How is that possible when the packaging says "No-Hassle Lifetime Guarantee" and instructions for warranty?
Upgrading screw drivers
- Thread starter hoffman912
- Start date
How is that possible when the packaging says "No-Hassle Lifetime Guarantee" and instructions for warranty?
Ton ton
Well-known member
Me and my brother tried multiple times to warranty kobalt tools @ lowes.
pizza
Well-known member
lol. this warranty gives you specific legal rights to be told off, no questions asked.
rlitman
Well-known member
Talk to a manager to have the idiot at customer service retrained.
OP
hoffman912
Well-known member
Nope still here. watching and taking in everything people are saying. Seeing the bent pb swiss ones has pretty much eliminated them from the list.
I like the ergonomic handles on the hazets, and there is something about them and Porsche or VW cars, but im not sure thats quite reason enough to pull the trigger. I am trying decide if its the idea of hazets or if they are that good, or right...
These posts have me mostly leaning towards Wiha Microfinish and Vessel now, with hazet in 3rd...
I am still observing and learning in this thread before i decide though.
2Convertibles
New member
I've been thinking about screw drivers as well...I've always had craftsman in my garage and a hodge-podge in my barn to use for non-precision work (chipping at stuff, stirring stuff, persuading things to open etc.)
I'd be interested to hear if the expensive ones hold up better versus buying a new set from Harbor Freight every quarter to 6 months!
I'd be interested to hear if the expensive ones hold up better versus buying a new set from Harbor Freight every quarter to 6 months!
sberry
Banned
Have you been buying them every 6 months?
I've looked and looked for Sunflag 215's, for delivery to the U.S., specifically the cross point #3. I come up empty. Any idea where to source these?
measuredtwice
Well-known member
Thanks!
You are right to question it. It is bad info. The original patent has been posted on the forum previously. It will provide the truth.
Can you post a real photo instead of the line drawings to illustrate the difference between real screwdrivers?
Many of the drivers that people on the internet call "JIS" are not even labeled "JIS" by the manufacturer since the recognition system went extinct 12 years ago. In Mr Lemon's quotes, Vessel says their drivers fit both JIS and ISO screws.
Here's a USA made Apex 440-2X bit and a Vessel 2H bit side-by-side. Apex on the right. Vessel on the left.
Attachments
measuredtwice
Well-known member
If you look for damaged tips, you will find examples from most brands. Look on Amazon.de (Germany) and you will find customer reviews saying the Hazet drivers break. Iirc there are also photos. I don't have them and don't know if they are good or not.
Personally, I like having multiples of what I use most and I also like having specialty tools. That is more important to me than sets. I know most folks like having sets but having everything match isn't as important to me as having the best for every task.
For flat drivers (not flat drivers used as pry bars), I like the nicely machined Klein screwdrivers that are made to fit American fasteners. I also like the PB Swiss flat drivers because the unique Swiss VSM standard with parallel sides fits and works so well on precise tasks. I don't view them as the appropriate tool for brute force. I try not to use German drivers on American fasteners because they don't fit as well. For pry bars, anything will work.
For Phillips, I have many different drivers from Vessel, PB Swiss, and many other European and USA makers. I typically grab either a Vessel or European Phillips.
Does it drive anyone else nuts when people butcher Pozidriv screws with a philips ? I can't count how many "electricians" I've worked with who just jamb their Klein PH2 in there and hope for the best.
Unless it's a NEMA contactor with ancient slotted head screws or something, 95% of the stuff I run into is Pozidrive but people just don't seem to get it.
I wonder if it's ignorance or laziness at work
Unless it's a NEMA contactor with ancient slotted head screws or something, 95% of the stuff I run into is Pozidrive but people just don't seem to get it.
I wonder if it's ignorance or laziness at work
PelicanPines
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Spent the day yesterday, intimately, with my new #2 Vessel. I'm in love... It's also very magnetic. You know those Phillips screws that look #1ish in size... but are not #1... Had a bunch of those to deal with. The #2 Vessel was a joy to deal with.
My normal complaint with magnetic tips... dang metal dust collectors...
Gonna hunt down a #1 Phillips Vessel and 3/16" Flat next.
My normal complaint with magnetic tips... dang metal dust collectors...
Gonna hunt down a #1 Phillips Vessel and 3/16" Flat next.
measuredtwice
Well-known member
If you want to try the Vessel ball grip drivers, Zephyr Tool Group is selling them on Amazon for $7 shipped. Don't know why an American industrial screwdriver bit manufacturer is selling them!?
