Weatherproofing Nightmare (Barndo)

[Slimmons]

A couple of years ago, I decided to build a barndominium. I hired a company near me (Alabama) that had really good reviews, and specialized in metal buildings exclusively.
Fast forward to after the exterior was finished and everything looked great, except I was confused by how the windows were put in. I have never been around a lot of metal buildings, so there were a lot of unknowns for me. The builder told me that weatherproofing the outside of the windows was on me, and he didn't do that sort of thing. That was fine with me because I have a lot of experience caulking. The confusing part for me was the J-trim/channel. It looked like it stuck out further than I expected. I understand it really couldn't go in any further because of the ribs in the metal....but even then it was above the ribs more than I was expecting.

So....to the issue. This building leaks water around the J-trim like you would not believe. We haven't completed the inside of the building yet, thank goodness, but we had the spray foam put in (closed cell). The amount of water that comes in from around the windows is blowing my mind. The entire 60x40 slab is completely wet every time it rains.

It's not coming in from the bottom. I've tested everywhere thoroughly with a water hose, and it only comes in when I spray in the J trim around the windows. I've checked all of the screws around the windows, and they all have those rubber washers, and they are all tight.

I've tried so many things to fix this, and I haven't had any luck at all. Originally I thought maybe the trim was dumping water down the side, and it was sneaking in there. I taped all of it up as best I could, which didn't help. I then removed the tape, and siliconed very well around the sides, which didn't help. I then siliconed around all 4 sides of the j trim, which didn't help. Then I siliconed all 4 sides, and taped over them. At this point, I'm starting to think I'm going crazy. We have 20+ windows in this house, and 100% of them leak.

At this point, I'm not paying someone to take out every window, and weatherproof correctly. From the images below you can see that he didn't wrap the building before putting the siding up. The building does not leak anywhere except for around the windows. There has to be a way to weatherproof this leaky boat from the outside. Any advice is welcome.

 

[Slimmons]

As a side note. I have considered removing the metal panels around the windows and doing more weatherproofing myself, but I had spray foam put in, and from what I understand, it can be difficult/impossible to remove without damaging it. I don't know much about that though.

 

[nmk_61802]

Sorry for your troubles. I would have run the original builder off-site if he told me he wasn't responsible for water-proofing.

I'm not a metal building guy, but I would look at R & R buildings videos as a first step for how to address:

https://www.youtube.com/@RRBuildings

 

[Slimmons]

@nmk_61802 Yes, unfortunately I didn't think to ask the builder before he started if he did any weatherproofing.....it seems like that would be a pretty normal thing to do. I didn't find out this information until after he was nearly finished and I asked about it. I've watched a lot of RRBuildings videos, and while I like them, I haven't found any that really address what to do after the mistakes have been made. I've found the majority of them are "how to do it the right way".

 

[Zeke]

Nice looking building but the pics don't show much. What I do see in one pic is maybe the worst window installation I have ever seen. And I was in the window installation business. However, I have never installed windows in metal siding. I'd be glad to offer advice if you provide detailed pics of everything WRT to the windows.

Taking them all out is probably the way to go but I can understand the reluctance to do so. Working with what is there is not impossible. You have to think like a drop of water and not everyone can picture that. Key words are flashing and counter flashing. In theory caulking is not needed. But that's a hard sell these days as caulking can be pretty good stuff. The foundation of the waterproofing system has to be properly done before caulk. Caulk is the icing on the cake.

 

[jack stand]

Unfortunately, J channel is just something for the rain and wind to go around.
I don't see any way to seal it without some type of sheathing.... under the windows, siding and J. I am somewhat surprised that the spray foam didn't help out a lot. Is it open cell?
Typically a window is taped to the sheathing, then the J is installed and taped... to the sheathing and then there's a flashing over the top and the vertical J on either side of the windows and it is taped on to the sheathing also. Finally the top (horizontal) J above the flashing is installed and taped.... to the sheathing.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Check out some of the videos from RR Buildings on YouTube, they do post frame construction and have built a lot of barndominiums. This should be a link to some of their videos on installing and weatherproofing windows: https://www.youtube.com/@RRBuildings/search?query=windows

 

[My Old Tools]

Hard to believe a builder can get away with that. I'm on my 3rd metal building, all had windows, and only one leaked at all. My current building has 7 large windows and no leaks.

