Unsticking a Wilton - Fail

[Shiftless]

-The images were used because it showed the exploded diagram and cross section of a round slide vise from Wilton. The vise in question from the OP appears to be a round slide like a Tradesman or Bullet. The info in the image below might help clear things up if you cross reference the numbers to the Wilton website. If it's not then perhaps you could post some info? I'll wait.



-Maybe yours are but neither of my vises are similar to the Wilton except in overall shape. Mine have square slides and the nut is entirely different in design and function. Do you own either of the models I have that supports your contention? Here's a link below

https://wiltontools.com/tradesman-1755-vise-5-1-2-jaw-width-5-jaw-opening-3-3-4-throat-depth

Here is one of my Wilton’s with that similar square body and a square slide. This vise of mine is what I was referring to when I said it was like Prentiss and Reeds. The vise being discussed is a different model. It has the square body unlike the bullet machinist vises but after looking more closely, it looks like it has a round slide. That feature is just like the bullets.
I don’t have a 1755 or any of the newer mechanics level vises. Mine pictured below is a 1600 series. 1644
(I have quite a few Wilton bullets.)

 

[Shiftless]

Start at page 14:

Cutter's Vise - Page 17 - Shop Floor Talk

Page 17- Cutter's Vise Mechanical & Electrical

www.shopfloortalk.com

An epic story! There are lessons to be learned by reading it all the way through. It’s a story about loosening up a stuck Wilton bullet.

Warning: It’s LONG

 

[Shiftless]

Here is a pic of a 1755 I found on the interweb. Seeing the whole vise makes it obvious to me and everyone else that this vise has a squarish body and the same round slide as the machinist bullet vises. Sorry for the confusion I might have caused by my mistake.

 

[paulsomlo]

Here is a pic of a 1755 I found on the interweb. Seeing the whole vise makes it obvious to me and everyone else that this vise has a squarish body and the same round slide as the machinist bullet vises. Sorry for the confusion I might have caused by my mistake.

Your transgression is forgiven, Shiftless... but all those vises and not one Tradesman?

 

[Shiftless]

but all those vises and you don't own any Tradesman?

I have a dozen Wilton machinist vises (bullets) and 2 Wilton C1’s but no Tradesmen. I used to have one that I bought all rusty (but not stuck) and fixed it up, painted it snap on red and sold it to a younger fellow for a nice user.
Except for a York and a Record, all of my vises are made in USA. Some are 100+ years old.

 

[paulsomlo]

-Ok I'll ask the dumb questions. Back cap off and nut out? The vises I have (Reed, Prentiss, etc.) are different from the Wilton design. From the images below I don't see much to lock things up. By the description from @paulsomlo it doesn't sound like rust is the major factor here preventing movement. I'm wondering if the guide rail (#17) or the rail pins (#18) are ploughing the guide rail slot/groove? I've seen shaft keys get skewed/lifted (rust/debris or loose fit) enough to dig into the surrounding metal, making component removal difficult. Just one sharp/square edge starting to dig in can lead to further galling as more metal gets ploughed up. The result can lock up movement by compression or friction welding far more than one would think possible. I'm out of wild guesses here.

At this point, there are no dumb questions:

 

[paulsomlo]

I'll take another run at this today and report back.

 

[Shiftless]

I found pics from 10 years ago when I bought my first bullet. It was seized. I removed the end cap and the tubular nut and rigged up a puller using 3/4 inch all-thread, some nuts and a stack of washers. That’s a 24 inch Snap On breaker bar. It flexed a bit but didn’t break.
I could put the slide under pressure using the redneck puller and then bang on the big nut from behind with a dead blow hammer.

 

[paulsomlo]

I found pics from 10 years ago when I bought my first bullet. It was seized. I removed the end cap and the tubular nut and rigged up a puller using 3/4 inch all-thread, some nuts and a stack of washers. That’s a 24 inch Snap On breaker bar. It flexed a bit but didn’t break.
I could put the slide under pressure using the redneck puller and then bang on the big nut from behind with a dead blow hammer.

Is the base wood? And how is the block of wood that contains the nut fastened to the base? I'm assuming the nut is that dark cast iron flange?

