Waterproof coating on prepped concrete, help?

[cash68]

Hi, I am having my lower below grade garage floor prepped this week, you can view my build thread here:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=346907

I have a guy coming to shot blast the floor, grind it, skim coat it, then regrind.

After that the floor should be prepped, and I would like to use some sort of moisture barrier coating. My floor guy mentioned Koster, but it seems I can't buy it unless I'm a contractor. Is there anything else off the shelf that you guys have used?

I believe I have taken care of most of my moisture issues (it was a clogged gutter), but I want to make sure the coating won't come up if it happens again.

 

[Armorpoxy]

Hi
We carry Koster products if you want to purchase them. Please contact us directly by phone or email with square footage to [email protected]. We also sell our Armorpoxy 2-part epoxy moisture barrier which is less expensive.

Please note though that moisture barrier products should be applied to a shot blasted floor to get good penetration, then a bonding primer for the skim coat, then skim coat applied, and then the skim coat is prepped for coating with epoxy by a light grind.

Koster in fact makes a complete 3-layer 'system' which uses their moisture barrier, acrylic bonding primer, and skim coat/leveler. To get a warranty you would want to use a manufacturer's complete system, as if you don't there is no warranty, only finger pointing in the event of a problem.

We don't agree if we are reading this correctly with the order which your installer is doing this, nor that they may be using different manufacturer's products and we would not do it that way.

Our Prep-Crete Commercial Division www.prep-crete.com is certified for Koster and a variety of other coatings, in addition to the Armorpoxy Coatings so this is something we do have some experience with.

Many thanks.

 

[cash68]

Maybe I wasn't clear. I have the epoxy already; I am just looking for a primer that I can apply to the concrete BEFORE the epoxy, that seals the concrete from moisture. It seems the armorpoxy you mentioned is an epoxy coating.

 

[Armorpoxy]

Hi, kindly contact us directly.

We do offer a 2 part Armorpoxy Moisture barrier which you can use prior to coating. But...this product should be applied to the bare concrete, not an overlay. We dont recommend using a moisture barrier on an overlay. Thank you.

 

[cash68]

Has anyone used Ghost Shield as a moisture barrier before applying the epoxy?

 

[Garage Flooring]

Has anyone used Ghost Shield as a moisture barrier before applying the epoxy?

NOT a good idea. It will fail.

 

[cash68]

How about BoneDry?

https://bonedryproducts.com/products/bone-dry-original-sealer

 

[Shea]

How about BoneDry?

https://bonedryproducts.com/products/bone-dry-original-sealer

Penetrating sealers such as the ones you have mentioned are not intended to be applied before applying a coating. They will effectively block coatings from penetrating the concrete in order to adhere correctly. That is why a sealer test is always done before determining how concrete will be prepped before a coating is applied.

 

[cash68]

Penetrating sealers such as the ones you have mentioned are not intended to be applied before applying a coating. They will effectively block coatings from penetrating the concrete in order to adhere correctly. That is why a sealer test is always done before determining how concrete will be prepped before a coating is applied.

Isn't that what Koster is? He also suggested Vapor Solve. From what I can tell, both of those are penetrating sealers that lock the moisture below the slab, preventing any issues with the top coat.

 

[cash68]

I also found a Rustoleum TVB (Topside Vapor Barrier) on amazon.

It comes in both waterbased as well as 100% solids versions, both seem to be designed to work under an epoxy floor. Anyone have any experience with either?

 

[Shea]

Isn't that what Koster is? He also suggested Vapor Solve. From what I can tell, both of those are penetrating sealers that lock the moisture below the slab, preventing any issues with the top coat.

Yes, when they are used in a complete system as ArmorPoxy had described. The other products you have mentioned are not designed to be used in such systems.

BoneDry is essentially a densifier. If you were to apply it, it would require properly profiling the concrete afterwards since it will effectively prevent most coatings from establishing a mechanical bond. If you were to use it, you would want to be applying before you skim coat. The reason is that many reacting sealers such as densifiers do not always work well when applied to skim coats. The reason is that many skim coats are polymer-modified which tends to reduce the reactive process of these types of products. I highly recommend talking with the manufacturers to discuss compatibility issues before you make a purchase.

