Updated Chinese Cut50F Group Buy

[Aquamoose]

I do accept CC payments for my business (I have Sage) but as with all CC payments, it's required that I send products as soon as the CC transaction goes through. Also, I'm not going to mix my business with this. My accountant would have a field day with me if I did.

I'm leaning towards to just do the MO option. Like I've explained, everyone will either get a refund or a cutter. Just a crappy situation I got us in.

China just walked in the door so we're corresponding.

 

[e-rockin-it]

Would seem reasonable to me that instead of invoicing for the "purchase of a cutter" you could invoice for "the service of brokering a discount purchase of a cutter and delivery service" this way I think everyone is covered?

 

[The Cobbler]

KUDOS to Aquamoose, you've created a ton of work for yourself, and you need to be commended for your "volunteer" work on this project. bet you're wishin you never got invloved LOL .
I'm in this for the duration, I'll keep an eye here for updates

 

[Aquamoose]

Would seem reasonable to me that instead of invoicing for the "purchase of a cutter" you could invoice for "the service of brokering a discount purchase of a cutter and delivery service" this way I think everyone is covered?

Well why didn't you tell me that before?

KUDOS to Aquamoose, you've created a ton of work for yourself, and you need to be commended for your "volunteer" work on this project. bet you're wishin you never got invloved LOL .
I'm in this for the duration, I'll keep an eye here for updates

Initially, I was scrambling for the "Abort" button. But now, given some time, there's a way out. Now I know how Dorothy feels when she's not in Kansas anymore.

 

[fatherof4]

Chalk this up to "no good deed goes unpunished." Whatever you decide I'm sure the majority of us will be fine with, you've gone above and beyond already. I'm just over here dying to hack up some metal.

 

[e-rockin-it]

Lol. I've never really used PayPal before other than to buy things on ebay. Didn't know this kind of stuff happened. Really sorry for your headache. But maybe like I said you can re-word invoices and everything is good? Here in Canada there is actually a difference between a car dealership and car broker. The car broker never actually owns the car and only purchases on the customers behalf. Not a lawyer but maybe it'll help

 

[Ameshel]

Aqua moose , I am down for what ever way will be easier for you , I think doing the square reader and having the group phone you with a credit card # should be the fastest. We would still have the protection and you would have the money in time to send to China. Just figure out what the cost are going to be and will added to the credit card payment . I think you are going to have to refund the PayPal purchase,hopefully can keep the gift money if not will just transfer it to the square payment. Unfortunately PayPal flags went up because of the $$$ size oh well keep the faith andym


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk, hobbiest ,Hobart 140 mig welder, Hobart ac/dc stick, miller 250 sycrowave tig, thermal dynamics plasma, Chicago electric 180 mig ( modified of course) , Powermatic/Everede mill.

 

[NoSloCoupes]

Sorry guys, i'm out... in for the refund.

Thanks for doing this Aquamoose.

 

[olds463]

Coudn't you just refund the 2nd half, reinvoice as a service instead of a sell of a good?

 

[Ohmthis]

I'm still in, which ever is decided! Thanks again aquamoose, you've really jumped through all of the hoops to make this go!!

 

[gungatim]

"(d) are for the sale of certain items before the seller has control or possession of the item"

seems to me, the seller is in control and has posession. the seller is in China. you are a broker. there should be a way around this I would think.

maybe the way to look at it is you are the seller, the factory is your contract manufacturer technically, so you do have control and posession.

are you using a letter of credit? it should be tied into the funds.

 

[xanmato]

Aquamoose,

I am not in this group buy or anything, but I may have a solution for you based on Square as another member has mentioned.

You do not have to take credit card numbers from anyone, since I am sure many people would be uneasy about this. Instead, use Square's invoice tool. You create an inventory product, in this case the cutter, and then send out invoices for them to the buyers. The invoices are sent by Square, and the online credit card transactions are also handled by them. I believe you pay a lower percentage in fees compared to paypal, and you will have the money by 9pm next day.

I hope this helps.

 

[63roundbody]

Sorry you're having problems but, I'm still in. Let me know what I can do to help and as others have said thanks for your efforts.

Tom

 

[tonydanzah]

maybe you should post a list of the first 120 people. I would like to know what number I am so I know how to procede.

 

[Ben Buck]

I'm still in, sent a money order first thing.