 

[bonneyman]

I have had the best luck with Jack of All Sprays. Heard about it on Utube - emailed the company and the CEO emailed me back! Tried it and I was blown away! Items that were hopelessly frozen freed up - eventually.

Non-toxic and I use it now in place of WD-40.

Home - Jack of All Sprays

Jack of All Sprays Get to Know Jack Jack of all Sprays traces its roots back to American Oil since 1895®. American Oil developed the original Vitalife® wire rope lubricant used on the suspension cables of the Brooklyn Bridge, where it is still used today. Inspired by today’s advanced and...

www.jackofallsprays.com

 

[Jeff Ivers]

I had the vise upright on my HF 20t press, 1" solid rod between the two jaws resting on aluminum yokes, as shown. I had the yokes blocked from the front to keep the vise from sliding and had a bottle jack horizontal between the press upright and the base of the vise to keep the base vertical. The aluminum disk was interposed between the ram of the press and the back end dynamic jaw. Apparently, the upright bowed with the result as shown - now I have to figure out how to unstick the beam of the press, which got lodged in there pretty good when things let loose. And I've still got a vise that's stuck - doesn't seem to be any rust, just dried up grease.

When looking at your pics, I wondered if your beam was installed upside down. Perhaps it makes no difference, but it seems to me that those angled plates in the beam, if the beam were rotated 180 degrees, would make it less likely that a jam like that would occur.

 

[whateg01]

When looking at your pics, I wondered if your beam was installed upside down. Perhaps it makes no difference, but it seems to me that those angled plates in the beam, if the beam were rotated 180 degrees, would make it less likely that a jam like that would occur.

It doesn't make much difference. At the time it slips off a pin, it's still pretty much horizontal. What makes a difference is making sure the pond can't get out of position.

 

[Jeff Ivers]

It doesn't make much difference. At the time it slips off a pin, it's still pretty much horizontal. What makes a difference is making sure the pond can't get out of position.

Pond? I don't understand your statement.

The reason I raise the question is I have what appears to be the same press and when I had the beam installed as in the picture, when I tried to change the position of the beam and removed a pin, if I did not have the beam held just right it would rotate and drop to the ground. When I reversed the beam, if my hold slipped, the beam would not drop to the ground. Much easier to manage for me. Your results may vary.

 

[paulsomlo]

I have had the best luck with Jack of All Sprays. Heard about it on Utube - emailed the company and the CEO emailed me back! Tried it and I was blown away! Items that were hopelessly frozen freed up - eventually.

Non-toxic and I use it now in place of WD-40.

Home - Jack of All Sprays

Jack of All Sprays Get to Know Jack Jack of all Sprays traces its roots back to American Oil since 1895®. American Oil developed the original Vitalife® wire rope lubricant used on the suspension cables of the Brooklyn Bridge, where it is still used today. Inspired by today’s advanced and...

www.jackofallsprays.com

I don't know Jack.

 

[paulsomlo]

When looking at your pics, I wondered if your beam was installed upside down. Perhaps it makes no difference, but it seems to me that those angled plates in the beam, if the beam were rotated 180 degrees, would make it less likely that a jam like that would occur.

It appears to be symmetrical.

 

[Shiftless]

Is the base wood? And how is the block of wood that contains the nut fastened to the base? I'm assuming the nut is that dark cast iron flange?

Yes, the base is 3/4 inch plywood and that block is a chunk of Doug Fir 4x6 that is screwed on from the bottom with half a dozen 4 inch deck screws.

The dark piece of metal under the nut is a cast iron washer.

 

[RoninB4]

I found pics from 10 years ago when I bought my first bullet. It was seized. I removed the end cap and the tubular nut and rigged up a puller using 3/4 inch all-thread, some nuts and a stack of washers. That’s a 24 inch Snap On breaker bar. It flexed a bit but didn’t break.
I could put the slide under pressure using the redneck puller and then bang on the big nut from behind with a dead blow hammer.

-Glad we cleared that up, thanks. So in your opinion where do you think the problem is? Your photo example showed a round slide that didn't appear to be very corroded/rusty yet it was still seized? What did you determine the problem was and how did you correct it? I briefly worked at Wilton in the 90's but have never owned one so your experience with these exceeds mine. My only other notable experience with a Wilton vise (other than use) is when I was directed to toss 6-8 of the large machinist vises into the scrap dumpster, they make a lot of noise.

