Welder tripping other breakers...weird

[Neuhaus]

Howdy all, I have a problem that is perplexing me to no end. My garage has a single 120v duplex outlet, on its own 20a breaker, that I use for my 120v welders. Recently I picked up the new HF Titanium Flux 125, and while it is a great little welder, it trips the breakers (AFCIs I believe) on totally different circuits. The moment I strike the arc the breaker for the upstairs trips and my wife’s computer shuts down. It has also tripped the breaker for my shop lights. All the while the welder is still chugging along. How on earth is it tripping totally different circuits? My other two 120v welders don’t cause a problem even cranked all the way up. The new welder trips those other circuits even when turned way down on output power.

I know that AFCIs are supposed to detect weirdo fluctuations in arcing or what have you, but on a different circuit? I don’t get it. Could the inverter welder be causing some sort of RF interference that is tripping the breakers?

Any help would be appreciated...

Ken

 

[bad_idea]

I have no clue, but I am curious to see what others have to say. That is weird.

 

[BigGarage]

Howdy all, I have a problem that is perplexing me to no end. My garage has a single 120v duplex outlet, on its own 20a breaker, that I use for my 120v welders. Recently I picked up the new HF Titanium Flux 125, and while it is a great little welder, it trips the breakers (AFCIs I believe) on totally different circuits. The moment I strike the arc the breaker for the upstairs trips and my wifeÂ’s computer shuts down. It has also tripped the breaker for my shop lights. All the while the welder is still chugging along. How on earth is it tripping totally different circuits? My other two 120v welders donÂ’t cause a problem even cranked all the way up. The new welder trips those other circuits even when turned way down on output power.

I know that AFCIs are supposed to detect weirdo fluctuations in arcing or what have you, but on a different circuit? I donÂ’t get it. Could the inverter welder be causing some sort of RF interference that is tripping the breakers?

Any help would be appreciated...

Ken

I'll tell you what's really weird; those little "up" arrows over a capital "A"..
I cannot help with your situation though, sorry.

EDIT: I found this online.

As far as the AFCI tripping when a "high load" comes on "any circuit"--could indeed be a bad ACFI breaker, as Hiker mentioned. Or it could be some miswire or fault in the system. If anothter AFCI breaker does the same thing, I suggest not ignoring it and swapping the AFCI out for a standard breaker. There's something wrong, and although the system may function, it'd be prudent to find out what the problem is.

Time to call in a pro, someone with real troubleshooting skills (and when I say that, I don't mean to diss Hiker...) If there's some weird fault, it may take some time (and time = money) to find it.

That's the thing about these AFCIs. They trip under conditions that we never would have known about before...like neutral/equipment ground crosses, or inadvertantly shared neutrals between circuits. Or more seriously, there may be a high-impedance ground fault, or short somewhere. And finding something like that before it goes south is a good thing.


Dennis

 

[gungatim]

Spurious RF emissions can set off some brands of AFCI breakers. would not be surprised if the circuit in low cost welders are not shielded...

 

[fitter30]

Check the connection at the ground rod breaker must be getting a high feedback thru the ground

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Check the connection at the ground rod breaker must be getting a high feedback thru the ground

What?

That doesnt make any sense...

 

[PCustoms]

There's other threads about this issue.

I have had my Lincoln trip gfci on different circuits.

 

[Terry D]

I would think maybe it has something with the neutral connections. But if they got mixed up when the place was wired, they would do it when you would plug anything in. Are these circuits that tripping all on the same phase/leg?

 

[dw1]

Just curious, what brand panel/afci's do you have?

 

[Terry D]

I did try to look it up on the internet. It seems that it could possibly be a frequency issue caused by the welder. Its beyond my knowledge.

 

[jkeyser14]

It is likely due to the welder emitting high frequency EMI, which can trip GFCIs and AFCIs, even if they aren't on the same circuit. If there is a high frequency start option try turning it off. Other than that, you can only try to ground the machine better or try replacing the breakers as you might have gotten a few that were extra sensitive. Last resort, see if Harbor Freight will swap it out.

 

[Gregua]

Oh, man...bad situation. Hope you found the answer.

