Vapor Sealed Electrical Boxes Required for 70+ boxes...

[Gopherboy6956]

I'm builing my 1200sq shop and am currently finishing up electrical. I had the inspector over about halfway through the process to verify my plan was sound, and on thing he mentioned is that I'll have to have vapor sealed boxes - either the boxes themselves that have the vapor flange, or the add on flanges. He said I could also foam around the boxes with a template on the front.

This is the first time i've ever heard this was required. Granted, we are in North Dakota, so maybe it's a city or state level code, but regardless I have over 70 individual boxes in my shop and using $5 single gang boxes (almost $10 for the 2 gang) vs the $.90 boxes is insane.

What are others doing that have run into this? I'm currently torn between getting the gaskets (about $1.80 each) or creating templates out of cardboard or maybe 3d printing them that I can then spray foam up against.

Pics of what I'm talking about below

Box with Seal built in -


Seal add-on


Thanks!

 

[larry4406]

It's a new Code requirement.

 

[reader2580]

These have been required in Minnesota for houses since 2000. They appear to be required in heated garages in MN too, but I haven't done enough research.

 

[dcg9381]

New to me. Looks like an IRC requirement, apparently Table N1102.4.1.1 (R402.4.1.1).

Seems there is a "choice":
Either install the electrical boxes on the interior side of the air control layer or use airtight boxes

I don't think I've ever seen this....

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

This is required as per the energy code……… It’s not new and it is seldom enforced.

BTW! "IF" the energy code is adopted in your state or municipality inspectors should be enforcing the code.

 

[AC-WC]

Could you get away with this?

https://www.menards.com/main/electrical/wall-plates/frost-king-electrical-outlet-and-switch-sealers/os12h/p-1531117747977-c-1489667504662.htm

 

[Gopherboy6956]

My inspector made a note of it when he did a quick consult a few weeks ago, so I know he'll be looking for it. I wonder if I most people in this situation arent doing spray foam, which would qualify, or if most structures don't hear near as many exterior wall outlets as my shop of only exterior walls...

Either way, i'm gonna call the inspector monday and find out.

If I have to, I'm seriously leaning towards a 3d printed template that I can spray foam up against. A few mil thick wont take long to make 15 or so of them to use at a time.

The problem with the existing products and even the boxes you can buy, is they're all 1/2" setback for drywall and i'm doing tongue and groove carsiding thats closser to 7/8" thick.

 

[mm08822]

Air tight would require cable penetrations to be sealed also not just sealing the surface finish material opening.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

My inspector made a note of it when he did a quick consult a few weeks ago, so I know he'll be looking for it. I wonder if I most people in this situation arent doing spray foam, which would qualify, or if most structures don't hear near as many exterior wall outlets as my shop of only exterior walls...

Either way, i'm gonna call the inspector monday and find out.

If I have to, I'm seriously leaning towards a 3d printed template that I can spray foam up against. A few mil thick wont take long to make 15 or so of them to use at a time.

The problem with the existing products and even the boxes you can buy, is they're all 1/2" setback for drywall and i'm doing tongue and groove carsiding thats closser to 7/8" thick.

No problem!……. Just install some "box extensions" on the combustable T&G areas.

 

[mm08822]

This is required as per the energy code……… It’s not new and it is seldom enforced.

BTW! "IF" the energy code is adopted in your state or municipality inspectors should be enforcing the code.

So if I sealed the cable pentrations into the the cheap blue box with caulk, and then either joint compounded the perimeter of the drywall opening or caulked it, would it pass?

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

So if I sealed the cable pentrations into the the cheap blue box with caulk, and then either joint compounded the perimeter of the drywall opening or caulked it, would it pass?

I would approve it as long as you had the foam plate gasket, I really don’t know if some "overzealous" inspectors would do the same.…… I know a few of these wacky inspectors who take pride in failing jobs and making peoples lives miserable.

 

[mm08822]

I would approve it as long as you had the foam plate gasket, I really don’t know if some "overzealous" inspectors would do the same.…… I know a few of these wacky inspectors who take pride in failing jobs and making peoples lives miserable.

