Weird Outlet Issue.....

[robertwhite]

So in my barn I have two separate home runs (12/2 w/ground) for water tank heaters (cows). Been using the setup for several winters.

20 amp breakers, heaters pull about 17amp each, separate GFCI at the tank end up about 8-9 foot from ground.

Usually, I only run 1 heater to save power unless I know it will be way below freezing. I just step up on the tank and push the GFCI button to kill the circuit instead of going to the panel, hitting the breaker, etc.

Simple enough, right?

So............ I go to reset the GFCI and it will not click, try a couple times, nothing. Go to panel side and play with breaker, retry GFCI, nothing. Pull GFCI off, put a ringer on power side of wires, ringer goes off, so I have power.

Change out GFCI, retry, nothing. Does exactly the same thing old one did.

Change out breaker, GFCI still won't click on. The little orange light on GFCI is lit, and if I push the button and hold it in, the light goes out, telling me power is there.

WTF?

* I have not tried either GFCI on another wire, but the 2nd one was brand new, so odds are it is good)

 

[G_P]

So the new GFCI is tripping and will only work if you hold down the reset button?

If so, its doing its job. You have a ground fault somewhere.

 

[LXCam]

Sounds like you lost the neutral. Remove the gfi, test from hot to neutral, then from hot to ground. If there is any variance, you have a bad connection somewhere.

 

[dw1]

Do the heaters plug into GFI outlet? or are they wired to the load side of GFI outlet? (Hardwired) Unplug heater and see if circuit resets or disconnect load side wiring to heater and see if it resets. I know you said you replaced one GFI, you have to have the "Line" power in to line side on GFI, if GFI is wired backwards, it wont work, back in the old days, you could wire them backwards and the gfi would work, but not trip

 

[robertwhite]

So the new GFCI is tripping and will only work if you hold down the reset button?

If so, its doing its job. You have a ground fault somewhere.

GFCI is not tripping, it won't click "on" when I push the power button to turn the outlet "on". I guess technically, it is tripping.

Sounds like you lost the neutral. Remove the gfi, test from hot to neutral, then from hot to ground. If there is any variance, you have a bad connection somewhere.

Test with meter?

The wire that is not working actually goes from panel to a junction box in the barn and then new wire out to GFCI. The old wire was an unused circuit that was in the barn so I used it instead of running a 75 ft of all new wire.

 

[robertwhite]

Do the heaters plug into GFI outlet? or are they wired to the load side of GFI outlet? (Hardwired) Unplug heater and see if circuit resets or disconnect load side wiring to heater and see if it resets. I know you said you replaced one GFI, you have to have the "Line" power in to line side on GFI, if GFI is wired backwards, it wont work, back in the old days, you could wire them backwards and the gfi would work, but not trip

The heaters plug into the GFCI, not hard wired. Plus, that heater works in the other GFCI.

 

[LXCam]

Yes with a tester if you have one. Also is the heater plugged in?. I assumed it was not and you were still having issues with the unit not resetting. If that's the case, unplug it. If it trips when it's plugged in, like was previously said, the unit has a ground fault issue.

 

[dw1]

OK, so we cant get GFI on with nothing plugged into it, do you have a meter as suggested above (check voltage between black and white/ black and ground, are there joints on the wires anywhere in the barn before the panel? check terminations in panel, breaker and neutral bar?

 

[Mustang51js]

Check to see if wires are reversed and on the line side of gfi. Also used something besides your finger to push reset, have had it before where I couldn't push it far enough in with my finger the first time,used a screwdriver and it worked

 

[robertwhite]

Also is the heater plugged in?. I assumed it was not and you were still having issues with the unit not resetting. .

Nope, not plugged in.

OK, so we cant get GFI on with nothing plugged into it, do you have a meter as suggested above (check voltage between black and white/ black and ground, are there joints on the wires anywhere in the barn before the panel? check terminations in panel, breaker and neutral bar?

Right, GFCI by itself will not set.

Will have to test wires with meter, as suggested.

So if current is supposed to be the same from black/white & black/ground, what would be the cause if they aren't? Keep in mind that the entire set up was used maybe 2 weeks ago and worked as it always has. Nothing has been changed.

Check to see if wires are reversed and on the line side of gfi.

Wires are not reversed. This set up has been in use for several years, as is.

 

[dw1]

AS one of the posters said above, possible a neutral connection has come loose, check the black/white voltage and then chack black/bare wire voltage, should have 120 volts either way, did you say you have joints in the barn somewhere?

 

[LXCam]

So if current is supposed to be the same from black/white & black/ground, what would be the cause if they aren't? Keep in mind that the entire set up was used maybe 2 weeks ago and worked as it always has. Nothing has been changed.

A GFI is nothing more then a deductive adding machine. It measures the amount of current going out on the hot wire and returning on the neutral. There must equal the same which equates to zero. If it reads more then a couple hundred miliamps difference, that means it's going to ground somewhere thus creating a shock hazard. Measuring the voltage like I said will confirm if the neutral is the problem as both the neutral and the ground are electrically the same connection at the panel.