 

[Neuhaus]

Alright, so an update... but first, thanks for all the input and ideas. On a whim I connected the welder to my generator and ran it off of that to see if it was a wiring thing in the box. Figured if it was RF interference the circuits would still trip. Went for the gusto on full power and... nothing. No AFCIs tripped. Tried repeatedly and nada. Plugged welder back in to the regular circuit, hit the gas and...nada, no AFCIs tripped. Aaargh! At this point I’m going with the assertion that AFCIs are haunted

 

[Neuhaus]

Panel is Cutler-Hammer and Eaton AFCIs, type BRAF, 15 amp.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Panel is Cutler-Hammer and Eaton AFCIs, type BRAF, 15 amp.

wait a minute

you have a cutler hammer panel with tan handle breakers and BR AFCIs?

I dont think BR AFCIs are listed for use in a CH panel. BR breakers are for use in a BR panel.

There are AFCIs listed for use in CH panels.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AQ9O9XO/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Terry D]

wait a minute

you have a cutler hammer panel with tan handle breakers and BR AFCIs?

I dont think BR AFCIs are listed for use in a CH panel. BR breakers are for use in a BR panel.

There are AFCIs listed for use in CH panels.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AQ9NGJM/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Cutler hammer has 2 lines, the BR which actually stands for Bryant whom the bought out years ago. And the CH line. Eaton owns them now. There is no way to swap the 2 breakers. defiantly not interchangeable. Its like trying to put a QO breaker in a Homeline panel.

 

[Copymutt]

Please excuse my ignorance. Are AFCIs required code for a garage? Maybe if attached?

 

[Terry D]

Nope, just GFCI protection on the receptacles

In the 2017 edition of the NEC®, Section 210.12 requires that for dwelling units, all 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, laundry areas, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by AFCIs.

Sent from my SM-G960U using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[ard]

AFAIK...

AFCIs have a processor that looks at high frequency 'content' in the circuit, to try and identify the distinctive characteristics of an 'arc' fault.

The HF (and other) welder apparently is generating enough noise in the circuit (and back the the panel) that the AFCIs are seeing it....

 

[Neuhaus]

Thanks again for all of the ideas and input. I’m kind of glad that my first thought of RF interference (or otherwise) might have been the culprit. Everything got stranger of course when I couldn’t duplicate the problem using power from the generator (which may have cancelled out the RF interference) or when plugging the welder back in to the wall outlet.

Today I picked up another HF Flux 125 and will experiment to see if it was a fluke. If the AFCIs have microprocessors then I may never figure out the catalyst that causes a false signal and trips the random breakers. I don’t want the solution to be replacing AFCIs with standard breakers just in case, and the resulting fire investigation. What about some kind of line filter for the welder power cord? Installing $400 worth of different AFCIs would be a bummer and no way am I taking the easy route of getting a different welder.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks again for all of the ideas and input. I’m kind of glad that my first thought of RF interference (or otherwise) might have been the culprit. Everything got stranger of course when I couldn’t duplicate the problem using power from the generator (which may have cancelled out the RF interference) or when plugging the welder back in to the wall outlet.

Today I picked up another HF Flux 125 and will experiment to see if it was a fluke. If the AFCIs have microprocessors then I may never figure out the catalyst that causes a false signal and trips the random breakers. I don’t want the solution to be replacing AFCIs with standard breakers just in case, and the resulting fire investigation. What about some kind of line filter for the welder power cord? Installing $400 worth of different AFCIs would be a bummer and no way am I taking the easy route of getting a different welder.

FYI- the BR AFCIs you have are not listed for use in the CH panel you have. They should be hanged regardless of yhe welder

 

[Terry D]

Wylies, he has to have a BR panel. There is no way possible to put a BR breaker in a CH panel. The breakers are different thicknesses and attach to the buss completely different CH is first picture, BR is second

Sent from my SM-G960U using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[fitter30]

Alot of weird electrical problems are from a bad ground. Since the problem is about induced noise or frequency and not line voltage the ground connection might be good for voltage but not the other. Ground rod connections normally just clamped to rod and a clean connection might help.

 

[MattT]

Since that machine is an inverter it might be causing a harmonic. At that price point I doubt they've spent much, if anything, on filtering.

 

[Neuhaus]

I can certainly give that a shot, so you’re talking about the ground rod next to the house right? Anything special I need to do before messing with that, breaker wise?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Alot of weird electrical problems are from a bad ground. Since the problem is about induced noise or frequency and not line voltage the ground connection might be good for voltage but not the other. Ground rod connections normally just clamped to rod and a clean connection might help.