I'm out buying filters and what not for the unit!

I'm keeping the faith.

Looking to cut some stuff up!

 

[neonizagas]

maybe you should post a list of the first 120 people. I would like to know what number I am so I know how to procede.

Was thinking the same!

I just looked at the invoice and it has a number! Is that the number for the list?

 

[bczygan]

MO not good for me.

I used PayPal credit.

 

[rslaback]

Realistically, a lot of guys who are in on this group buy are going to be hard to contact to explain the situation and get alternative payment. I can almost guarantee only a small percentage are watching this thread and we saw with invoices that email and PM aren't even that reliable.

I see a lot fewer problems if we forget about the number (at least initially) and see how many guys can be contacted and send alternative payment. I'm pretty sure I am in the first 120 but I don't have a problem with sending alternate payment. If that means that number 175 still gets the cutter he is expecting instead of an unexplained refund that is fine with me.

I think if we just refund the orders after 120 there is a huge risk of the total number of participants dropping like a rock and that puts Sean in a bad spot.

 

[bczygan]

Is there a way we can provide a receipt of product to you, to free funds, or a waiver?
Can we provide a statement that you are a broker for us, not a reseller?

Which specific people's funds are being held?
Can you list?

 

[nhfatboy]

I will be the first to say it, since I am an outsider, a noob, if it is beneficial to the group buy I will take the refund to make it easier for the group. No harm, no foul and my thanks all the same for working this out.

 

[rslaback]

If I am understanding this correctly, the issue here is really PayPal's terms of service. PayPal requires immediate shipping of a product. This actually happens to protect PayPal from chargebacks so it is actually more about the credit card companies than it is PayPal. The rule is in place so that products are immediately shipped. The longer a transaction takes, the larger the window for problems. Imagine if the factory making our cutters has an explosion, our cargo boat sinks, Sean has health issues etc. and all of a sudden they have a case of 200 some transactions that need to be reversed. Chargebacks also increase the longer a situation takes to complete. People get impatient etc. Chargebacks cost PayPal money both literally and in terms of staff time and also damage their relationships with the credit card companies.

In terms of whose money is held up, the issue isn't that simple. Sean's entire account is grouped together and the remaining balance is frozen until he provides shipping information. He was able to use some of the money to place our deposit (which PayPal would contend should've gone to shipping) but the remaining money is stuck in limbo. What Sean is trying to do is to get enough payments switched over so that he can pay to purchase the rest of the cutters and then pay to ship them all to us. It isn't a specific cutter (or 100) that is in limbo it is all of them.

PayPal doesn't know Sean from the man on the moon and has no reason to trust him whatsoever. What they as a company are worried about is a legitimate business issue. They have no way of knowing that Sean won't be taking our $50,000 getting it in cash and then skipping town. If that were to happen, all 200 of us would do chargebacks. When a chargeback happens, the credit card company basically just takes their money back. Should that happen, PayPal gets screwed out of 50some thousand dollars so you can see their concern.

 

[Beemer533]

maybe you should post a list of the first 120 people. I would like to know what number I am so I know how to procede.

Im guessing it will be the list in post #1 as that is more or less the order in which orders were taken..

Was thinking the same!

I just looked at the invoice and it has a number! Is that the number for the list?

This post edited by the NSA

 

[tonydanzah]

Im guessing it will be the list in post #1 as that is more or less the order in which orders were taken..



This post edited by the NSA

hard to say, i paid my invoice almost immediately. But i was high on the list from the original group buy list.

 

[Aquamoose]

Got a few things and a good plan coming up tonight. Stay tuned!


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[Beemer533]

Realistically, a lot of guys who are in on this group buy are going to be hard to contact to explain the situation and get alternative payment. I can almost guarantee only a small percentage are watching this thread and we saw with invoices that email and PM aren't even that reliable.

I see a lot fewer problems if we forget about the number (at least initially) and see how many guys can be contacted and send alternative payment. I'm pretty sure I am in the first 120 but I don't have a problem with sending alternate payment. If that means that number 175 still gets the cutter he is expecting instead of an unexplained refund that is fine with me.

I think if we just refund the orders after 120 there is a huge risk of the total number of participants dropping like a rock and that puts Sean in a bad spot.

You are definitely right about folks being hard to reach, so if needed I am willing to do the MO as well.