 

[robertwhite]

A GFI is nothing more then a deductive adding machine. It measures the amount of current going out on the hot wire and returning on the neutral. There must equal the same which equates to zero. If it reads more then a couple hundred miliamps difference, that means it's going to ground somewhere thus creating a shock hazard. Measuring the voltage like I said will confirm if the neutral is the problem as both the neutral and the ground are electrically the same connection at the panel.

Gotcha. Never really knew how a GFCI worked before, now I sort of understand.

If the voltage is different, how would I chase down exactly where the issue is? Only likely source would be at the junction or in the original wire from panel to junction. So if I get a bad reading at the GFCI end, I could test at the junction without the newer wire attached, yes?

Also, what do I set my meter at to ensure seeing the drop/difference, if any?

 

[dw1]

If you have a multi meter, set it on AC/Volts, check voltage between black and white wire, should be 120 volts or there about, if no voltage check between black and bare, move back inside barn where new wire and old wire connect, check the same there, if you still have problem, follow wire back to panel and see if you have joints anywhere else

 

[LXCam]

Gotcha. Never really knew how a GFCI worked before, now I sort of understand.

If the voltage is different, how would I chase down exactly where the issue is? Only likely source would be at the junction or in the original wire from panel to junction. So if I get a bad reading at the GFCI end, I could test at the junction without the newer wire attached, yes?

Also, what do I set my meter at to ensure seeing the drop/difference, if any?

Ya there's no real magic to a GFI. There don't even need a ground to work properly.

Well then you keep working backwards towards the source completing the same test. So I think to answer your question, yes. Meter needs to read at least 125 volts, so depending upon what you have, probably 250V ~ (ac). And are you sure each circuit is dedicated? of do they share the neutral?.

Also one reason for using the ground as a testing reference is to help identify where the problem is. Do you have a poor connection on the hot lead or neutral. Lets say you test between the hot and neutral and find you have 70volts, but between the hot and ground you have 120 volts, now you know there is a bad connection with the neutral wire. Inversely, if you have say 50 volts hot to ground and 50 volts hot to neutral, you have a poor connection on the hot wire.

Now to really throw you for a loop. Assuming these run underground, you could also have a skinned conductor allowing voltage to bleed off into the ground and since it's not a direct short and or protected by a GFI can explain a low voltage issue. But lets not go there until you have tested the basics.

 

[robertwhite]

And are you sure each circuit is dedicated? of do they share the neutral?.

. Lets say you test between the hot and neutral and find you have 70volts, but between the hot and ground you have 120 volts, now you know there is a bad connection with the neutral wire. Inversely, if you have say 50 volts hot to ground and 50 volts hot to neutral, you have a poor connection on the hot wire.

Now to really throw you for a loop. Assuming these run underground, you could also have a skinned conductor allowing voltage to bleed off into the ground and since it's not a direct short and or protected by a GFI can explain a low voltage issue. But lets not go there until you have tested the basics.

Definitely separate lines.

I understand about the example of 70 vs 120, but don't get the example of 50 vs 50, being the bad hot. Is it simply because they both should show 120?

And finally, wires are above ground completely visible, no chafing.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Check to see if wires are reversed and on the line side of gfi. Also used something besides your finger to push reset, have had it before where I couldn't push it far enough in with my finger the first time,used a screwdriver and it worked

New GFCI receptacles won't work if the neutral and hot are reversed. Wires are crossed somewhere.

Indeed, I usually have to use a key or other object to push the reset, I cannot get it to go in far enough to click with my fingers, not pointy enough nor strong enough.

Charles

 

[LXCam]

Definitely separate lines.

I understand about the example of 70 vs 120, but don't get the example of 50 vs 50, being the bad hot. Is it simply because they both should show 120?

And finally, wires are above ground completely visible, no chafing.

Correct. Then if you find a low voltage condition, start looking for a poor connection somewhere.

 

[robertwhite]

Success

Measured voltage at the outlet end, 99v. Measured voltage at breaker, 120v. Went to junction box where old wiring from panel meets my new wiring from a few years ago, 99v.

Ripped out the old wire, ran new line from panel to junction box, tested at outlet end, 120v!!!

GFCI now resets and heater is back up and running in time for tonights frigid temps.

Thanks guys.

 

[LXCam]

Success

Measured voltage at the outlet end, 99v. Measured voltage at breaker, 120v. Went to junction box where old wiring from panel meets my new wiring from a few years ago, 99v.

Ripped out the old wire, ran new line from panel to junction box, tested at outlet end, 120v!!!

GFCI now resets and heater is back up and running in time for tonights frigid temps.

Thanks guys.

Utterly amazing!.




Ya I know..mooooooooooo

 

[theoldwizard1]

Ya there's no real magic to a GFI. They don't even need a ground to work properly.

AMAZING how many people don't understand that !

GFCIs measure the amount of current going down the hot and what is coming back on the neutral. If they are different, they trip. I don't know of any simple way to test this with a meter.

GFCI outlets "die" every day.

 

[LXCam]

AMAZING how many people don't understand that !

GFCIs measure the amount of current going down the hot and what is coming back on the neutral. If they are different, they trip. I don't know of any simple way to test this with a meter.

GFCI outlets "die" every day.

Ya but what made his kind of different was he still had the LED indicator light, so it was still getting voltage and had a neutral. Anyhow, all good now that it's fixed even if he hated my crappy cow jokes.

 

[robertwhite]

Utterly amazing!.