Ummm no

Under normal operation, no voltage/current flows on grounding electrodes.

Grounding electrodes are for shunting lightening, limiting voltage to earth potential, and shunting primary voltage when it comes into contact with secondary lines.

Stray Currents and harmonics do not return to earth, despite popular misconcetion, they return to the source. The earth is not a good conductor for stray currents.

A ground rod is not gonna disipate what you describe.

Stray harmonics will return to the transformer via the neutral or hot legs.

Many transformers have been blown due to high harmonics induced by customer equipment.

A ground rod will not transmit these back to the transformer via earth

 

[MattT]

I can certainly give that a shot, so you’re talking about the ground rod next to the house right? Anything special I need to do before messing with that, breaker wise?

Turn the main off. The ground can go hot when you disconnect it from the grounding rod

 

[Neuhaus]

The more I think about it, the more it seems like RF interference or the like. There’s no way the welder is drawing too many amps, my dust collector pulls way more on startup. I picked up another welder of the same model (Black Friday sale and still need to hook it up and see what happens. Maybe the one I have has a weird component or wire touching something that is causing the problem.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Turn the main off. The ground can go hot when you disconnect it from the grounding rod

Only if the service neutral has a poor connection.

 

[SGKent]

is there another 20 amp circuit you can plug it into and see if it trips other breakers? If it continues then my thought is that there is a problem with the neutral bus that is causing it to rise in voltage for a brief moment, which fools the other breakers into thinking they have a fault. Might be time to ask the electric company to check all 3 legs to see if there is any corrosion in one of them. It does happen.

 

[MikeF2316]

My first thought is poor connections in neutrals. My first action would be to clean all the neutral connections in the panel, and make sure they're torqued properly.

 

[Neuhaus]

My first thought is poor connections in neutrals. My first action would be to clean all the neutral connections in the panel, and make sure they're torqued properly.

I’m following, but the two offending AFCIs don’t trip with my other two 120v welders even when set at max (80-125a) output. The inverter flux mig trips those two AFCIs even when turned down (40a or so), but doesn’t trip it’s own 20a standard breaker.

 

[Certified Drunk]

Loose connection inside the welder?

 

[MikeF2316]

I’m following, but the two offending AFCIs don’t trip with my other two 120v welders even when set at max (80-125a) output. The inverter flux mig trips those two AFCIs even when turned down (40a or so), but doesn’t trip it’s own 20a standard breaker.

I'm definitely guessing, I'm an automotive guy. Whenever a car has one circuit affecting another, the first place to look is the grounds, which is analogous to the neutrals in house wiring. Factor in all the connections in the panel and the fact you're actually making arcs - and who knows what frequencies make the breakers trip.

 

[yatg]

Possibly the proximity of the cables, sort of like phantom voltage. IOW, the cables run closely along side each other for a distance and that's inducing the arc frequency into the cables going to the AFCI breakers.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

My first thought is poor connections in neutrals. My first action would be to clean all the neutral connections in the panel, and make sure they're torqued properly.

I'm thinking more like improperly shared Neutrals.

Tommy

 

[Higgins]

How about checking the MFG web site to see if anyone else is experiencing the same problem, OR is there a product recall on those breakers ???

 

[472scout]

I had a similar issue with breakers tripping randomly and during lightning storms. It turned out to be a broken wire on a 15 amp circuit in the main panel. The wire was completely broke through, but the ends were touching. If this was my house I would stick a circuit tester into every outlet to verify proper wiring, visually and manually check every connection and wire in the panel, and then break out the multimeter and test suspect circuits. Tons of youtube videos on how to do that. Be careful.

 

[Neuhaus]

Another update; I hooked up and ran the second HF Titanium Flux 125 with no issues. I ran bead after bead on different power settings and neither of the two haunted AFCIs tripped. A couple of people had suggested cleaning and or tightening down the neutrals in the breaker box and it didn’t quite make sense to me in that I couldn’t see how this particular welder would be affected by a wonky neutral wire but not other high draw tools plugged in to that same outlet. Maybe something was awry in that particular unit, or there were other conditions that added up to an RF interference when I pulled the trigger on the mig gun and popped one of those two AFCIs. I’ll have to run the new welder some more and see if it happens again. Thanks again for the input and suggestions

 

[u3b3rg33k]

whats the wiring in the panel look like? are the wires for the "welder" circuit nice and tidy or wrapped over/under around other stuff in the panel?