This post edited by the NSA

 

[bczygan]

Got a few things and a good plan coming up tonight. Stay tuned!


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Just talked to PayPal

Sean. Call me
Sending pm

 

[bczygan]

Sean,
Talked to a rep. He added some info to the account.
I explained the group buy and you were just our facilitator.
He said to call 888 221-1161 and ask for limitations. They need more info. To release funds. I explained chicken and egg problem and said we could provide waivers or document he is our representative.
This sounds fixable.
Bill

 

[Beemer533]

hard to say, i paid my invoice almost immediately. But i was high on the list from the original group buy list.

I meant more that the list more reflects the order in which folks posted here to get in on the buy, not really when they were invoiced and paid.

But I get your point that it probably isn't the most accurate, but not sure how else to go about things if it comes down to it.

It may not matter anyway, since it sounds PayPal may work with us.

 

[klieber]

So, first off, I can't even imagine the complexity behind this group buy. So, from my perspective, no big deal that we hit a snag -- it's to be expected. I appreciate the transparent communication.

I'm invoice #39 and I paid within ~90 minutes of receiving it, so I'm going to assume I'm safely in the first batch that's already been paid for and that I don't have to sweat any of this.

I agree that, given the two options (investing $29k of your own money or refunding the second ~half of the group) the second option is the only viable one. Hopefully paypal will find a way to work with us on this.

Thanks again for all the work that's gone into this!

 

[Aquamoose]

I called PayPal again and got the same results so it's not going to work out with them so I'll be moving forward with the Money Order route tomorrow. Basically I'll take the top numbers of the invoices and keep them the way they are and start refunding the remainder. I WILL be able to reach everyone on the refund list since I have the emails from there so no one will be left out, guaranteed. I'll explain the situation as mentioned here and give them the option of doing the Money Order route.

My contact in China is working with me very well and they're going going to produce $25k worth and pause for two weeks until I get the count from the money order. The buy-in is still closed to outsiders. I will hammer out the details in specifics through emails and here.

In a nutshell, what once was a delivery date of mid April is now gonna be late April. Pretty much what i projected as the worst case scenario in terms of delivery expectation from the onset of the Buy-in. There are likely going to be those who drop out and I have no problems processing refunds as China understands.

After I get some sleep, I'll be back with the fine details. As bad as it seems, it's salvageable. More work, yes, but the bottom line remains the same, either you get your cutter or your $ back.

I should add, those who paid via Money Order are safe regardless of invoice number.


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[toldert]

I'm still in. Had to break out the torch to cut a couple holes Friday. What a mess. Time delay is not a problem. The real issue is that we are all like a bunch of kids who were just told they have to wait an extra two weeks for Christmas.

 

[falconero]

Money order sounds good to me, im with ya..

 

[ybnormal70]

When will be get the list of who is what number for the first 120? I would much prefer to stick with paypal if I'm one of the first 120 please.

Thanks,

Kevin

Just wanted to add that I'm definitely still in and if I have to send a MO I will but I would prefer to leave it with paypal.

 

[gayler]

Money order works for me too.

 

[Beemer533]

Too bad PayPal wouldn't work with us.. Oh well. Again, I am still in regardless.

Let me know if I can help with anything.

This post edited by the NSA

 

[lonesouth]

i'm still in

 

[Disney]

I'm still in for whatever it takes. I really appreciate how well you've run this group buy. It's been an adventure for sure!

 

[tonydanzah]

When will be get the list of who is what number for the first 120? I would much prefer to stick with paypal if I'm one of the first 120 please.

Thanks,

Kevin

Just wanted to add that I'm definitely still in and if I have to send a MO I will but I would prefer to leave it with paypal.

same for me, hopefully I'm one of the 120 that paid first so I stick with PayPal.

 

[bfdladder10]

I'm still in .. I have no problem sending a money order even if I'm one of the first 120

Doug

 

[LoupFou]

Ugh, too bad it isn't working out with Paypal.

As others have said I would prefer to leave payment with Paypal but I can get a money order if it comes to that.

Will the top 120 be invoice numbers or list numbers?

From this:

... Basically I'll take the top numbers of the invoices and keep them the way they are and start refunding the remainder. ...

It sounds like it will be first 120 paid invoices?

Thanks for continuing the work on this Sean, hopefully it will be smooth sailing once this payment issue is sorted out.