Weird or Wired problem w/ reversed hot

[Zeke]

Yeah, it's weird. I was installing a dimmer in a switched box. This is not the switch box, it is switched up the line. Only two wires into the box. Apparently the rigid conduit is being used as the ground for now.

So here's the weirdness: I plugged in a light, made sure the switch was in the 'off' position and proceeded when I got bit. So, I checked with my touchless and there was a hot somewhere. (Now before you go and tell me, yeah, I slipped and didn't do my due diligence which is a reminder to all, always test, test, test.)

I carefully rigged up a temporary receptacle and plugged in my 3 light tester. I grounded the recep to the box. With the switch off, I showed hot/neutral rev.

With the switch on I showed hot/ground rev. So I got out my Wiggy and did more. Sure enough, neutral to ground lit up in "off" switch position and hot to ground in the "on" position.

OK, sorry this is long and I know the dimmer acts as a switch itself. In this case we just wanted a dimmer for one of the lights on that switched circuit and the others at full bright. So the dimmer was going to be set and left alone while the circuit it is on would remain switched from another location. No other way to place a dimmer as the device is a chandelier and the switch leg is in a j-box that I can use for this dimmer. The other lights will be pigtailed to the line side.

I didn't have time to go any further so I closed everything up and left the job as I found it and the lights all still work. Obviously I'm going to get this straighten out ASAP.

You want even more weird? I did put my Wiggy on the switch lugs and guess what? No power across the lugs from line to switched when on. But I had power at the switched side when the switch was in the "off" position. So I came home baffled.

Summary of switching: Off, I have power between white and green. On, I have power between black and green. No other combos work; no power to white while "on". Conduit is the same as 'green'.

WTF?

 

[shawhite]

I have seen the white/neut hot to the switch before it is usually when there is a 3 way switch at the other end of the circuit.

 

[Zeke]

I meant to address that. The switch in question is a stack switch and definitely single pole. I wonder if the wires are on the wrong sides and the line side hot tab is still there. Didn't get that far.

 

[shawhite]

Kind of sounds like supply goes to the box in the ceiling(light fixture) then they used the white as the hot to the switch then black comes back up and feeds the fixtures.

 

[CADPoint]

You didn't mention if the dimmer had a neutral?
Beside with 2008 your required to bring a neutral down to the switch!
You have an avaiable racway.
Not that this mattered to what you found!

Light circuits mean multilpy places to switch up the circuits, if it wired power
to the light!

If it's the same circuit for lights and receptacles per room a worse situation.

Power the switch, is the way I like to roll!

 

[Zeke]

You didn't mention if the dimmer had a neutral?
Beside with 2008 your required to bring a neutral down to the switch!
You have an avaiable racway.
Not that this mattered to what you found!

Light circuits mean multilpy places to switch up the circuits, if it wired power
to the light!

If it's the same circuit for lights and receptacles per room a worse situation.

Power the switch, is the way I like to roll!

The power is to the switch. No outlets on this circuit. Remember I said only 2 wires at the light. They are black and white and the rigid conduit is the ground. The dimmer has two black leads and a ground which I tied directly to the grounded box. But I didn't get as far as getting it installed.

Read the question: why is the switch alternately flipping power to the white or the black?

I know why I can make a circuit to the ground, it's a ground. At the light box the white is not a neutral. There is no reason this would be a 3-way and there's not enough wires to make it one.

When I was using the Wiggy on the stack switch there were four lugs, that's it.

 

[Mustang51js]

Dimmers won't cut all the power off, even in the off position current still flows through them. Sometimes a pen tester won't pick up the voltage but still enough to hit you. Get a voltage tester and check how many volts your getting,it could be up to 40 depending on the dimmer. Also check to see if a neutral is loose in the switch box or feed.

 

[C96]

Zeke please post a wire diagram of what you have. Show all boxes with the wires in them color coded etc. Then explain what you’re trying to achieve.

Post pictures too, hell this cant be that complicated.

One problem I believe is the language you’re using to explain the issue. Its hard to follow along and a bit confusing.

 

[mm08822]

Sounds like the neutral is being switched. As c96 suggested, post pics or make a wiring diagram so we can follow better.

 

[Zeke]

Zeke please post a wire diagram of what you have. Show all boxes with the wires in them color coded etc. Then explain what you’re trying to achieve.

Post pictures too, hell this cant be that complicated.

One problem I believe is the language you’re using to explain the issue. Its hard to follow along and a bit confusing.