 

[Shiftless]

I was directed to toss 6-8 of the large machinist vises into the scrap dumpster, they make a lot of noise.

That must have been painful to see basically OK vises tossed due to flunking the QC exam.
Question... did anybody sneak around after work to rescue those?

On that blue bullet I rehabbed, there was a tiny spot of corrosion on the slide that made it stuck. It scratched the inside of the tubular vise body on the way out. Once it “popped” free, it didn’t take a lot of force to draw the slide out of the vise body. I let it soak for weeks ahead of time using various penetrating oils. On the Wilton bullets there is a clearance of only only .003 when new.

 

[whateg01]

Pond? I don't understand your statement.

Autocorrect. Use context.

The reason I raise the question is I have what appears to be the same press and when I had the beam installed as in the picture, when I tried to change the position of the beam and removed a pin, if I did not have the beam held just right it would rotate and drop to the ground. When I reversed the beam, if my hold slipped, the beam would not drop to the ground. Much easier to manage for me. Your results may vary.

It doesn't matter once the columns start to splay. Heck if they spread enough you could just pull it right out the front or back but by then it would be on the floor because neither pin would be under the bed.

 

[RoninB4]

That must have been painful to see basically OK vises tossed due to flunking the QC exam.

-It was quite painful to do. US Tobacco was closing the machine shop (outsourcing....) and I was required to toss all of them, they were in very good condition. It was a sweetheart arrangement with the scrap dealer, several metal working machines like a *********** Wysong sheet metal shear (2 years old) went to the same dealer for scrap value. It was Chicago and things get done that way......

Question... did anybody sneak around after work to rescue those?

-Oh yeah. I suggested distributing them to different departments around the plant (No everybody has one) Ok can I buy one or two? (No and if you're caught with one you're fired). The potential of a kickback deal was pretty clear. It was Chicago and a lot of fraud/patronage went on there at that plant. I worked in the machine shop at the time and that whole episode was particularly bothersome.

On that blue bullet I rehabbed, there was a tiny spot of corrosion on the slide that made it stuck. It scratched the inside of the tubular vise body on the way out. Once it “popped” free, it didn’t take a lot of force to draw the slide out of the vise body. I let it soak for weeks ahead of time using various penetrating oils. On the Wilton bullets there is a clearance of only a few thousandths when new.

-Just one corrosion spot huh? Seems like some assembly lube should have been used at the factory anticipating this to be a potential problem. I didn't have a very high regard for the decision makers at Wilton either, that's why I left after 3 weeks. Thanks for your input.

 

[whateg01]

-It was quite painful to do. US Tobacco was closing the machine shop (outsourcing....) and I was required to toss all of them, they were in very good condition. It was a sweetheart arrangement with the scrap dealer, several metal working machines like a *********** Wysong sheet metal shear (2 years old) went to the same dealer for scrap value. It was Chicago and things get done that way......

-Oh yeah. I suggested distributing them to different departments around the plant (No everybody has one) Ok can I buy one or two? (No and if you're caught with one you're fired). The potential of a kickback deal was pretty clear. It was Chicago and a lot of fraud/patronage went on there at that plant. I worked in the machine shop at the time and that whole episode was particularly bothersome.

-Just one corrosion spot huh? Seems like some assembly lube should have been used at the factory anticipating this to be a potential problem. I didn't have a very high regard for the decision makers at Wilton either, that's why I left after 3 weeks. Thanks for your input.

It's very common in industry to throw "perfectly good" stuff in the dumpster. Often there's a requirement that it be destroyed first. Accounting doesn't care. Much like there are folks here that have problem cutting a "vintage Craftsman wrench" in half to make it fit in a space or tossing it in the trash because the new snap on is better while somebody is here crying because that was vintage. Part of writing off equipment is that it is disposed of, not resold. It's easy to write stuff off.

 

[RoninB4]

It's very common in industry to throw "perfectly good" stuff in the dumpster.

