Water heater connections in new construction.

[alan camby]

So I was looking though my parents new home construction and wondered what you all think of the water heater plumbing. The WH is electric but hasn't been wired yet.

1. No expansion tank for WH. New construction so I assume there has to be a backflow valve at water meter.

2. In place of expansion tank there is a 125psi relief valve that goes to the drain. Hard telling if the little clear hose is pressure or temperature rated. Is this considered acceptable instead of a expansion tank?

3. Tp valve connected to pvc. Temperature rating issue?

4. Pex ran right to hot water hookup. I thought it is highly suggested to have 18" of copper tube / flex line between heater and PEX on both hot and cold hookup.

Parents have their walk through inspection in about a week and they want me to help point out issues. House is located in Johnson County Indiana.

Of the 4 listed concerns above are any a code violation?

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[nadogail]

If the Authority Having Jurisdiction passed it, it is legal.

 

[flat350]

In Illinois next door code used to allow a relief valve on the cold line in lieu of a tank,valve had to have a rating less than the T+P valve,it's the cheap way to do it.

Illinois requires T+P drain to be a metallic pipe.

Used to have to run copper or Galv. off the heater before any plastic piping.

I've been retired for a while so things may have changed,I don't even know if Indiana requires a plumbing license,Illinois tried loosening licensing up a year ago to allow handy hacks to do it and it didn't pass...............

 

[flat350]

If the Authority Having Jurisdiction passed it, it is legal.

Has the house been inspected on finals yet,has it been issued a COA?

 

[rjacobs]

My new construction in Texas has PEX right off the hot side.

The cold side has an expansion tank, but PEX running straight to it.

And as far as code violation, I can ALMOST guarantee there arent any. I dont know any contractors who would willingly violate code. They work with the city/county inspectors constantly and they wouldnt want to get on their bad side or risk their license for something in the grand scheme of a house equates to nothing financially gained or lost. A hot water expansion tank is what, 40 bucks and a little bit of copper is cheap also... While I wouldnt put it over a contractor do so stuff to save pennies, its not there. Again, my opinion knowing a bunch of licensed contractors that have their work inspected by city/county inspectors on a regular basis.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

So I was looking though my parents new home construction and wondered what you all think of the water heater plumbing. The WH is electric but hasn't been wired yet.

1. No expansion tank for WH. New construction so I assume there has to be a backflow valve at water meter.

A) It needs an expansion tank unless there is a well tank.

2. In place of expansion tank there is a 125psi relief valve that goes to the drain. Hard telling if the little clear hose is pressure or temperature rated. Is this considered acceptable instead of a expansion tank?

A) You still need an expansion tank because a "relief valve" will NOT expand.

3. Tp valve connected to pvc. Temperature rating issue?

A) Can’t use PVC....... Look at the pipe and see if it has a rating for hot water because some "non metallic" pipes are rated for this use.

4. Pex ran right to hot water hookup. I thought it is highly suggested to have 18" of copper tube / flex line between heater and PEX on both hot and cold hookup.

A) You are CORRECT...... Needs 18” of copper THEN you can use PEX from there.

Parents have their walk through inspection in about a week and they want me to help point out issues. House is located in Johnson County Indiana.

A) What "Code Standard" are they using?...... The water heater must be plumbed to manufactures instructions and local codes. DO NOT assume that everything is "good" just because it passes inspection, because some of these inspectors don’t know what they are doing.

Of the 4 listed concerns above are any a code violation?

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Hope this helps!

 

[alan camby]

flat350.
I honestly don't know what inspections have been done but I do know some form of inspection has been done for each phase of construction. I am fairly sure they are building all the houses in this addition with the same or fairly close plumbing setup. I have no certifications for plumbing just have read a lot on GJ and other forums over the years. I have seen houses burb water out of a fixture before because of the lack of a expansion tank. Someplace has to be the weak link. If a fixture is not it then the TP or elasticity of the PEX might be taking up some expansion. The relief valve does seem like a cheap way if getting around the problem. I don't go into a lot of homes but I have never seen this setup.

Has the house been inspected on finals yet,has it been issued a COA?

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[rjacobs]

Point blank ask the builder about it and if you dont like their answer ask to meet the plumbing sub-contract and have them explain it. If you still dont like the answer call or drop by the city inspectors office and ask them.

I saw several things during my new home build that looked odd to me and the builder had zero issue fully explaining why they do things certain ways. We had some issues with the electrical and the supervisor of the electrical team met me at the house and we went over everything. I was at the house one day checking things out and one of the city inspectors came by to check something and I asked him a few questions and he spent like 30 minutes showing me all the things they look for. He said "we gotta keep the builders honest otherwise they would bury bodies under the foundations"...and we used a very respected high end builder...

 

[Innovate1]

Hope this helps!

Where do you get the requirement for 18" of copper? Wondering why such a requirement if there is one...

 

[Showkey]

One thing GJ constantly points out daily .........building codes, code enforcement, rules, techniques and common practice in building are highly variable by city, county and state so comparing half way across the country means very little.

 

[kaymccampbell]

Here in Halfassed, your plumber would be in trouble. No external heat trap. No 18" flexible metal whips on the tank. No tank strap. The TnP is OK, assuming it goes to a drain.

 

[klassenl]

Here in Halfassed, your plumber would be in trouble. No external heat trap. No 18" flexible metal whips on the tank. No tank strap. The TnP is OK, assuming it goes to a drain.

And yet where I come from this installation would be perfectly fine.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

Where do you get the requirement for 18" of copper? Wondering why such a requirement if there is one...

See MANUFACTURERS installation instructions.
The installation instructions will tell you everything you need to know about installing the water heater from clearances to piping....... Some manufacturers even have a drawing on how to install.