Any particular words or phrases that are not understandable? I will take some pics when I pull the switch out of the box.

 

[justsam]

Could you be getting fooled by power that is passing through the load? I am assuming the load is incandescent bulb(s) which just look like a low value resistor when off. You will get bit at a switch leg if the switch is OFF. When ON of course the switch is a short.
It may help in your trouble shooting if you unscrew the bulbs to provide an open load.

 

[Zeke]

justam, appreciate the thoughts, any thoughts will help me troubleshoot this. Yes, everything was removed AFA 'load' that I know of. I will get back over there and pull out the switch(es). Yes, it's plural. the problem may be the fact that the switch controlling these lights is a stack switch in a 4" box with another stack switch. It's pretty full and I suspect some short wires.

I just wanted to see if I could find out from someone who has seen a situation where one or the other of the hot and neutral go hot depending on the switch position. Personally I've never seen this unless they are travelers. If they were travelers then the conduit is the neutral. But, this is the end of the circuit with only 2 wires to the fixture so we can rule that out.

I've been wiring for a long time but this is not my primary trade. I'll call in an electrician when I need to. Thing is, not all electricians are necessarily better informed and smarter than I. I see a lot of mistakes out in the field. I'm working with one now.

I know the codes pretty well and have the books with the interpretations. One was generously sent to me by Charles on this forum.

 

[Mustang51js]

Sounds like it might be switched neutral and when switch is off it's showing power. Hard to tell without looking at it,best thing to do is post up a pic or two with everything open and what your reading to what.

 

[CADPoint]

The power is to the switch. No outlets on this circuit. Remember I said only 2 wires at the light. They are black and white and the rigid conduit is the ground. The dimmer has two black leads and a ground which I tied directly to the grounded box. But I didn't get as far as getting it installed.

I know why I can make a circuit to the ground, it's a ground. At the light box the white is not a neutral. There is no reason this would be a 3-way and there's not enough wires to make it one.*@#$

.

JMO

You have whats called a California three way or a Chicago three way.
You can find it by using Google, image, diagram, (insert) three way.

In this case your white is not a neutral it's a traveler (that could be hot-depending on another up line switch) and someone used the galvanized pipe as a neutral and not a ground, IE....

With the switch on I showed hot/ground rev. So I got out my Wiggy and did more. Sure enough, neutral to ground lit up in "off" switch position and hot to ground in the "on" position.

While it might not be true California or Chicago three way it certainly is a modified one.

You have to clear all joints of this circuit back back to panel. This three way or type of wiring is illegal. The base line is electrically one is to switch the hot not the neutral, thus your odd and unexpected responses.

 

[C96]

Well, at least it’s a conduit system. Therefore you can re-pull the wiring to suit your needs. This would most likely be the best way to properly reconfigure the system without wasting time trying to figure out what some hack did 50+ years ago.

Good Luck!

Oh, by the way, still laughing at the James-W quote

 

[Zeke]

I'm due back at the job tomorrow. I'll report back with the good news or not-so-good news. I'm going to start with pulling the switches out and tracing what does what and goes to what. I'm taking some spare stack switches in case.

Strange as it may seem, I worked all day today with another electrician on another project that needed 2 persons. I'm beat to ****. Anyone that thinks electrical work is a walk in the park hasn't done any. I'm 68 and he's 30 something. You can figure the rest. At least he crawled under the house while I did the topside.

 

[Norcal]

You didn't mention if the dimmer had a neutral?
Beside with 2008 your required to bring a neutral down to the switch!
You have an avaiable racway.
Not that this mattered to what you found!

Light circuits mean multilpy places to switch up the circuits, if it wired power
to the light!

If it's the same circuit for lights and receptacles per room a worse situation.

Power the switch, is the way I like to roll!

Not required with conduit....

 

[Zeke]

Well, I got stumped. The black supposed-to-be-hot and connected to the RS lugs on all 4 switches is definitely dead. The wires to the switched sides are red, orange, blue and yellow. The red is a constant hot and energizes the black loop when switched to "on."

With all the wires loose to test the red shows 119v and the orange and blue show 80v. The last one is dead when loose. Very strange reverse feed to the switches. The homeowner didn't know anything was wrong because the neutrals are hot when the switches are off and the black makes a circuit when the switches are on. So as I said before, at the light box, it's N to G hot in the off position and N to B when "on." To the casual observer nothing wrong because the lights burn, a circuit is formed by the switch, just not the way it should.