I'm talking w/o the foam plate, just sealing the perimeter of the box using the full depth of the drywall making the seal.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

I'm talking w/o the foam plate, just sealing the perimeter of the box using the full depth of the drywall making the seal.

You should be OK because you met the intent of the code by stopping drafts with caulk.

 

[kbuhagiar]

Just as an aside, a question to all the sparkys here - how much would you expect this new code requirement to raise the cost of new work?
Ten percent? More?

 

[larry4406]

So if I sealed the cable pentrations into the the cheap blue box with caulk, and then either joint compounded the perimeter of the drywall opening or caulked it, would it pass?

I'm talking w/o the foam plate, just sealing the perimeter of the box using the full depth of the drywall making the seal.

We have been Energy Star on our homes for many years now. All of the electrical boxes on exterior walls were spray foamed between back of the box and the sheathing to seal all of the cable penetrations.

We were told explicitly be our AHJ that this technique would no longer be acceptable with the new Code.

We have never caulked the box to the drywall for the final seal but see how that would be an improvement.

 

[PCustoms]

70 boxes in 1200sqft seems excessive.

 

[allinon72]

My experience working with inspectors…create a relationship with them early and keep open lines of communication. If coming up with a unique solution to a code related issue, just run it by them and get their thoughts, do not assume. Right or wrong, they can ruin your entire project if they have the wrong thing for breakfast on the day of the final.

 

[theoldwizard1]

It's a new Code requirement.

I swear the people who write the code books work for the manufacturers/suppliers.

Example : Tamperproof receptacles. I have raise 2 children and am in the process of assisting with 6 grandchildren. The only one who tried to stick something in one of the slots was ME !

 

[mm08822]

My experience working with inspectors…create a relationship with them early and keep open lines of communication. If coming up with a unique solution to a code related issue, just run it by them and get their thoughts, do not assume. Right or wrong, they can ruin your entire project if they have the wrong thing for breakfast on the day of the final.

I agree %. I have found that to work in my favor getting alignment BEFORE starting the job. I only want to install once, not twice while getting paid only once.

I posed my q to @Chuckster in NJ as he was once an AHJ in my area. I know another inspector could see it differently.

 

[mm08822]

I swear the people who write the code books work for the manufacturers/suppliers.

Example : Tamperproof receptacles. I have raise 2 children and am in the process of assisting with 6 grandchildren. The only one who tried to stick something in one of the slots was ME !

And looked what happened!

 

[dcg9381]

The problem with the existing products and even the boxes you can buy, is they're all 1/2" setback for drywall and i'm doing tongue and groove carsiding thats closser to 7/8" thick.

Can you use the typical "tile" shims to offset?

My NEC bane has been combo AFI/GFI breakers. I'll never do those again. They false all the time. From now on it's AFI breaker and GFI outlet, for some reason that works better.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

I swear the people who write the code books work for the manufacturers/suppliers.

Very TRUE and it is well known that the NEC is a "manufacturer driven code" because manufacturers want the trades to use their products. The one that sticks out the most is a guy name is Reiker and he submitted a code change requiring fan rated boxes back in the 1980’s…….. He holds the patent on these boxes and his name is all over these yellow fan rated boxes.


BTW! ANYONE can submit code recommendations so "IF" you have ideas or inventions that you think should be introduced in the next code cycle just go for it.……. You too can become a millionaire!

 

[dscheidt]

It’s a shop. Run exposed conduit on the inside of the drywall.

 

[reader2580]

Just as an aside, a question to all the sparkys here - how much would you expect this new code requirement to raise the cost of new work?
Ten percent? More?

It cost me about $1 more per box in 2001 to buy the vapor tight boxes for about $100, or less, in additional materials cost. The electrical materials cost me around $2,000 to $2,500 if memory serves. That means a 5% increase in material cost at most. Labor probably costs more than materials.

If someone says it adds 10% more to the cost of electrical for a new house they are probably padding the bill.

 

[reader2580]

Air tight would require cable penetrations to be sealed also not just sealing the surface finish material opening.

The boxes I have used also have foam gaskets on the cable penetrations.

 

[Gopherboy6956]

70 boxes in 1200sqft seems excessive.