Haha! They also have a good deal on their own Zephyr #2 ACR bits.https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01CH1I2RC/?tag=atomicindus08-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B015IAQEHY/?tag=atomicindus08-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B015IBCQUC/?tag=atomicindus08-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B015IBJP3I/?tag=atomicindus08-20
I do prefer the Megadora but these reversible drivers are handy. They have a Megadora style handle that will fit the bits but I have not found a cheap source for it in stock.
I have this Vessel ball grip. I pretty much only use the -6/+2 bit out of the 3 that are included with it. It was cheaper when I bought it... think I paid $13 shipped.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00E55DL4I/?tag=atomicindus08-20
Sears sells the Craftsman branded Impactas. https://www.sears.com/craftsman-2-pc-impact-screwdriver-set/p-00986616000P A while back, I stacked a bunch of their crazy coupons to get several sets for dirt cheap.
the Vessel black micro-nubbies handle might be the best handle for automotive work - but you have 3 components in a good screwdriver: handle, tip, and a fixture to add a wrench for torque - not sure if they have the latter but the tips seem good
for Phillips, I like the PB Swiss, with a Vessel Impacta in case a screw is frozen
Hazet sockets go well with a 912... but you do want some ko-ken nutgrips
OP
hoffman912
Well-known member
Yeah I wasnt too serious about Kobalt, but didnt know if the prevailing thought was screw drivers are screw drivers just get cheap ones.
volpster31
Well-known member
buy PB SWISS swissgrips and youll never want to use another driver....ive bought them here and there so i dont have a complete set,but i grab them before my weras every time
sberry
Banned
I was wondering about the 6 months? Was this speculative or from actual experience. I bought a couple 2 or 3 years ago when I was headed to a wiring job and they were so nice they were the new go to kids on the block, wore them pretty regular for couple years and they still act like virgins. I havnt bought others on this thread but a bit of Sears and some old cheap fleas along with a few 1 off,,, but quite a bit of Klein back in the day, everyone raves about this but I like the new cheap even better.
I dont know if it will be better in 10 years but my Klein are worn out and I pay a lot a long time ago and didnt keep them from it. So if wearing a HF out is a minor concern which,,,, aint happened yet with these, havnt broken one, cant tell they didnt land here last week, grips look new yet.
So far they are as good as the old 8 or 10$ tool not sure how they compare to 8$ tool today, as good as any Teckton type thing I am sure. The acquisition effort is so minimal. They are warranted and havnt had a reason so far. I am not sure how long they made these models?
I dont know if it will be better in 10 years but my Klein are worn out and I pay a lot a long time ago and didnt keep them from it. So if wearing a HF out is a minor concern which,,,, aint happened yet with these, havnt broken one, cant tell they didnt land here last week, grips look new yet.
So far they are as good as the old 8 or 10$ tool not sure how they compare to 8$ tool today, as good as any Teckton type thing I am sure. The acquisition effort is so minimal. They are warranted and havnt had a reason so far. I am not sure how long they made these models?
Last edited:
sberry
Banned
I dont think just get the cheapest, I am sure somewhere you can find a cheaper screwdriver than HF. I dont think you can find a better one at this cost, dont think you could get it any cheaper. I think it would takes multiples of its cost to get any better. Its often sold other places with a different brand stamp. Its got so good the operators use it cant tell any difference and often prefer it.
macgee
Well-known member
I can totally see why wanting to get Hazet's since you have a 912, it makes sense and if you like the shape to the handle to boot. I guess now it would be up to finding good enough reviews to justify them.
I have to say I'm pretty dissatisfied the two small slotted PB's I have (and no they were not used as pry bars when they bent), they're soft but this is almost certainly just a bad batch or something, PB has way too good of a track record and I would not write them off, they make excellent products and Swiss quality is rarely beaten, especially in the milling tooling business.
I realized I had a bunch of JIS screws on a Japanese drill press that I just rebuilt and decided to test out which felt the best.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50534251593_57850a91d4_h.jpg
At first I thought PB Swiss was an excellent fit, then tried Wera and Felo's, those two fit by far were better, Wiha was the worst and it was not close. There's so many different things and angles going on in a JIS/PH screw head design that little changes can make a big difference. One thing I am sure about is trying to test screw head with hex bits in magnetic hex socket driver *****, there's so much play that you couldn't really tell what was a good fit and what was not, a solid one piece drivers gave you the best feel and feedback. Trying good hex ratchet drivers was even worse, way too much runout/play.