It's bassackwards for sure and the mix up is in some box I couldn't find. No surprise that the homeowner became frustrated as I searched the unlabled panel to find the breaker and then used a circuit tracer to try and locate the original feed from the breaker at the other side of the house, or mansion if you will. I was told to put it back they way it was. I informed them that the danger of shock with the threaded part of any lamp socket being hot when they think the power to the lights is off is extremely dangerous.

It all started with me trying to install a dimmer on one of the switched branches. Wired correctly, the dimmer would have been on the neutral side given the mixup.

BTW, the house was built in 1926 and the feed I was looking for is cloth wire presumably on a knob and tube system that has been improperly tied into somewhere ahead of the box I found and surveyed. I think that's it for me AFA troubleshooting even though I find it challenging and interesting.

But it's no longer fun when confidence is lost and ignorance is king.

 

[Mustang51js]

I would just put it back the way it was if that's what he wants. Only way to fix it right is nut the neutrals and hook it up the opposite way,like it's suppose to be. Do you know which wires are the neutrals or is the pipe being used as a neutral. Worse case is you would have to swap over the wires on everything on that circuit.

 

[Zeke]

I would just put it back the way it was if that's what he wants. Only way to fix it right is nut the neutrals and hook it up the opposite way,like it's suppose to be. Do you know which wires are the neutrals or is the pipe being used as a neutral. Worse case is you would have to swap over the wires on everything on that circuit.

I don't want to say that the switch(es) are being backfed because that's not quite what I understand backfed to mean. However, the power is on the wrong side of the switch. One of the legs is constant hot while the looped blacks that were wired to the line side of the switch are dead. If I throw the switch where the hot red is connected, it energizes the black loop and therefore all the switches.

Why do I say that there is a line side to each stack switch device? Because of the common lugs on the right v. the separate switched lugs on the left. I checked the switches individually with the Ohm meter when the power was off.

I'm pretty sure there's a mix up before this box. You know how you run a leg down from a light box where the power is? Connect the hot to the white of a 2 wire cable and run the black back to the light box. Well, someone didn't tape a white black somewhere or something like that. Next guy comes along and gets it wrong.

I know why it works as is. It just is unsafe that a circuit can be made at the light sockets when the switch is off. (I'm getting tired of typing the same thing over and over.) The owner can be changing a lamp with the fixture hanging, grab some of the rim of the socket and die. It's hot. The screw threads are constantly hot regardless of the switch position. The light works because when the switch is closed, the black carries the current fed through the filament back to the box. The potential of the thread part of the socket to ground is always present.

It's freakin' dangerous. They no nothing and aren't concerned. I am.

 

[Mustang51js]

You keep typing the same thing over because your wording is hard to understand and picture it in my head lol. Are these all single pole switches. Is there a neutral in the switch box. Only thing I can think of is unhook the wires,and touch one by one to the red and see what goes on. Then hook the red power to the common side of the switches and hook the others back up the right way. Worse case is you trip a breaker if one of them is the neutral. It almost sounds like you have one set of wires switched with no neutral in the box and then another set with a neutral if I'm following correctly. The way you first explained the switches it seems like you need to turn one switch on to have the other switches work. And if your concerned about the threads in the light being hot then just reverse the wires in the light.

 

[Zeke]

Sorry you have trouble with my wording. Anytime you want to insert the correct words, please do. I figured everyone would know what B to G means in this context.

 

[Mustang51js]

It's not the words you were using,it was trying to picture what your saying in my head. Seems like you have two options,try and find the buried j-box and fix or leave it as is and swap wires in light so socket threads are hot only when switch is on. To me it seems there is a loose neutral or it's a old 3 way setup that was rigged up. Have you tried seeing if the other lights are same when the switch is on or just that particular light.

 

[Zeke]

All lights on that switch. I was isolating one of them to add the dimmer. The switch leg jumps from box to box to light up 3 lights in 3 boxes total. I was putting the dimmer in line with one of the lights. I added a remodel box for the purpose and interrupted that leg to install the dimmer. As I've said, when the lights were out I got bit by the neutral when I happened to touch the grounded box.

Finding the box where the mix up is will be the answer but the customer doesn't want to do through with me taking several boxes apart looking for the problem. So, I backed away and suggested they seek a second opinion on the danger.

I'm sorry I touched the thing because they probably think I was the one that caused the problem. Of course if I caused it, I could fix it.

Mustang, one last try to put a picture in your head: 5 wires enter the box in a conduit. The box shows ground. The switches are stack toggle switches, 4 in total in a 2 gang box. The wires are one by one, black, red blue, yellow and orange. The black is pigtailed to the right side of both of the devices.