 

[RPH]

These guys are giving you the truth. I used Ghostshield 4500 densifier and Ghostshield 8505 on my floor. All I can tell you is nothing sticks to it. Even ice, it comes off like a pancake. I'm impressed with the performance.

 

[cash68]

What about the rustoleum TVB? I have a rustoleum rock solid kit so it's the same brand.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

I also found a Rustoleum TVB (Topside Vapor Barrier) on amazon.

It comes in both waterbased as well as 100% solids versions, both seem to be designed to work under an epoxy floor. Anyone have any experience with either?

Buy something cheap and you get what you pay for.
Good products like our Aqua-Dike, come with a price because they WORK!
http://www.legacyindustrial.net/products/primer-coatings/aquadike-vapor-barrier.html

 

[cash68]

Is anyone here not trying to sell me something?

Seriously the only people who have replied own companies pushing their products.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Once people have completed projects they don't hang around the Flooring forum too long. The info you have received so far is very good and might have saved you a " I screwed up my floor" post.




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[cash68]

Well I am on a time crunch, as I had originally had a guy coming this Friday. If you guys are saying I need to put the moisture barrier down first, fine, rad, great, but unless I can get your products locally and do it tonight or tomorrow, it doesn't help me.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Call Epoxy-Coat, they might have something for you. They are in WI.


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[Jsf721]

I don't own a company and I have a moisture issue. I have looked and sani tred made a good waterproofing system.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Keep in mind that these products do a great job but there are limits. If you are seeing moisture develop on the floor, especially when it rains, you may want to avoid anything but a breathable product or even a poly tile system from garage flooring LLC, etc...


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[Antoddio]

The floor doesn't look that bad. What sort of epoxy are you putting over top? Flakes?

You could have the guy shotblast, moisture vapor barrier primer, patch cracks with thickened 100% solids epoxy, do a full flake coverage w/ epoxy and top coat. Not sure why the guy is shotblasting and grinding twice, but depends on the type of floor you are looking for. Still that seems excessive.

 

[lakeroadster]

I used Eagle Natural Seal on the concrete slab in my barn.

It's available from Home Depot. Water beads up nicely.

... Aqua-Dike ...

Aqua - Dike.. Is that Aqua-Man's new gender fluid side kick?

 

[cash68]

I haven't seen moisture develop on the floor in ... 10 months? I think it's fixed. I'm just worried about it; if my gutter clogs again and it rains for a day, will my floor be ruined? Or does it take a while to destroy it?

 

[Antoddio]

You'll prob be alright. I've had my hot tub leak all over my epoxy floor twice and it didn't matter. Also I've left a sample board of epoxy on my outdoor porch all winter. Doesn't seem to have done anything.

 

[kd3pc]

I haven't seen moisture develop on the floor in ... 10 months? I think it's fixed. I'm just worried about it; if my gutter clogs again and it rains for a day, will my floor be ruined? Or does it take a while to destroy it?

your question begs a response that is in line with what you are wanting, not what is best.

I do not sell floor products, but have used several and helped others do many, many more. I have done quite a bit of epoxy in other apps, and it requires a mechanical bond as well as a chemical bond, and that is what the correct primer and product hope to do for you.

The tenants of good epoxy life is to prep properly...that means:
grind the dry concrete
clean up the dry concrete
etch the concrete
apply the primer/epoxy PER the vendor of your choice.

To do it any other way, invites failure - either instantly or in a very short order. That means do NOT use a penetrating sealer or other such on any floor you want to epoxy. Do not reuse buckets used for mixing, do not adjust the ratio of mixing and be aware of the temperature and your product.

That also means to NOT use the primer from vendor A, with the part one mix from the box store with part two mix from some other vendor and expect these chemicals to work well together or at all. Stay with one vendor, unless he/she advises and WILL stand behind the suggested product added to the process.

IF you have a moisture issue settle it before you do anything else to the floor, as it will wreak havoc with ANY product you apply. The simplest way of testing is to lay a piece of plastic, 2'x2' on the floor or several spots on the floor if it is large. Wait 24 hours or so and lift the plastic, if the concrete looks different than that concrete not having been covered with plastic OR there is moisture on the underside of the plastic - You have a moisture problem. Settle it or fix it or resign yourself to it.

If your gutter clogs and the moisture is forced under the slab, it can and likely will come to the top and the covering - epoxy, paint, etc will be badly affected.

bests

 

[Antoddio]

your question begs a response that is in line with what you are wanting, not what is best.