 

[Rusted Nut]

Contact the metal building material supplier; they should have the correct parts and pieces, and instructions for weather proofing around penetrations.

 

[Slimmons]

@Zeke Thanks, any help is appreciated. The closed cell foam actually helped a lot to lessen the leaking, but it didn't solve the problem. I wish I hadn't had the spray foam put in before I knew there was going to be really bad leaking. But, the spray foam people actually showed up early, pretty much the day after the building was complete.

I'm not sure what pictures you want, but please keep in mind on the pictures with caulk in them, I've been fighting this problem for several months, and have added more and more caulk. But the close up of the caulk shows the edge of the metal going up to the J-Trim is covering the area where I assumed water was going in. This did help, but water still gets in.

I sprayed some more this morning, and I'm actually pretty sure where the metal siding overlaps, there's water getting in there. I've done no caulking there, and you can't really even see the seem on the picture.

You talk about flashing and counter flashing, but I haven't seen any flashing I could put around these windows that would help (but I'm not a window guy, and I've not seen many products other than J-Trim. At this point, I'd be ok adding flashing around these windows. I don't even care what it looks like. I just need the water to stop coming in long enough for me to finish the inside of this house. Thanks again, and I appreciate any help.

 

[Slimmons]

@jack stand It's closed cell foam, and I'm assuming it helps a lot. Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to see the leaks before the spray foam was added.
I haven't tried removing the siding, because of the spray foam. But I wonder if I could peel the siding back enough around the windows, to add some sheathing.

 

[Slimmons]

In addition to the windows, when I lightly spray water on the siding where there's a joint (pictured below), the water goes behind the spray insulation, and into the house.
(not sure why, but none of my pictures are showing up any more)

 

[Zeke]

If you don't think like a drop of water think like a small insect. If you were an insect you could get inside a lot of places around that window. Just because there is J-flashing doesn't mean there aren't seams that water can find. Water wicks due to surface tension. It can go uphill a shot ways. It can travel horizontally quite far. Give water a nail to find and it will find it.

Doing that in place I think I'd fill in the space between the window flange and the siding for a start. I'm not there so I can't see what exactly to do but some bituthene strips might be considered.

 

[Slimmons]

This site won't let me upload any more pictures for some reason, but here's some more pictures in a google drive link.

Metal Siding

10 new items added to shared album

photos.app.goo.gl

 

[Old Moparz]

Many years ago I worked for a siding & window company. You'd be surprised by where water infiltrates at times & occasionally it's NOT from where it's obvious. Two things to also look into is the very top of the siding panel near the roof & also if the panels are not one, long, continuous piece of metal & has an overlap.

Water could be entering the top & traveling down the backside of the panel, then being diverted at the window to give the appearance that it where it's entering. I know you said you sprayed the J channel but it could be two issues combined.

The second thing is to see if the panels are overlapped incorrectly if they aren't continuous pieces. The upper panel should lay on top of the lower panel to shed the water. If it's reversed the water will enter. Same with the J channel. make sure the siding is tucked inside the J.

 

[ludakris04]

I do not have direct experience, but I have watched this couple build theirs and they have some detail on how they did it.

 

[Slimmons]

@Old Moparz Yes, I've worried about the roof. And this morning I did find that it's leaking through one of the overlaps. Any advice on how to resolve the overlap issues? I was eventually going to caulk between them, but getting the overlaps apart is proving difficult (possibly because of the spray foam attached to it).