-You're unfamiliar with how things get done in Chicago and certainly don't know what went on at that plant. Yes I've seen goods tossed at other companies and why that happens. That was not the case here but thanks for offering a reasonable explanation.

 

[paulsomlo]

-You're unfamiliar with how things get done in Chicago and certainly don't know what went on at that plant. Yes I've seen goods tossed at other companies and why that happens. That was not the case here but thanks for offering a reasonable explanation.

When I worked at HP, they would put obsolete parts etc. out at the loading dock and we would rummage at lunchtime. One day, the health and safety guy, who somehow oversaw scrap, saw us and threatened to report us to management. If there was anything good, I went back and snagged it after hours.

 

[Oregon rock crusher]

A company I worked for had a Wilton tradesman on the back of a service truck. It survived many seasons exposed to weather, dust, and a legion of Bubas. I am sure the slide was never cleaned or lubed and a lot of dust and swarf rode the slide into the vise body. Eventually if seized up solid and was tossed in the junk pile.

I plucked it out of a scrap heap a year or two later and decided to have a go at freeing it up. After removing the spindle which was not too difficult I bolted the vises swivel base to a vertical plate of steel using all four bolt holes. I also welded a shelf to the plate to also help support the vise base and hopefully not tear any bolt holes out. Then the plate was welded to a very solid leg on my welding table. I left it hanging on the rack, *** up, for a week or so pouring the penetrating oil to it often.

I also cut a heavy piece of shaft that was the right diameter to cover the seized slide and welded a handle to it. After a week or so I got out the 16# sledge and smacked the shaft a few times...hard. I did notice a little movement so went back to alternating between more penetrating oil and more BFH. After a few rounds the slide came right out and after a heavy wire wheeling slid in and out without restriction. Put back to work you would never know she'd once been scrap iron.

 

[paulsomlo]

Well, success... sort of. Turns out, the slide is bent, see pics below.

Some background - the vise showed up on FB Marketplace in Cheyenne, about 50 miles north of here. I know someone up there that I see on a regular basis, so I arranged for her to make the pickup. It was listed at $40, and from the pics, it was obvious that one jaw was missing, as well as the dust cap. My friend calls me from the guys place, "the guy says the vise is broken, but he'll take $10 for it". I said sure, do it.

I'll post a pic of the fixturing I used on the press - not being able to clear the opening in the beam with the dynamic jaw was a contributing factor to this being so difficult. I ended up using these triangular aluminum riser blocks and finally resorting to the "donut" shown to get even more clearance. The sides of the press are now bowed - the support point being offset from the ram didn't help.

So, can I straighten the slide on my shop press?

 

[Shiftless]

So, can I straighten the slide on my shop press?

You sound like a resourceful fellow, but I seriously doubt that you can get that poor old slide straight enough to work satisfactorily.
From the look of it, I bet that some gorilla cranked that vise almost all the way open and whacked something in the jaws with a BFH. Or maybe the vise was all the way open and it fell off a bench.

(I predicted bent slide back in post #37)

 

[RoninB4]

-Effing incredible that it bent. Most cast iron doesn't like to bend/flex and just fractures, this must be a very malleable type. Can you straighten it in your shop press? Doubtful that will happen and even if you did you'd need a lathe to turn the remaining bend true enough to clear the bore if a previous poster was correct in there being very minimal clearance between slide and bore.

-On the other hand.....you got nothing to lose by trying. Glad it came apart but sorry to see the results. Report what you do. Good luck.

 

[PCustoms]

This is after you already had things fly off the press once?

 

[paulsomlo]

This is after you already had things fly off the press once?

Yes - what happened, is that the cross beam supporting the vise shifted all the way to the right, then the uprights bowed. 2nd attempt, I blocked the cross beam so that it couldn't shift.

 

[paulsomlo]

-Effing incredible that it bent. Most cast iron doesn't like to bend/flex and just fractures, this must be a very malleable type. Can you straighten it in your shop press? Doubtful that will happen and even if you did you'd need a lathe to turn the remaining bend true enough to clear the bore if a previous poster was correct in there being very minimal clearance between slide and bore.

-On the other hand.....you got nothing to lose by trying. Glad it came apart but sorry to see the results. Report what you do. Good luck.