#2 PB felt good inside the screw but there was more side to side play and would not stay in the screw without holding it, it did not seem to go in as far; so not a perfect fit on all axis. The Wera felt rock solid on all axis's and would not fall out, same with the Felo to some degree. The Wiha (brand new) was loosie goosie, I tried several different ones with same result. I didn't try any USA #2 phillips drivers as I don't have any readily available but I did try a Apex #2 bit it was similar to the Wiha but didn't seem to go further in as much but would be ok'ish to use. My Hozan's must be in storage with my other bike tools., so no joy testing them.
Pic is a new Wera #2 in a JIS screw.
The whole JIS discussion is a very good one and much more info by informed screwdriver engineers/pro's is needed than by us pundits just going back and forth. The talk and hearing about about JIS no longer used and its all changed is tiring, now a days they cant label it JIS but they certainly can make the exact same JIS drivers by JIS specs, they just cant call it that, there now open to alter the design. Let's be honest, it makes total sense for a japanese company to call there driver a phillips than a JIS since the whole world to some degree is using PH screwdrivers. Its a much bigger market and a smart move.
I'm liking Vessel more and more I will say I would like to get a #0, #1, #2 (JIS
) sized drivers from them, I dont need another metric slotted driver, I like my Felo 550's.Also found that Chapman makes JIS hex bits.
https://chapmanmfg.com/products/crosspoint-bits-for-japanese-indus-std-jis-screws
There was a company called Ames that sold JIS drivers made in Germany (green handle) for japanese copier machine repair technicians and there's a company in Canada called Go Fast Innovations thats currently selling JIS screwdrivers $40 shipped to US. Their pics shown below
https://www.gofastinnovations.com/store1/JIS-Screwdriver-Set-p104013955
Last edited:
measuredtwice
Well-known member
You pulled that photo from the web. Take a real photo of your real Vessel, real Wiha, real Wera, real Felo drivers and it won't look like that. It will look like my photos.
And from left to right: PB Swiss, Wiha Softfinish, Felo blue handle, Vessel Megadora 900, Vessel ball grip.
Attachments
Last edited:
GrantCee
Well-known member
At one time, I insisted that my screwdrivers have either a square shaft or a wrench bolster — even though, when I actually used them, they didn't seem to help all that much.
What I have used, with more success, is a through-tang. I've found that a couple of raps with a brass mallet loosens even the most stubborn screw.
Of the two, I think the through-tang is more practical and effective.
I live in Japan, and ordered all my Sunflag drivers from Amazon Japan. Just checked, and they appear to be in stock. They are hard to search for because Amazon lists them as "Sun Flag", "Sunfrag", or "Sun Frag" (by autotranslation) and a katakana substring, so the ASIN codes are as follows:
#2 plus driver: ASIN B005QGWC72
#3 plus driver and flat driver set: ASIN B005QGWCKE
They are really inexpensive -- less than $4 for the #2 and less than $6 for the set. Both are sold directly by Amazon, so may ship to the US. Good luck!
Last edited:
Vessel Impacta
if that won't do it, get out the impact driver
if that won't do it, get a torch
RoundedNut
Well-known member
Since the OP is still around, I'll share some of my thoughts.
Most European and Asian brands seem to follow the ISO standard to some degree, which is pointedly NOT actual Philips. They do work well on Philips and JIS screws however. As a side note, "Philips" is trademarked for screws but not screwdrivers, hence the willy-nilly use of the term.
The usual chisel or keystone shaped slot screwdrivers are useless except as pry bars. Hollow ground slot tips are best, and are what bits use. The thickness of the slot is important, more so than the width to match between screw and tip.
Screwdriver bits are better to use than fixed blade drivers except for specialty use such as impact or striking cap drivers. The good bits are significantly harder, will last longer and of course are cheaper to replace. 3"+ long bits with the appropriate handles are the best option.
Most European and Asian brands seem to follow the ISO standard to some degree, which is pointedly NOT actual Philips. They do work well on Philips and JIS screws however. As a side note, "Philips" is trademarked for screws but not screwdrivers, hence the willy-nilly use of the term.
The usual chisel or keystone shaped slot screwdrivers are useless except as pry bars. Hollow ground slot tips are best, and are what bits use. The thickness of the slot is important, more so than the width to match between screw and tip.