I think you're with me so far. Each of the colored wires are connected to the separate 4 lugs on the switched side of the devices. They have been checked for proper function.

With the breaker on the black s dead and the red is 120v. 2 of the other colored wires show 80v and the 4th is dead. This is what is in the switch box, 5 wires, no whites, no bare and no green. That's all clear enough now isn't it?

What's going on at the fixtures is a result of the red wire energizing the black pigtail going through the one switch where the red is connected.

I won't try to go any further until you tell me you can see the 5 wires and how they are wired up. A graph won't show anything more than what I've said. It would just be 4 separate and different colored wires on the 4 available lugs that are on the switched side of the devices. The black would be shown connected with jumpers to all the available lugs on the line side of the switches.

Most stack switches have the line side marked and have a break-away hot tab. The black is on the line side and it's dead.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The only way to fix this correctly is to tear every j box in the circuit apart, map and trace the wires and redo the circuit correctly. Ive run into messes like this before and ive wasted lots of time trying to figure out how its wired. Better to look for all junctions in the circuit and start over.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Apparently the rigid conduit is being used as the ground for now.

This is, or it least WAS, acceptable in some areas.

If you run a green wire and it never connects to the conduit, you have an "isolated" ground. For applications where isolated grounds are required, you must use the special orange isolated ground receptacles.

 

[Mustang51js]

Have you tried to switch the black and the red on the switches, maybe they thought the black was the constant 120v but it's really the red. But it does seem like your neutrals to the lights are buried in a box somewhere. If you disconnect the hot from the switches do you still have power on the neutral in the light or is the neutral just powered when the switches are connected and not in the on position.

 

[Zeke]

Have you tried to switch the black and the red on the switches, maybe they thought the black was the constant 120v but it's really the red. But it does seem like your neutrals to the lights are buried in a box somewhere. If you disconnect the hot from the switches do you still have power on the neutral in the light or is the neutral just powered when the switches are connected and not in the on position.

Ah, now that's a good question. But since I can flip the completed circuit at the switch from black to ground, I'm still thinking the reverse wiring to the switch is the problem and that the black wasn't tied to a constant hot somewhere.

But you're on to something because the outside of the sockets are always hot. Need to find out why that is and how it gets there. Since the white neutral which is the hot member at the light boxes does not appear in the switch box I am beginning to see the light, if you will.

 

[Zeke]

The only way to fix this correctly is to tear every j box in the circuit apart, map and trace the wires and redo the circuit correctly. Ive run into messes like this before and ive wasted lots of time trying to figure out how its wired. Better to look for all junctions in the circuit and start over.

I agree. The owner doesn't. I would do this just to see how it gets solved. But now I see how frustrating troubleshooting sometimes is (always is) and every time I do I wish I hadn't. Last time I found a romex that had been stabbed by a nail and kissed the chicken wire lath. It was intermittent but enough to make an exit light inoperable. I was on that for 6 hours. 6 hours for a nail which was inside the wall. It took me another 6 hours to patch up the exploratory holes.

I'd rather just do CAT5 or something. (Maybe not, there might be problems there that I don't know about.)

You know, it's the thrill of the chase.

Hey guys, I typed a fairly terse post last night after a couple glasses of wine. I was frustrated. I deleted it. I really do appreciate this forum and attempts at solving the more difficult issues. I've learned more here than any book. Thanks.

Now where is Aceman, Norcal and Charles? Smart enough to not touch this one? Don't blame you.

 

[laser3kw]

Hey guys, I typed a fairly terse post last night after a couple glasses of wine

-internetting under the influence can be embrassing.

 

[Zeke]

-internetting under the influence can be embrassing.

I'm not embarrassed but I WAS frustrated. So I ranted and then saw that rants don't help much. I was being unappreciative when in fact I am. On another forum I have well over 29,000 posts. In the last year I started ranting a lot and then realized that I was simply frustrated with where I had gone over there, namely to the OT section.

When you find yourself 99% in OT it's time to leave which I did. So, I got a little off topic here and deleted it. I want to talk about electricity and wiring here.

BTW, after reading Mustang's comments I think I know exactly what's wrong and with the right testing equipment I could go right to it. I have this but I don't think it's enough.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I agree. The owner doesn't. I would do this just to see how it gets solved. But now I see how frustrating troubleshooting sometimes is (always is) and every time I do I wish I hadn't. Last time I found a romex that had been stabbed by a nail and kissed the chicken wire lath. It was intermittent but enough to make an exit light inoperable. I was on that for 6 hours. 6 hours for a nail which was inside the wall. It took me another 6 hours to patch up the exploratory holes.