 

[jack stand]

Leaks other than the windows? As much as I hate to say it, you might retain a lawyer. You're deep into this build (financially) and this leaking in the "fields" cannot be explained or excused from normal expectations from the installer or suppliers where there may be for the windows as far as whose responsible for what. (wiggle room equals more lawyer hours)
Good luck with this.

 

[jack stand]

^^^^ double check all your paperwork for language specifically advising against spray foam insulation before you really start rocking the boat and speeding lawyer money.
I've never heard of this causing any trouble other than possible future difficulty or repairing/replacing a damaged panel.

 

[kj_mustang]

The windows should have had a flange that is attached to the wood framing and then the metal siding overlaps that flange. See my picture below. I had one window that tried to leak when a driving wind forced it in. I had to silicone caulk along the top edge where the metal siding contacted the window.

 

[Joemctag]

The roof panels are going to have”tape seal” applied to both side laps ( unless it’s standing seam ) and end laps , which you’re talking about. In summer, it’ll be like a 1” wide strip of chewing gum, and you’d have to slowly peel the whole sheet away , starting at one side after you take off whatever trim at the top end. Not saying you need todo that. Hopefully, it’s just some leaking screws there. It’s your standard 1:12 slope metal roof, I’m guessing.
About the windows, just know that there’s no step called weatherproofing that is done after a building is up. Things have to be done right at various stages including the planning and design. Sounds like the erector told you wrong.
Rusted nut’s advice is good. You’ll be lucky if you can fix it by taking all the windows out. Windows and their siding is better because then you can verify leaks after it’s all put back right.
Yes, I know it’s foamed and the gutters are probably on so you can’t get to the top row of screws.
Maybe you can scrape off foam in a lot of small,

suspected areas, starting high up , to see how the water is running. If you just find out how to do the windows properly and do so, what if it’s the wall panels, like Moparz suggests? Even if you put caulk everywhere , which is wrong, are you going to tear it all out and re-do it all every15 years or whenever you see water on the floor in the future.
The bright side is that it looks like you have large areas with no windows.

 

[Old Moparz]

@Old Moparz Yes, I've worried about the roof. And this morning I did find that it's leaking through one of the overlaps. Any advice on how to resolve the overlap issues? I was eventually going to caulk between them, but getting the overlaps apart is proving difficult (possibly because of the spray foam attached to it).

I've never worked on a building like yours so I am not sure how to address the issues & don't want to suggest something that may be incorrect. If overlap of panels is what you are referring to, then it's definitely an installation issue that your builder needs to resolve. Calking is only going to be an incorrect & temporary fix & it will leak again.

Hate to say it but you are probably going to need to start removing the spray foam insulation to get to the water source & correct it.

 

[Zeke]

I agree with @Joemctag but I did do mainly retrofit windows. There are ways.

To the OP, the new pics still tell me very little. Perhaps a sketch of the window, siding, framing details as you understand them. The are ways to slip new flashing under existing surfaces. That existing window flush frame style flange is totally wrong for this install.
I'd consider cutting it off, but that's not easy. Ask me how I know.

And, BTW, the "flush fin" does add strength. That's why I was thinking blocking behind. Too detailed to go into here. This is a toughie.

Here is another installation identical you yours and yes he is complaining of leaks. Again, wrong fin.

 

[Zeke]

I agree with @Joemctag but I did do mainly retrofit windows. There are ways.

To the OP, the new pics still tell me very little. Perhaps a sketch of the window, siding, framing details as you understand them. The are ways to slip new flashing under existing surfaces. That existing window flush frame style flange is totally wrong for this install.
I'd consider cutting it off, but that's not easy. Ask me how I know.

And, BTW, the "flush fin" does add strength. That's why I was thinking blocking behind. Too detailed to go into here. This is a toughie.

Here is another installation identical you yours and yes he is complaining of leaks. Again, wrong fin.

Oh, wait, that IS your window. Silly me. Found it on Stack Exchange. sorry, duplicate post and no way to delete.

Looking at the left pic, you can make something like that for the top. I'd do the sides as well.