Screwdriver bits are better to use than fixed blade drivers except for specialty use such as impact or striking cap drivers. The good bits are significantly harder, will last longer and of course are cheaper to replace. 3"+ long bits with the appropriate handles are the best option.
Ton ton
Well-known member
I have some screwdrivers with a through tang.
Last edited:
bsaint
Well-known member
Does anyone even like Matco screw drivers? The handle seemed odd shaped.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
macgee
Well-known member
They're made by Witte Germany
bsaint
Well-known member
Well VW is german and we can all agree those cars are garbage
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
visionguru
Well-known member
Have you considered Snap On?
I have screwdrivers from PB Swiss, Wiha, Felo, Snap On, Craftsman, Vessel, Carlyle,..... I think German tools are over-rated. If it's made in Germany and not expensive (such as Felo), it only means it's German junk.
From the Hazet screwdriver picture in your first post, I already can notice flaws on the handle finish.
There are lots of great information in this thread. If I had to do it over again, I'd only get Snap On and Vessel, otherwise, Craftsman screwdrivers are great around the house.
Last edited:
Bubba Fett
Well-known member
I will say this: I bought some Craftsman screwdrivers on sale (impulse buy) a while back. I mainly bought them because they were still the USA made (by Western Forge) versions, not the Chinese versions.
I can see why Western Forge has closed down. I hate to say that, but the Phillips #1 and #2 wouldn't fit the associated screws. They would not even make it halfway in. I was able to file them down a bit to fit better, but that's unacceptable. The Taiwan-made SBD Craftsman drivers at Lowe's are probably better.
Point is this: Craftsman screwdrivers were great back in the day, but that time has long past, and there are far better options. Any of the ones mentioned in this thread will be better. My favorites are Klein, Wiha, and Megapro, but that comes down mostly to comfort, the way I hold screwdrivers, and the kind of work I do. I've been on the fence about Vessel, but the more I read about them, the more I want to order a couple.
I can see why Western Forge has closed down. I hate to say that, but the Phillips #1 and #2 wouldn't fit the associated screws. They would not even make it halfway in. I was able to file them down a bit to fit better, but that's unacceptable. The Taiwan-made SBD Craftsman drivers at Lowe's are probably better.
Point is this: Craftsman screwdrivers were great back in the day, but that time has long past, and there are far better options. Any of the ones mentioned in this thread will be better. My favorites are Klein, Wiha, and Megapro, but that comes down mostly to comfort, the way I hold screwdrivers, and the kind of work I do. I've been on the fence about Vessel, but the more I read about them, the more I want to order a couple.
I've tried one or more of nearly every brand in this post at one time. And I don't rate Snap On screwdrivers super-highly - either hard handle or comfort grip. Not any of the tips either.
I put PB Swiss and Vessel at the top, with older Hazet a close 2nd.
Crapsman are near the bottom but above one sitting in a "buy this you rube" display sitting on the front counter at a parts house in the '70s - I bent it in half while the guy was in back.
I put PB Swiss and Vessel at the top, with older Hazet a close 2nd.
Crapsman are near the bottom but above one sitting in a "buy this you rube" display sitting on the front counter at a parts house in the '70s - I bent it in half while the guy was in back.
GrantCee
Well-known member
I'd agree with that assessment. The SO I've had weren't particularly good; neither were their Williams hard handle cousins.
Hey now, Craftsman flat blade screwdrivers make great prybars!
Dave455
Well-known member
I think this has been touched on, but if the O.P. is working on German cars, he almost certainly needs Pozidriv drivers rather than Phillips.
I see much talk of Phillips, and JIS vs ISO, but none of these will fit Pozidriv screws well - in fact I can guarantee they won’t!
The only exception would be older vehicles before Pozidriv were standard in Germany.
Even cheaper drivers that are of the correct form or size, will fit better and last longer, than expensive ones that are not!
Ignoring the driver far left, here are some Pozidriv drivers. The PB Swiss (green handle) is the best, then the short Stanley with the blue handle, then the Irazola (far right). The Snap On has a lovely handle and a good quality steel blade, but the fit is the worst of all of these! I generally like Snap On drivers though. I can’t think of any better if you want inch sized slotted tips.
Some years back, many makers of Pozidriv screwdrivers used a different steel for the Pozidriv compared to the rest of the range. I have often wondered if the steel was part of a spec that the makers had to adhere to in order to use the “Pozidriv” name.
