to when looking to build my house were just old school and not willing to change their ways. It wasnt cost that was the issue, they just werent willing to adapt to modern SCIENCE.

 

[tcianci]

Tyvek allows moisture to go out, not in. Zip stops it in both directions

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Your comment about Tyvek is flat out wrong...go to DuPont's web site and read it. Also read the cautions about using Tyvek under cedar because of a situation called "Tannin bleed" where there is a reaction between the Tyvek and the the cedar that causes staining.

If you have a product that you're considering using and they have a manufacturers web site, why in the world would you ask questions on here and get second hand, incorrect information?

 

[tcianci]

If you built something when you were 20 years old and pulled it apart when you were 75 years old and it still looks good....I'd say it works.

It literally lasted a lifetime...what more could you ask for....its a vapor barrier, nothing more

Not only that sometime in the next 30 years the roof/siding is most likely going to be changed if for no other reason than new owners or just because homeowners get bored of what they have. And then there will be all new underlayment

Tar paper works and works fine. Just because manufactures make a new product to stand out doesn't mean is its needed. I'm not saying Tyvek, Deck Armor, synthetic felts are bad. I'm just saying they are not needed. Crappy 3/8" 3 ply yellow pine sheathing is the problem, not the vapor barrier

Jonny, they're never going to listen to us. I have been in remodeling for over 45 years and have seen some amazing results of traditionally framed wall systems dating back to the Civil war. I have also seen total destruction of sheathing behind Tyvek more so than any other WRB.

Despite the constant push to build tighter,supposedly better buildings, the homeowner of today, while supposedly saving "energy" usually finds himself victim of failed technology, improper application, etc. that results in higher costs of ownership in the long run as opposed to a structure that's not quite as "efficient".

A forum such as this where there are so many DIY guys who approach their projects as doing it the right way so they won't be back in there in a few years fixing stuff are going to very surprised years from now when they're staring at major repairs that they will be tool old to want to themselves over again.

 

[walrus]

Your comment about Tyvek is flat out wrong...go to DuPont's web site and read it. Also read the cautions about using Tyvek under cedar because of a situation called "Tannin bleed" where there is a reaction between the Tyvek and the the cedar that causes staining.

If you have a product that you're considering using and they have a manufacturers web site, why in the world would you ask questions on here and get second hand, incorrect information?

From Duponts website

DuPont Building Envelope systems help control airflow through walls, while holding out bulk water, and allowing moisture vapor to escape.

Also didn't dupont remedy the cedar issue many many years ago?

 

[CTyankee]

Jonny, they're never going to listen to us. I have been in remodeling for over 45 years and have seen some amazing results of traditionally framed wall systems dating back to the Civil war. I have also seen total destruction of sheathing behind Tyvek more so than any other WRB.

Despite the constant push to build tighter,supposedly better buildings, the homeowner of today, while supposedly saving "energy" usually finds himself victim of failed technology, improper application, etc. that results in higher costs of ownership in the long run as opposed to a structure that's not quite as "efficient".

A forum such as this where there are so many DIY guys who approach their projects as doing it the right way so they won't be back in there in a few years fixing stuff are going to very surprised years from now when they're staring at major repairs that they will be tool old to want to themselves over again.

LOL..I stopped responding to threads like this years ago. IMO, unless you've done remodeling and actually seen the results that different building products have on a structure over decades, you really can't claim you know what's "best". But as you say, you're not likely to convince anyone otherwise.

 

[Trey T]

The ZIP board is still OSB, so let's assume that you want OSB entirely, then you only need the ZIP board ONLY. Do not use Tyvek to cover it because the ZIP is designed w/ similar permeability for vapor to pass thru. If you stack the Tyvek sheet against the ZIP board, it will potentially create an impermeable layer and not allowing vapor to pass thru.

OSB + Tyvek = good
ZIP + Tyvek = bad