BTW! "IF" this is a electric water heater you need a disconnecting means within sight....... Most of the time they mount the disconnect next to the heater.

 

[Innovate1]

See MANUFACTURERS installation instructions.
The installation instructions will tell you everything you need to know about installing the water heater from clearances to piping....... Some manufacturers even have a drawing on how to install.

BTW! "IF" this is a electric water heater you need a disconnecting means within sight....... Most of the time they mount the disconnect next to the heater.

Hadn't planned for a disconnect. What code revision did that come into effect? I don't have one for the house done in 2004.

It's a small heater and 120V, 30A circuit. What's the best way to do that?

The disconnect for the furnace is only 15A so a standard toggle switch is what I see used for that. Only other is for the AC condenser and they make disconnects specifically for that.

 

[Bopbop]

Just looking it appears that Indiana uses the International Plumbing Code. Based on this I have the flowing comments:
1 & 2. The IPC requires some type of device for thermal expansion. That could be either an expansion tank or pressure temperature relief valve. Typically the valves have a lower pressure rating than 125 PSI. The expansion tank is the best method. The drain for the relief is not the best. Keep in mind if this pops off it will be very hot and over the set pressure.
3. The relief drain should be CPVC. PVC is not listed for hot water. The Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) may rule otherwise.
4. I see the PEX ran up to the hot water connection all the time. It would be best if it was copper. What is the AHJ's requirements?
5. There should be a check valve on the cold water inlet to the heater to prevent hot water from bleeding back into the cold system.
6. The hot water pipes should be insulated up to the heater. That is a heat / energy lost there. It would not hurt to insulate the cold water piping too.

In the above there are several other items which should also be addressed. But the thing is did the AHJ approved this installation? If so unless you have a contract and plans showing otherwise you are fighting a lost battle. The workmanship that goes on in new residential construction at times can make you cry. the worst part about it all is there are inspectors approving installations that are clueless to what they are looking at.
Once I had an inspector on a commercial building tell me that he only did residential work had did not know the requirements for that type of building. He told me if I was happy with it and it met code he would sign off on the project.

 

[Firebrick43]

Water heaters have to have a relief valve, weather they have an expansion tank or not. This is a safety as a run away gas heater turns into a boiler and can blow the bottom out and the heater promptly departs the house through the roof, hopefully and not blows sideways killing people.

The expansion tank is not a safety, it is a recommendation to make glass lined water heater last longer. The slight flexing of the walls without an expansion tank causes the linine to crack and flake off. Stainless or fiberglass tanks (such as a marathon) don't need one. Most manufactures now will not honor a glass lined tank without an expansion tank.

The thermal expansion ball valve your pumber in lou of an expansion tank is because he was a cheapskate.

 

[Bert_]

Maybe someone can explain the purpose of an expansion tank for a water heater.

My thoughts are that this isn't a closed system. When the water expands it can just push the little bit extra back out to the road.

 

[sberry]

Doesn't really sold like it's a deal breaker either way.

 

[sberry]

I think if there is a check valve on the incoming it needs a tank.

 

[larry4406]

Maybe someone can explain the purpose of an expansion tank for a water heater.

My thoughts are that this isn't a closed system. When the water expands it can just push the little bit extra back out to the road.

In one county that I build new homes in, the water authority requires a back flow valve on the incoming water supply. This in turn necessitates use of an expansion tank as the system is "closed" as you put it. In another county with different water authority, no back flow valve is used thus expansion tanks are not installed since the expanding water can push back out to the main as you suggested.

Our plumbers use CPVC piping. The T&P discharge is CPVC and held up above the drain pan by 5 pipe diameters (~3"). On the gas storage tank type water heaters they use copper for about the first 16-18" then transition to CPVC. On the gas tankless water heaters the CPVC goes straight to the unit. We don't install electric units in our homes.

 

[Innovate1]

See MANUFACTURERS installation instructions.
The installation instructions will tell you everything you need to know about installing the water heater from clearances to piping....... Some manufacturers even have a drawing on how to install.

BTW! "IF" this is a electric water heater you need a disconnecting means within sight....... Most of the time they mount the disconnect next to the heater.

Checked with the AHJ here and noted that the breaker panel is NOT within sight of the heater. They said no local disconnect is needed and the breaker is fine. So, like a lot of things, it depends on local requirements.

 

[larry4406]

Checked with the AHJ here and noted that the breaker panel is NOT within sight of the heater. They said no local disconnect is needed and the breaker is fine. So, like a lot of things, it depends on local requirements.

Usually the “line of site” requirement to avoid a local disconnect can be mitigated with inclusion of a lockout plate at the panel for the circuit. The AHJ here requires that on direct wire water heaters, ovens, direct wire dishwasher, etc.

 

[sberry]

I found an old 30 2 pole Federal box with breaker, going to screw it in to one for a local.

 

[sixty4]

So I was looking though my parents new home construction and wondered what you all think of the water heater plumbing. The WH is electric but hasn't been wired yet.

1. No expansion tank for WH. New construction so I assume there has to be a backflow valve at water meter. Still needs one

2. In place of expansion tank there is a 125psi relief valve that goes to the drain. Hard telling if the little clear hose is pressure or temperature rated. Is this considered acceptable instead of a expansion tank? No

3. Tp valve connected to pvc. Temperature rating issue? yes
4. Pex ran right to hot water hookup. I thought it is highly suggested to have 18" of copper tube / flex line between heater and PEX on both hot and cold hookup. Correct should be copper for 18"

Parents have their walk through inspection in about a week and they want me to help point out issues. House is located in Johnson County Indiana.

Of the 4 listed concerns above are any a code violation? Yes

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Basing all answers off IRC code.

 

[stokefire7]

I'll betcha a dollar their house pressure is a 100 psi.