You would think, if it can be bent, it can be straightened, no? Yes, I have a lathe.

 

[PCustoms]

Yes - what happened, is that the cross beam supporting the vise shifted all the way to the right, then the uprights bowed. 2nd attempt, I blocked the cross beam so that it couldn't shift.

I can't say I would have attempted that setup twice...

 

[whateg01]

Does heat shrinking work on iron?

 

[alfadan]

One thing's for sure, that HF press ain't gonna straighten it!

 

[paulsomlo]

One thing's for sure, that HF press ain't gonna straighten it!

Maybe, maybe not - we'll see.

 

[Mike007]

It looks like the bend is in the middle. I bet you could straighten it enough. I'd make some kind of blocks with half-rounds to support the ends and press it in the middle with another block. Maybe apply some heat with a large rosebud? Nothing to lose trying. I think in the end you'll get it one way or another.

 

[crguy]

This is testament to the tolerances to which these vices were made, I suppose.

That's not a high precision vise.

 

[RoninB4]

You would think, if it can be bent, it can be straightened, no?

-Looks like we're all going to find out. A brief search for info gives mixed results. Those saying you can't are most likely basing that opinion on the crystalline structure of regular gray cast iron. For malleable/ductile cast iron several say yes and have even done it. The iffy part of bending it is the yield point and nobody will know where that is except the metallurgist at Wilton. Heat will help, have you got an oxy/acetylene rig? What has been suggested at one website (PM) is heating to 1400°F. Big question is whether your HF press has enough tonnage left in it to effect a change. There was also some discussion about slow cooling in sand and an interesting posting about chilling, that it tends to lock -in the molecular structure to avoid creep. This is what they used to do in Detroit to cast engine blocks to "season" them. I lived near the Dana Corp. and I recall seeing them dump a load of blocks in the yard to weather the Winters in Michigan. This is all in uncharted waters beyond my meager experiences but I am interested in what you decide to do and the results.

Yes, I have a lathe.

-You may have to turn down the round slide diameter smaller than would be palatable to get an acceptable fitment. Maybe not, material only has to come off the outward bow and either end can remain untouched. How does the lead screw fit to the tubular nut? The resulting clearance of slide-to-bore may also require a larger key to compensate. Uncharted waters here Captain.

-S'nice. Resembles a Monarch, many were, supposedly, a rebadged Colchester.

 

[paulsomlo]

-Looks like we're all going to find out. A brief search for info gives mixed results. Those saying you can't are most likely basing that opinion on the crystalline structure of regular gray cast iron. For malleable/ductile cast iron several say yes and have even done it. The iffy part of bending it is the yield point and nobody will know where that is except the metallurgist at Wilton. Heat will help, have you got an oxy/acetylene rig? What has been suggested at one website (PM) is heating to 1400°F. Big question is whether your HF press has enough tonnage left in it to effect a change. There was also some discussion about slow cooling in sand and an interesting posting about chilling, that it tends to lock -in the molecular structure to avoid creep. This is what they used to do in Detroit to cast engine blocks to "season" them. I lived near the Dana Corp. and I recall seeing them dump a load of blocks in the yard to weather the Winters in Michigan. This is all in uncharted waters beyond my meager experiences but I am interested in what you decide to do and the results.

-You may have to turn down the round slide diameter smaller than would be palatable to get an acceptable fitment. Maybe not, material only has to come off the outward bow and either end can remain untouched. How does the lead screw fit to the tubular nut? The resulting clearance of slide-to-bore may also require a larger key to compensate. Uncharted waters here Captain.

-S'nice. Resembles a Monarch, many were, supposedly, a rebadged Colchester.

I don't have oxy/acetylene - I've got a torch and one small bottle, still need hoses and another bottle. This is not an urgent project, so it could wait until I've got some heating gear assembled.

One idea is to turn down the slide, sleeve it and re-cut the slot for the key.

The lathe is a Colchester Chipmaster.

 

[whateg01]

If you just turn down the high spot on the tail it's going to **** the movable jaw. I would expect the first part of the tail to be in line with it

 

[Shiftless]

That's not a high precision vise.

It is said that the Wilton factory machines those for a clearance of .003 inches.