 

[kinglake]

I am pretty sure those are windows with integral J channel and are supplied by the building manufacturer as part of the kit. There will be a internal fin that is screwed to the metal window framing and then the metal siding is hung around the window.

If you notice the top corner of the window shown in the picture, it appears the installer bent down the piece of the J channel that would otherwise shed water away from the sides of the window.

Window flashing tape around applied to the metal siding and window edge on the sides, then the top would/should keep water out if indeed the windows have integral J channels.

 

[Slimmons]

@Zeke Yes, that is my original post. I started worrying about this a while back, and my concerns turned out to be valid. So, if I was to go with the solution you posted, would I remove the J-trim, or cut it if I can't remove it property...and then find some kind of trim I can connect directly to the window? Or, if I can't connect directly to it, at least overlap with lots of sealing/waterproofing?

 

[Slimmons]

@kinglake You may be correct. I will try to peel back some of the siding, and look at exactly how the J channel was installed. I'll upload pics here whenever I can.

 

[nadogail]

Water follows the path of least resistance, except when it doesn’t. It has been known to wick and creep. Good luck in your search for the fix for your leak.

 

[dougf]

Sacrifice a window. Cut away the spray foam around the most easily accessed window and see what is and isnt there as far as flashing. It will give you a good idea on how to approach the rest of the windows. Sorry you are having this problem, it is a bummer but you can recover with a little investigation and research on the correct approach.

 

[Zeke]

@Slimmons, the fin at the outside face of the window is normally pressed against a flat exterior surface. It is a typical retrofit window that most of us installers do not like. Usually the fin is more at the center of the frame, or set back an inch for stucco, etc. That works with siding too. Flashing would extend to the outside surface of the frame and tip down a little providing a drip edge. Flashing overlaps all of the window fin except the bottom where the window sits on the flashing.

Now you have a gap back to the siding and the siding isn't flat, but with ribs. Not having experience with metal siding with ribs is where I have a disadvantage. But I'm also a GC so I've had lots of flashing situations and all I can tell you is that any flashing assembly goes on like a roof — you start at the bottom and work up overlapping each shingle, tile, flashing, etc. Nothing should be trapped in front of something else.

That fin out in the air doesn't belong there. As I said, I would cut it off or build up behind it which will be difficult to fill because of the ribs. I could do this if I was there and I had to. I wouldn't want to have to because this is the wrong window and apparently installed incorrectly.

Most window manufacturers have architectural sheets for downloading. Find your drawing and follow the steps to see how this should have been done. The folks here that say do this and do that are not wrong. But if you can't get the contractor to do this right, then you'll have to work it out on your own or with the help of someone who knows and understands how the different styles of frames install in all kinds of wall conditions. There are drawings for masonry, stucco and siding.

My conclusion for if this was my building would be to remove all the windows and get the correct window frame for your building. If that is not going to happen then some fancy work is going to be needed. I have seen this happen where new windows were yanked out and the right window installed in their place. No one likes to see things have to be that way.

Actually all the glazing can be saved and moved over to new frames. This is a major job.

It is what it is.

 

[kinglake]

@Slimmons, the fin at the outside face of the window is normally pressed against a flat exterior surface. It is a typical retrofit window that most of us installers do not like. Usually the fin is more at the center of the frame, or set back an inch for stucco, etc. That works with siding too. Flashing would extend to the outside surface of the frame and tip down a little providing a drip edge. Flashing overlaps all of the window fin except the bottom where the window sits on the flashing.

Those are not retrofit windows for sure. What you are calling the the fin is not a fin. It is the external J channel. Whether they have an internal fin is yet to be determined.

 

[Zeke]

Those are not retrofit windows for sure. What you are calling the the fin is not a fin. It is the external J channel. Whether they have an internal fin is yet to be determined.

Whatever. I asked for pics and I've yet to see the details. So if it walks like a duck....

I've personally with my own 2 arms installed 5000 windows. Over 25 years that divides up to a very reasonable number per month. If you got this better than I do, take it.