I'd rather just do CAT5 or something. (Maybe not, there might be problems there that I don't know about.)

You know, it's the thrill of the chase.

Hey guys, I typed a fairly terse post last night after a couple glasses of wine. I was frustrated. I deleted it. I really do appreciate this forum and attempts at solving the more difficult issues. I've learned more here than any book. Thanks.

Now where is Aceman, Norcal and Charles? Smart enough to not touch this one? Don't blame you.

Ive had a frustrating problem like that. Lived in a house with knob and tube but the oulets were 3 prong(assholes). I started grounding outlets so my surge supressirs and appliances were grounded. One day i was drilling a hole through the wall for CATV and my drill arced between a siding nail and the lath in the plaster. I was blown away(figuratively). I discovered that the lath in the walls was live. I would occasionaly have breakers tripping, which i would reset with no retrips. I spent the next 6 months bugging the ******* landlord to fix it, which he didnt. One day, there was loud popping and sparks flying out of an outlet faceplate. I opened it up and discovered some ***** had snagged the lath on te hot side of the outlet. From the looks of it, the arcing had been goin on for awhile because the back of the faceplate and j box was completely blackened.

As far as CAT5, thats usually not as frustrating to troubleshoot! I do it everyday at work.

I remember a troubleshooting call I had one time where some outlets, microwave and cooktop in a house werent working. I plugged in my tester when I got there and it lit. Thought that was ofd so i grabbe my MM and discovered i had only about 80-90v. WTH? Checked the panel and it was good. Checked every outlet and nothing wired wrong. So i removed every neutral and ground from the panel and turned the power back on, still had 90v. I knew why(something wired in series and the devices resistance was causing the voltage drop), but i couldnt find it. Attic was blocked off, and this was a home warranty insurance call with a set payment amount. The home had just been purchased. I never found the issue and insurance didnt want to pay anymore...my boss, a 30yr union electrician was even stumped!

And I think Norcal, Aceman, etc. usually only comment on the theory questions because complicated troubleshooting stuff like this is hard to figure out on a forum!

Good luck to u. Always fun to try and figure out someone's half ***, jury rigged ignorant electrical wiring with a customer breathing down your neck!

 

[Zeke]

Good story Wylie. Yeah, hot lath and tying into it pretty much takes the cake.

 

[VHF]

Is the switch installed on the neutral line instead of the hot? Wouldn't surprise me at all for a house built in 1926. Either way works as far as breaking the circuit and turning off the light, and I think that would give the results you were reporting in the original post.

With the switch off would measure voltage on the neutral (current traveling from the hot, through the light bulbs, and back up the neutral to the fixture side of the switch. With the switch on the circuit is completed the neutral conductor is pulled down to zero potential (it is now a grounded conductor.)

 

[C96]

Hey guys, I typed a fairly terse post last night after a couple glasses of wine. I was frustrated. I deleted it.

-internetting under the influence can be embrassing.

Lol, I think many posts have been made while under the influence.

Hell, I enjoy having a couple beers unwinding with the GJ, great place to visit while relaxing.

 

[Zeke]

Is the switch installed on the neutral line instead of the hot? Wouldn't surprise me at all for a house built in 1926. Either way works as far as breaking the circuit and turning off the light, and I think that would give the results you were reporting in the original post.

With the switch off would measure voltage on the neutral (current traveling from the hot, through the light bulbs, and back up the neutral to the fixture side of the switch. With the switch on the circuit is completed the neutral conductor is pulled down to zero potential (it is now a grounded conductor.)

Trying to follow this. ^^^

The white is hot all the time regardless at the fixture box. There is no white at the switch box. There is what should be a switched leg that is always hot at the switch box and it's on the switched side (not the line side) of the stacked double switch.

The reason the filament burns in the "on" position is that the current run through the lamp to the tab which makes continuity. When "off' the circuit is made by metering the white in the fixture box to the ground or the box itself. The reason there is not a short is that the whole circuit is fed by a 2 wire non grounded cable. So the white and green are really isolated rather than on the buss at the panel.

My only fear is that someone will touch the rim of the socket while making a potential (that didn't sound right) by touching something that goes to ground all the while thinking the sockets are off as I did. Wylie is right, take it apart.