I do not sell floor products, but have used several and helped others do many, many more. I have done quite a bit of epoxy in other apps, and it requires a mechanical bond as well as a chemical bond, and that is what the correct primer and product hope to do for you.

The tenants of good epoxy life is to prep properly...that means:
grind the dry concrete
clean up the dry concrete
etch the concrete
apply the primer/epoxy PER the vendor of your choice.

To do it any other way, invites failure - either instantly or in a very short order. That means do NOT use a penetrating sealer or other such on any floor you want to epoxy. Do not reuse buckets used for mixing, do not adjust the ratio of mixing and be aware of the temperature and your product.

That also means to NOT use the primer from vendor A, with the part one mix from the box store with part two mix from some other vendor and expect these chemicals to work well together or at all. Stay with one vendor, unless he/she advises and WILL stand behind the suggested product added to the process.

IF you have a moisture issue settle it before you do anything else to the floor, as it will wreak havoc with ANY product you apply. The simplest way of testing is to lay a piece of plastic, 2'x2' on the floor or several spots on the floor if it is large. Wait 24 hours or so and lift the plastic, if the concrete looks different than that concrete not having been covered with plastic OR there is moisture on the underside of the plastic - You have a moisture problem. Settle it or fix it or resign yourself to it.

If your gutter clogs and the moisture is forced under the slab, it can and likely will come to the top and the covering - epoxy, paint, etc will be badly affected.

bests

You wouldn't grind then etch. All I could see is that screwing something up. You can reuse buckets if you clean them out (not worth the time to me). Why would you adjust the ratio or be inclined to? Also are you talking about using part a from one vendor and b from another. Why would anyone do that?

If the gutter overflows, it will likely do nothing unless it's got some highly effective way of getting under the slab and getting trapped there, which is unlikely.

The guys issues will be the rustoleum rock solid kit. Minimum after priming you'll need 1 gallon of 100% solids epoxy for 120 square feet and something like a polyurethane topcoat of 1 gal per 300-400 square feet. Looks like those rustoleum kits have a little more than 1/2 gallon covering 200-300 square feet. I'm not running through the math but that's prob less than 25% of the minimum thickness of a decent system. At that coverage, your garage will look better if you did nothing.

 

[cash68]

You wouldn't grind then etch. All I could see is that screwing something up. You can reuse buckets if you clean them out (not worth the time to me). Why would you adjust the ratio or be inclined to? Also are you talking about using part a from one vendor and b from another. Why would anyone do that?

If the gutter overflows, it will likely do nothing unless it's got some highly effective way of getting under the slab and getting trapped there, which is unlikely.

The guys issues will be the rustoleum rock solid kit. Minimum after priming you'll need 1 gallon of 100% solids epoxy for 120 square feet and something like a polyurethane topcoat of 1 gal per 300-400 square feet. Looks like those rustoleum kits have a little more than 1/2 gallon covering 200-300 square feet. I'm not running through the math but that's prob less than 25% of the minimum thickness of a decent system. At that coverage, your garage will look better if you did nothing.

Yeah, I wasn't planning on etching after he grinds the top surface to open up the pores. Seems like etching is a good idea if you don't grind.

I'm not mixing things together, I was looking for advice on a moisture barrier coating. After talking to my floor guy, he feels pretty strongly that it isn't necessary since we are doing so much prep work, and the epoxy will have a lot to bite onto.

I have the following kit, but I have two of them:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Ole...ine-2-5-Car-Garage-Floor-Kit-286879/205697937

So converted, that is 1.18 gallons. I was not planning on using a primer after talking to my floor guy. What are the benefits of a primer on a freshly ground floor?

 

[Antoddio]

how many square feet is this?

 

[cash68]

450.

 

[Shea]

Have you checked the data sheets for the skim coat you are using? Some require that you wait a certain number of days before applying a coating.

Also, are you applying two color coats of the RockSolid? I ask because many people have had issues with poor color uniformity when only using one coat on a well prepped floor. RockSolid has a thin dry film thickness of approximately 3 mils. It also does a good job of penetrating into a well prepped substrate. As a result, when one coat is applied you can get very thin patches where the coating was absorbed by the concrete. What you end up with are large areas that look off color and dull. A second coat is needed to provide color uniformity and some thickness for these occasions. We've also discovered that their stated coverage rates are very optimistic. We recommend reducing those rates by 10 to 15%.

As a side note, we don't sell product. We did an article on RockSolid when it first came out which has over 300 comments and questions from readers. You can read it here. RockSolid is a decent DIY home improvement center type of kit for residential use only, that performs best on newer concrete that does not require repairs and other attention. When the concrete is not in good shape, people have had all kinds of cosmetic issues.

I'm only bringing this up because it seems you are putting a lot of work into repairing a prepping your floor, only to apply a coating that may or may not be up to the task.

 

[Antoddio]

2.5 gallons will not cover 450 square feet. If it were the right product that would be enough for a primer coat. I would not suggest you would have success with that product over your type of surface, or most any surface for that matter. Seen failures of that product so many times it's not funny.

This would be a minimum system that would be durable.
2 gallons primer ~50% solids
3-4 gallons 100% solids epoxy.
1.5 gals polyurethane (top coat) and adding aggregate is also very recommended.
Plus you will need plenty of patching material.

A primer (usually with a epoxy polyamide hardner- but this may not be obvious) will have great adhesion, flexibility and moisture resistance. Plus they will provide a smooth surface and seal in all the dust a **** in order to do your top coat. Skipping it is not recommended. There are plenty of coatings you can get on-line that will be far better, and cheaper apples to apples, than anything store bought.

Where in MKE are you? Looks like houses in my old neighborhood. I was on 85th street in Wauwatosa.

 

[cash68]

What type of Primer?

I'm in Slinger/West Bend area. Used to live in Tosa, crazy how much that place has blown up.

 

[Antoddio]

What type of Primer?

I'm in Slinger/West Bend area. Used to live in Tosa, crazy how much that place has blown up.

One that is epoxy based and somewhere in the nature of around 50% solids. Most of them will meet those criteria. It's thinner so it really penetrates the concrete and levels out well.

 

[cash68]

One that is epoxy based and somewhere in the nature of around 50% solids. Most of them will meet those criteria. It's thinner so it really penetrates the concrete and levels out well.

Can you give me an example? I'm googling 'epoxy primer' but not finding much that I think is appropriate.

 

[Antoddio]

There's an example of one...the other guys on this thread will sell a similar product very likely as well.

WB Primer

 

[cash68]

Thats just an epoxy floor system, not a primer.

 

[LB-1911]

There's an example of one...the other guys on this thread will sell a similar product very likely as well.

WB Primer

Thats just an epoxy floor system, not a primer.

From the link above

Under CATEGORIES select PRIMERS

PREPRIME 167 - PENETRATING EPOXY PRIMER (500 SQ/FT)

 

[cash68]

So I just got off the phone with RockSolid, and they are directing me to use "Moisture Stop Primer":

http://www.menards.com/main/paint/e...453084723-c-8022.htm?tid=-5124046633818990378

Apparently the product is called Moisture Stop, and it's labeled under rustoleum or rocksolid, but it's the exact same thing. She told me this was a penetrating primer and is compatible with the RockSolid floor coating system. She also said this would not negatively affect adhesion, which is not what some of you guys are saying.

Again, I haven't had moisture issues since I fixed the gutter, but I want to do this right.

 

[LB-1911]

Again, I haven't had moisture issues since I fixed the gutter, but I want to do this right.

Have you conducted a test as described below?

IF you have a moisture issue settle it before you do anything else to the floor, as it will wreak havoc with ANY product you apply.

The simplest way of testing is to lay a piece of plastic, 2'x2' on the floor or several spots on the floor if it is large.

Wait 24 hours or so and lift the plastic, if the concrete looks different than that concrete not having been covered with plastic OR there is moisture on the underside of the plastic - You have a moisture problem.

Settle it or fix it or resign yourself to it.

 

[Antoddio]

From the link above

Under CATEGORIES select PRIMERS

PREPRIME 167 - PENETRATING EPOXY PRIMER (500 SQ/FT)

Thats just an epoxy floor system, not a primer.

WB is def a primer. I use their coatings occasionally. It can be used as a basecoat, but they will even tell you its fairly weak at that, though easier to apply for a DIY person. I think the devoe 167 is a solvent product, never used it. Haven't used any of the devoe line.