Attachments
Last edited:
sberry
Banned
I bought 4 pieces on the rube display at the lumber yard for a dollar a piece 25 yrs ago. i finally lost 2 about 20 yrs in and still got 2 and suitable as a utility. A premium like a Klein was 7 at the jobber and I bought them to toss on the dash of a pickup to set some gages. We just needed these screwdrivers and originally charged them to some outfit I was working for probably. Cheap handle not so big you tend to brutalize with it but they stayed true a long time. A little smaller handle and bigger tip, looked like the old Sears plain ones, real generic but they were tuff, I still use it, had 1000's of screws with it.
sberry
Banned
I was trying to see if I had a pic, I bet it was real common. The colors stood out, yellow and blue or kind of purple maybe. Ya, that one right in the middle. I recognize a flea survivor in there too. That one has been around a long time. Hard to say. Dear Dad might even brought it from a Quality Tractor store of old. A couple sets of those maybe in 91 or so. maybe ATD a set I cant recall but just needed something and I recall 14.95. They got used hard. Only tools we really broke other than some Cman sockets and half a dozen impacts we hit quite a bit where we beat the **** out of them farming and oilfield.
That utility knife snuck in there, its in the trash as its not a Stanley. Also if I was really leaning on it a hammer with a stronger handle.
That utility knife snuck in there, its in the trash as its not a Stanley. Also if I was really leaning on it a hammer with a stronger handle.
Attachments
Last edited:
macgee
Well-known member
Its pretty close, Posidriv was born around '62 and 912 in '65 but you're right; I doubt there's any on a 912 except maybe on the ('76) 912E?
I think what we work on and what we do dictates which screwdrivers to consider as your primary. Its different for a lot of us.
A pro mechanic at a dealership needs drivers for fasteners on a current up to date car. Sersiouly doubt that mechanic will ever wrench a '67 912 unless it's a personal car. The 912 owner doesn't need to worry about what works on a 2015 porsche.
Working on older american farm equipment is is probably better off with US (imperial) designed screwdrivers. But there's lots of overlap. Matching the driver profile with fastener head profile is the key for a solid fit and less wear.
Agree above about S-O/Williams. I bought the Williams slotted only set to use on old amercian machinery, they're not bad and don't mind the handle, you can get good torque with it but all the tip corners are rounded, they now look like PB' profile but not bent and I just tune them up when needed. I got them on sale and they're my go to for those ugly messy demo machinery jobs, I don't mind using them as pry bars or abusing the hell out of them and they been holding up pretty well, handles almost look new. They're easy to replace and cheaper than my euro sets (or they were). I don't think I would buy them again, probably just use NOS Stanley 100 Plus for the quarter of the price and then abuse it like I stole it.
The S-O soft handles are a personal preference if you like them or not and they're super pricey for what you get (still WF drivers), personally I would rather have a Felo or other grip with stronger tips. I don't think the S-O tips are any better than the Williams, both are from Western Forge. I think you can get a PB Swiss set for around the price?
Last edited:
sberry
Banned
Dave, I remember we had a green one like that, maybe 2 that had good tips that last a long time and worked till someone broke the handle with a hammer. Even after that it hung on some tractor box for a long time. Did all kinds of stuff to try and kill it. Vise grip the handle.
I can also remember and probably got a couple Stanley, different models that hung around a while. A ****** driver was the old phillips cman. A computers aided some steel mfg the tips really got better. As it got cheaper to makeit got btter. I remember those orange flea specials, we did break them , we did less pry and hammer with our better tools but they were sharp till you busted them and the ones we been using now look like new after a fair bit of use? No breaks but I hammer less junk than I used to.
I can also remember and probably got a couple Stanley, different models that hung around a while. A ****** driver was the old phillips cman. A computers aided some steel mfg the tips really got better. As it got cheaper to makeit got btter. I remember those orange flea specials, we did break them , we did less pry and hammer with our better tools but they were sharp till you busted them and the ones we been using now look like new after a fair bit of use? No breaks but I hammer less junk than I used to.
Last edited:
Dave455
Well-known member
Fair enough!
If it’s a 912 it won’t! Didn’t know if that could be assumed!
Haven’t done much on Porsches that old, but seem to recall it’s a right mixture.
Many British manufacturers adopted Pozidriv fairly early on. Mid 60’s I think. The Germans much later.
Last edited: