OK. Pcustoms replied to the metermain Pic. If the meter/main is simply a meter and 2 disconnects only(no ocp), then the panel in post 29 is a main panel.
Vapor Sealed Electrical Boxes Required for 70+ boxes...
- Thread starter Gopherboy6956
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Can you flip the cover up on the disconnect and take a picture?
What type of insulation on the panel feed conductors?That will be my option if I need something more once the walls are done, but as it stands I've almost finished wiring in the panel, and I have 19 circuits in there. I still have to run two more outdoor outlet circuits but... its cold out lol.
OP
Gopherboy6956
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Just to get all this in one shot -
This is considered a main panel, not a sub panel. This does not in any way connect to my house's main panel. The picture posted above was from the socket upgrade on the house.
As this is a main panel, my electrical inspector told me that all the grounds and neutrals terminate in the same bar.
I do have a ground wire running into the panel, its right there in the picture
I also have two 8' ground rods that I painstakenly pounded (not really) when I rented the skidster to cover up the trench. The panel is fully live right now, and I unfortunately had to finish terminating all the circuits in there last night while it was live, because its around zero degrees F here right now, and the shop isn't yet insulated and I needed heat It was everything the 80k btu big maxx could do to keep it 43 degrees in there.
(I feel "Shed" is a bit reductive)
(ground wire)
(ground rod 1 of 2)
OP
Gopherboy6956
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Hmm?
(I feel "Shed" is a bit reductive)
(ground wire)
(ground rod 1 of 2)
I must be missing something, I don't see how the "shed" is a main panel....
Does that bare copper ground go in the conduit, all the way back to the meter/disconnect, or just to the ground rods?
This is a meter/main. The 2 blue handled devices are cb's.
The panel in your house and the shed are sub panels.
So your shed sub panel needs a 4 wire feeder, unbonded neutral, and egc's seperated from the neutral blocks as Pcustoms mentioned. And this is true for BOTH SUB PANELS.
I hope that feeder is not URD.
I hope your electrical inspector doesn't think the shed panel is a main panel as you have it all wired up.
Did the inspector realize there would be cbs at the meter? Or just think it would have dual lugs?
The panel in your house and the shed are sub panels.
So your shed sub panel needs a 4 wire feeder, unbonded neutral, and egc's seperated from the neutral blocks as Pcustoms mentioned. And this is true for BOTH SUB PANELS.
I hope that feeder is not URD.
I hope your electrical inspector doesn't think the shed panel is a main panel as you have it all wired up.
Did the inspector realize there would be cbs at the meter? Or just think it would have dual lugs?
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The bare copper exits through the enclosure shown in the 1st sub panel pic.
I figured, just like when I asked to see what this was fed from was hoping the OP would show me I was wrong.
Guy likely spent thousands on this install which appears pretty jacked up, but is complaining about the cost of air sealing his (excessive?) boxes.
SMH
dave*99
Well-known member
Yikes. Lots of rework needed to make it right.
rancherbill
Well-known member
Use these things they are cheap when you buy contractor packs.
https://www.homedepot.ca/product/ib...203__ALL_PLA-526641&pid=1000176244&store=7223
https://www.homedepot.ca/product/ib...203__ALL_PLA-526641&pid=1000176244&store=7223
OP
Gopherboy6956
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Ok - let me see here -
First of all - I genuinely appreciate all of the comments, insight, questions, recommendations. This sub has been the best online source of information on my shop build, all the way from concept last january, through framing, to today. So from that standpoint, I appreciate you all.
I am not in any way, shape, or form an electrician - just a guy who's finished a basement, decent with electronics, and thinks I understand a fair amount about residential electric. There is ABSOLUTELY a chance that terminology I've used or the way i've described things is incorrect - but - I feel strongly that my panel is currently wired correctly, with the one exception that could be anything i've done recently hooking up the remaining circuits. I will 100% follow this up after my visit with the inspector tomorrow.
I used a licensed master electrician to upgrade the socket on my home - which came as a recommendation from my local power company when I inquired about what I wanted to do.
I have 4/0, 4/0, 2/0 triplex aluminum URD coming underground from the street box a few houses away, to the meter / disconnect on the side of my house. From there, it now splits 200a into my house, and 200a into the new shop. There is no ground wire that goes into that box, just the 3 wires from the street - the panel in my basement also has ground rods (one left visible in the concrete). I included a picture of the old meter box / disconnect they took off the wall before installing the new one (i guess I get to keep it?) - Eaton model CMBXB200BTS.
From there, I again used 4/0, 4/0, 2/0 triplex (as recommended by the power company and purchased from my electrician) and trenched it into the shop. I was not required to run a ground in the trench as I was going to have to pound in 2 new ground rods for the shop.
The inspector that i've been working with is also the inspector that checked and signed off on the electrician's work upgrading my socket. That same day we test energized my panel in the shop, and both the electrician and inspector were happy with it. All of the triplex connections, ground wire connections, and the bonding screw were present that day as they are now. I actually had purchased a ground bar for inside the panel assuming they'd need to be separate ground and neutral busses.
I also asked the inspector to stop over after I put in all of my boxes but before I ran the were, because I knew there were things I didn't know I didn't know - like GFCI outlets can't be out of reach, which I had planned a few for a future loft addition, 240v nuances - things like that.
Oddly enough, the thing that he was most adamant about was that we had one dedicated recepticle / circuit without switches or anything else for each 'stall' of the garage, calling mine a 3 stall. Thankfully I didn't have to change my plans, just how I grouped some outlets, because I had so damn many as was eluded to above lol.
Anyways - tomorrow i'll have the inspector stop by, i'm ready for my rough-in inspection. I'll keep you updated!
Old Meter Panel
Planning for the future, not knowing what I'm gonna need for recepticles lol
8ft LED Fixtures just arrived today, will be 12 of those total, 4 of some other yet to pick out lights over the future loft, and the fun hexagon lights under the loft floor
First of all - I genuinely appreciate all of the comments, insight, questions, recommendations. This sub has been the best online source of information on my shop build, all the way from concept last january, through framing, to today. So from that standpoint, I appreciate you all.
I am not in any way, shape, or form an electrician - just a guy who's finished a basement, decent with electronics, and thinks I understand a fair amount about residential electric. There is ABSOLUTELY a chance that terminology I've used or the way i've described things is incorrect - but - I feel strongly that my panel is currently wired correctly, with the one exception that could be anything i've done recently hooking up the remaining circuits. I will 100% follow this up after my visit with the inspector tomorrow.
I used a licensed master electrician to upgrade the socket on my home - which came as a recommendation from my local power company when I inquired about what I wanted to do.
I have 4/0, 4/0, 2/0 triplex aluminum URD coming underground from the street box a few houses away, to the meter / disconnect on the side of my house. From there, it now splits 200a into my house, and 200a into the new shop. There is no ground wire that goes into that box, just the 3 wires from the street - the panel in my basement also has ground rods (one left visible in the concrete). I included a picture of the old meter box / disconnect they took off the wall before installing the new one (i guess I get to keep it?) - Eaton model CMBXB200BTS.
From there, I again used 4/0, 4/0, 2/0 triplex (as recommended by the power company and purchased from my electrician) and trenched it into the shop. I was not required to run a ground in the trench as I was going to have to pound in 2 new ground rods for the shop.
The inspector that i've been working with is also the inspector that checked and signed off on the electrician's work upgrading my socket. That same day we test energized my panel in the shop, and both the electrician and inspector were happy with it. All of the triplex connections, ground wire connections, and the bonding screw were present that day as they are now. I actually had purchased a ground bar for inside the panel assuming they'd need to be separate ground and neutral busses.
I also asked the inspector to stop over after I put in all of my boxes but before I ran the were, because I knew there were things I didn't know I didn't know - like GFCI outlets can't be out of reach, which I had planned a few for a future loft addition, 240v nuances - things like that.
Oddly enough, the thing that he was most adamant about was that we had one dedicated recepticle / circuit without switches or anything else for each 'stall' of the garage, calling mine a 3 stall. Thankfully I didn't have to change my plans, just how I grouped some outlets, because I had so damn many as was eluded to above lol.
Anyways - tomorrow i'll have the inspector stop by, i'm ready for my rough-in inspection. I'll keep you updated!
Old Meter Panel
Planning for the future, not knowing what I'm gonna need for recepticles lol
8ft LED Fixtures just arrived today, will be 12 of those total, 4 of some other yet to pick out lights over the future loft, and the fun hexagon lights under the loft floor
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OP
Gopherboy6956
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Just the ground rods outside the shop.
OP
Gopherboy6956
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I spent $3,200 on the new meter panel, labor to swap it, and 200ft of 4/0,4/0,2/0 Triplex. The rest of the electrical has been done by myself.
OP
Gopherboy6956
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Ok - this all got my brain fired up - Not because i'm scared to be wrong, i'm wrong a lot! But because I couldn't believe that both my electrician (who has been in business for 18+ years) and the local inspector have it wrong.
So I ran outside, took a bunch of photos of my main meter box (brrr, also its 2am) and then read A LOT.
The conculsion that i've come to that makes everything right - is that the meter box on my house now has two DISCONNECTS, not circuit breakers. It's a Milbank U6585-X-2/200-5T9.
That makes my shop panel service equipment and not a subpanel.
My old meter box, the Eaton, has a CSR 25k circuit breaker in it and my panel in the house basement has 4 conductors and separate ground and neutral bars - installed when our house was built in 2015.
My understanding is that Utilities and AHJ's prefer this method because it's safer for firefighters, etc.
Now i'll be able to sleep but will still complain about the cost of air sealing my excessive boxes, @PCustoms
Thanks again for the comments everyone, because of this rabbit hole, I learned a bunch tonight.
larry4406
Well-known member
billconner
Well-known member
Interesting. I installed several 2 years ago and no trips.
Ok - let me see here -
First of all - I genuinely appreciate all of the comments, insight, questions, recommendations. This sub has been the best online source of information on my shop build, all the way from concept last january, through framing, to today. So from that standpoint, I appreciate you all.
I am not in any way, shape, or form an electrician - just a guy who's finished a basement, decent with electronics, and thinks I understand a fair amount about residential electric. There is ABSOLUTELY a chance that terminology I've used or the way i've described things is incorrect - but - I feel strongly that my panel is currently wired correctly, with the one exception that could be anything i've done recently hooking up the remaining circuits. I will 100% follow this up after my visit with the inspector tomorrow.
Also for reference, I'm in Fargo, ND - just in case location / state laws differ from others.
I used a licensed master electrician to upgrade the socket on my home - which came as a recommendation from my local power company when I inquired about what I wanted to do.
I have 4/0, 4/0, 2/0 triplex aluminum URD coming underground from the street box a few houses away, to the meter / disconnect on the side of my house.(This is fine as it terminates in the metermain OUTSIDE.) From there, it now splits 200a into my house, and 200a into the new shop. There is no ground wire that goes into that box, just the 3 wires from the street - the panel in my basement also has ground rods (one left visible in the concrete). I included a picture of the old meter box / disconnect (Yes it does perform a disconnect function but it uses a circuit breaker, as does your new metermain.) they took off the wall before installing the new one (i guess I get to keep it?)(Yes, no one wants it.) - Eaton model CMBXB200BTS.
From there, I again used 4/0, 4/0, 2/0 triplex (as recommended by the power company (They told you the wrong info, they ae not NEC experts by any means) and purchased from my electrician) and trenched it into the shop. I was not required to run a ground in the trench as I was going to have to pound in 2 new ground rods for the shop. (Ground rods have nothing to do with the requirement for including an equipment grounding conductor as part of the feeder to the shed.)
The inspector that i've been working with is also the inspector that checked and signed off on the electrician's work upgrading my socket. That same day we test energized my panel in the shop, and both the electrician and inspector were happy with it. All of the triplex connections, ground wire connections, and the bonding screw were present that day as they are now. (Then they were both wrong with the feeder for the shed. Elsewhere you state the house panel has a 4 wire feeder. That is needed and is correct. The shed needs the same. I actually had purchased a ground bar for inside the panel assuming they'd need to be separate ground and neutral busses. That was/is the correct thinking.
I also asked the inspector to stop over after I put in all of my boxes but before I ran the were, because I knew there were things I didn't know I didn't know - like GFCI outlets can't be out of reach, which I had planned a few for a future loft addition, 240v nuances - things like that.
Oddly enough, the thing that he was most adamant about was that we had one dedicated recepticle / circuit without switches or anything else for each 'stall' of the garage, calling mine a 3 stall. Thankfully I didn't have to change my plans, just how I grouped some outlets, because I had so damn many as was eluded to above lol.
Anyways - tomorrow i'll have the inspector stop by, i'm ready for my rough-in inspection. I'll keep you updated!
Old Meter Panel
Ok - this all got my brain fired up - Not because i'm scared to be wrong, i'm wrong a lot! But because I couldn't believe that both my electrician (who has been in business for 18+ years) and the local inspector have it wrong.
So I ran outside, took a bunch of photos of my main meter box (brrr, also its 2am) and then read A LOT.
The conculsion that i've come to that makes everything right - is that the meter box on my house now has two DISCONNECTS, not circuit breakers. It's a Milbank U6585-X-2/200-5T9. (Those 2 disconnects are CIRCUIT BREAKERS. The labelling and spec sheet clearly indicate as such. The "200" on the trip handle also indicates as such.)
That makes my shop panel service equipment and not a subpanel. NOPE! The service entrance equipment stops at the metermain. Everything else from it is a feeder and sub-panel. Just like your house panel was/is.
My old meter box, the Eaton, has a CSR 25k circuit breaker in it and my panel in the house basement has 4 conductors and separate ground and neutral bars - installed when our house was built in 2015. Because it is a sub-panel. The metermain is the main panel.
My understanding is that Utilities and AHJ's prefer this method because it's safer for firefighters, etc.
Sure looks like a breaker to me:
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
OP, don't let this stuff slide because the inspector said it is OK. The notes above are founded in fact and the inspector is wrong. You need to fix the wiring between the buildings.
dave*99
Well-known member
larry4406
Well-known member
Post 58 cut sheet shows that the ground and neutral are factory bonded for that meter can/disconnect setup.
dave*99
Well-known member
And so should your barn.
Chuckster in NJ
Well-known member
Rule #1: Electrical inspectors are never wrong.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Maybe just not up to dateRule #1: Electrical inspectors are never wrong.
Chuckster in NJ
Well-known member
Maybe just not up to date
Chuckster in NJ
Well-known member
I learned something new each day and looking at that picture of the meter pan with the "gray goo" on the wires refreshed my memory when I failed a job for NO PENETROX on aluminum wires and the contractor told me I was wrong so I said: "Well, prove me wrong and I will approve the work" and he did with info from two wire companies.……… It is impossible to keep up to date on changing codes and I was "educated" by contractors (and other peers) and always open minded to intelligent conversations about the codes.Maybe just not up to date
BTW! Respectful and intelligent conversations are "key" to getting your point across and winning with a "wrong" inspector……… Unless the inspector is a ****.
dave*99
Well-known member
A friend asked me to tag along with their home inspector last Friday. This was a pre-purchase inspection. He showed me the "missing" Penetrox. I explained todays alloys. He never heard of that. I see it is still used quite often, I assume just to avoid getting questioned.
Bad Habit
Well-known member
ND has adopted the 2023 NEC, in enforced since since July of 2024. Possible Fargo and/or county could have local codes that over rule the NEC but doubtful they would make changes to lessen safety requirements for grounding. Regardless of raceway in the trench, a ground conductor needs to be run with the feeder.Maybe just not up to date
Bad Habit
Well-known member
big difference between a Home Inspector and an actual AHJ Electrical Inspector.
That was a joke for Chuckster as he is a former AHJ. (joking about a 17 yr old code change.)
The 4 wire feeder requirement has been around since 2008, IIRC.
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
Home inspectors can just "suggest" things. They have no enforcement power. They're notoriously weak on electrical and are wrong most of the time (they often suggest calling a qualified electrician to verify their claims).
Bad Habit
Well-known member
Yep, just dealt with this selling our home. To give the some credit though, he did ultimately investigate and corrected the ding on the report.
dave*99
Well-known member
Very true. The reports I read mostly show a photo of something they saw and a comment to hire an expert or licensed professional from there. The buyer and seller then negotiate what boils down to price from there.
manwithtools
ALLIANCE MEMBER
And they do a terrible disservice to home sellers when they do that. An uneducated potential buyer will get nervous about the numerous "consult a licenced electrician" notes and potentially back out of the deal needlessly. Also in some states, those inspection notes have to be disclosed to the next potential buyers, causing a cascading effect. Home inspectors really tick me off as they won't accept any negating commentary from the home seller who might just understand code better than they do.
dave*99
Well-known member
Certainly there can be code violations noted.
Locally, missing CO detectors and GFCIs' will also be picked up by the local town inspector. One realtor told me he personally installs battery CO detectors for his clients as part of his service.
But in my experience, most of the resulting discussion seems to be between the realtors and their respective clients. Stuff like "The HVAC system is currently working but at it's current age the industry says it is at end of life." Put a few of those in the report and the buyer wants a discount. The seller says its been working fine for me. So it's a negotiation that is solved with $$.
manwithtools
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I'm referring to incorrect violations of code noted.
For instance in my last house sale the inspector noted that the gas water heater needed to be 18" off the floor, not at floor level as it was.. He failed to understand that it was a Bradford White "Defender" series which is specifically rated for installation at floor level in a garage. This became a needless major issue for the buyers.
Even the "licensed" plumber they hired to inspect the installation said it had to raised. Two supposed experts who couldn't be bothered to look up the specs on the heater. The inspector would not remove it from his report even after I provided proof of it being an approved installation.
There were other instances on the same sale of the 4 year old house that had passed inspection fully at the time of construction. No new codes were in effect at the time of sale, no additions or modifications had been made to the structure. I have great distaste for Home Inspectors, they feel they have to provide a lengthy report to insure perceived value for their services. They can't just say "No major issues were found"
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