But I have to ask you, who the **** installs a J-channel edge up? Or is that a U-channel? Whatever is sticking up in the air if ******* wrong.

Out.

 

[Bert_]

But I have to ask you, who the **** installs a J-channel edge up? Or is that a U-channel? Whatever is sticking up in the air if ******* wrong.

Out.

Everybody does it. And they manage to keep (most) of the water out.

I do agree that it's a terrible design. A drip edge over the window would be so much better. With tin if you do that then you see that cut edge that is usually far from perfect.

 

[Zeke]

Everybody does what, Bert? Install J-metal backwards with the tall leg facing away from the wall?

No, I should have stayed out. You're smarter than that. It's just forum communications. Too bad for the OP because he's the one with the mess. I won't make it worse.

 

[Bert_]

Everybody does what, Bert? Install J-metal backwards with the tall leg facing away from the wall?

No, I should have stayed out. You're smarter than that. It's just forum communications. Too bad for the OP because he's the one with the mess. I won't make it worse.

I'm not sure I follow you. I don't see any j channel install backwards? I just meant that j channel around all four sides of a window is normal practice. I've never liked it for water shedding

 

[Kpaige]

Ok so he does not do weather proofing????? So he does not know what he is doing then as any builder weather proofs their installs….. it is a very common thing to have windows etc in metal buildings so he should know how to properly install them.
Pictures are not very clear but I can tell you they are not detailed correctly at all. J channel is only there to give a finished look to the cut siding it is not repeat not a water tighting element. It has some properties of diverting but that’s it. The true water proofing is done first.

 

[Kpaige]

Everybody does it. And they manage to keep (most) of the water out.

I do agree that it's a terrible design. A drip edge over the window would be so much better. With tin if you do that then you see that cut edge that is usually far from perfect.

It should have a drip edge/z style flashing under the j channel doing the actual water diverting

 

[kinglake]

The windows are often marketed as "self flashing/self trimming" windows specifically for metal buildings. Just about every garage and metal building supplier sells them.

 

[Zeke]

I'm not sure I follow you. I don't see any j channel install backwards? I just meant that j channel around all four sides of a window is normal practice. I've never liked it for water shedding

Just for you, Bert, because you have helped me out before (thanks). The outermost fin, flush with the window frame front face, is sticking up, out and down. I'm not talking about anything under the metal siding as I can't see anything but a window frame stuck into an opening in the metal siding.

If I was totally wrong about everything said up to this point, the top of the window acts as a ledge for nests of god-knows-what. It will collect dirt and then water. Anyone can have whatever they see fit. I know what a call back looks like and I hated them. So I worked hard so as to not have to do call backs. The few call backs that I did have were 90% flush fin retro windows slapped on into an existing opening. I didn't like them then and I don't like them now. I specifically tailored my advertising to not reach tracts of stucco homes with AL windows that were allowed by the local AHD to have a new window pasted to the side of the building.

That bronze window pictured here is exactly what is sold in CA for that purpose.

IN MY OPINION ONLY: no one should have a sharp metal fin sticking out of anything. This is the vinyl equivalent of that window:



This is the window I would have used. No external fin:



Again, a vinyl window shown as an example. After prepping the RO with flashing membrane behind that flange, I would have attached the window and added a Z-flashing above and then covered both sides and then the top with more flashing. I would have brought the moisture barrier over on top of that staggered from bottom to top. That is essentially 3 layers of waterproofing.

Metal edging trim is optional after that, but has to be done in a way so as to not send water towards the window, but divert away. Even board trim is OK but again the top board would have Z flashing. Where I don't have that much experience is having to deal with ribs. I know no building I ever would build would have anything including a light fixture sitting on top of ribs. Everything would be let in and flashed.

So that's just my opinion that worked well enough for 25 years that the majority of my business was referral.

 

[Sumboodie]

I do not have direct experience, but I have watched this couple build theirs and they have some detail on how they did it.

I certainly wouldn't use them as an expert source.