Yea - I can understand that viewpoint for sure. But as a person who loves to learn new hobbeis, i'd much rather have too many than not enough and be prepared for whatever things I get into in the next hopefully 40 years or so.

Almost all of them are 20a circuits too, and 17 of them alone are just for the lights - I wanted a very even lighting scene.

 

[Gopherboy6956]

My experience working with inspectors…create a relationship with them early and keep open lines of communication. If coming up with a unique solution to a code related issue, just run it by them and get their thoughts, do not assume. Right or wrong, they can ruin your entire project if they have the wrong thing for breakfast on the day of the final.

Thankfully I get along well with this inspector - I called him out early in my rough-in process to make sure my plans were viable and that I wasn't going to have to redo stuff after running nearly 1000ft of cable. He has been easy to work with thus far, so I'm hopeful my plan of creating a spray foam seal will work. I'll update this thread after I talk to him tomorrow and share my 3d printed template in action if it will work.

 

[Gopherboy6956]

Can you use the typical "tile" shims to offset?

My NEC bane has been combo AFI/GFI breakers. I'll never do those again. They false all the time. From now on it's AFI breaker and GFI outlet, for some reason that works better.

I guess i'm not sure - i'm not familiar with what youre referencing. I know the problem with the premade gasket plates are the fact that they cover the front of the box, keeping me from being able to slide it all the way back to the stud, leaving a gap behind them.

 

[Gopherboy6956]

It’s a shop. Run exposed conduit on the inside of the drywall.

That will be my option if I need something more once the walls are done, but as it stands I've almost finished wiring in the panel, and I have 19 circuits in there. I still have to run two more outdoor outlet circuits but... its cold out lol.

 

[PCustoms]

What is that panel fed from?

 

[Gopherboy6956]

What is that panel fed from?

This - Had the socket on my house upgraded to 400a so I have 200a to the house and a seperate 200a to the shop. That way I didnt have to try to trench out from the basement and mess with the house electrical.

 

[PCustoms]

This - Had the socket on my house upgraded to 400a so I have 200a to the house and a seperate 200a to the shop. That way I didnt have to try to trench out from the basement and mess with the house electrical.

Well there's a whole bunch of other stuff your inspector should fail you for before he hits the boxes...

 

[Bad Habit]

Gonna need a ground with that feeder, along with ground rods (I'm assuming it's a detached shop). Are your circuit grounds going to the neutral bar?

 

[mm08822]

Well there's a whole bunch of other stuff your inspector should fail you for before he hits the boxes...

From this picture.....what?

 

[PCustoms]

From this picture.....what?

Unless I'm missing something, isn't this a sub panel?

He's missing a ground, needs to add ground bars to separate the grounds/neutrals and the bonding screw needs to be removed...

 

[mm08822]

Nope. Not with what is shown. It is a meter/main.
Not until he hits the cbs is there need for gec, bonding, 4 th wire on feeder.

 

[PCustoms]

Nope. Not with what is shown. It is a meter/main.
Not until he hits the cbs is there need for gec, bonding, 4 th wire on feeder.

Cbs?

 

[mm08822]

Cbs?

The 2 enclosures below the meter enclosure are for circuit breakers (cbs) or at least disconnects.

The service entrance conductors aren't even terminated and you're trying to pop him for finished job conditions. ???

 

[Bad Habit]

No, the picture he posted is a sub panel. Grounds can't go to the neutral bars, bonding screw needs to be removed. Needs ground rods (doesn't look like there's any for the meter/mains anyway, but ...).

He's got all the circuits made up in the panel, even if it's got a ways to go before being energized, it's still wrong and will have to be changed

 

[PCustoms]

The 2 enclosures below the meter enclosure are for circuit breakers (cbs) or at least disconnects.

The service entrance conductors aren't even terminated and you're trying to pop him for finished job conditions. ???

What are you talking about?

I'm not talking about the pan and the 2 disconnects, I'm talking about the obvious sub panel fed from one of those disconnects:

That will be my option if I need something more once the walls are done, but as it stands I've almost finished wiring in the panel, and I have 19 circuits in there. I still have to run two more outdoor outlet circuits but... its cold out lol.