Welder with arc fault breakers

[infinkc]

As soon as I start to weld(miller in 120v mode), it trips my arc fault breaker. Only way to fix is put in a standard breaker?

I usually have it connected 240v, but doing work outside and can only use 120v

Not going to buy a generator for this.

 

[BrandonV]

Pretty sure outdoor outlets have no AFCI requirement. A welder creating a controlled arc is going to trip them.

Probably just swap it out with a GFCI breaker. I assume they have a DFCI in there today? Only reason I could think that there is AFCI protection outdoors is because that circuit also has a required area on it.

 

[sparky 1971]

Pretty sure outdoor outlets have no AFCI requirement. A welder creating a controlled arc is going to trip them.

Probably just swap it out with a GFCI breaker. I assume they have a DFCI in there today? Only reason I could think that there is AFCI protection outdoors is because that circuit also has a required area on it.

That is correct, but there is nothing stopping the installer from pulling the outdoor receptacle power from a circuit that is supposed to be AFCI protected. It could also be AFCI/GFCI combo breaker. A lot of contractors seem to just use those to cut down on the confusion. I use AFCI breakers and GFCI receptacles when I have to. That way, when the AFCI gets canned, the GFCI protection is still there. Getting rid of the breaker is exactly what I would do if it were my own house, I'd probably get rid of the GFCI also. I may or may not do that at someone else's house if they offered to pay me cash and not want any paperwork.

 

[infinkc]

That is correct, but there is nothing stopping the installer from pulling the outdoor receptacle power from a circuit that is supposed to be AFCI protected. It could also be AFCI/GFCI combo breaker. A lot of contractors seem to just use those to cut down on the confusion. I use AFCI breakers and GFCI receptacles when I have to. That way, when the AFCI gets canned, the GFCI protection is still there. Getting rid of the breaker is exactly what I would do if it were my own house, I'd probably get rid of the GFCI also. I may or may not do that at someone else's house if they offered to pay me cash and not want any paperwork.

Yea it is an AFCI/GFCI combo as I don’t have any GFCI outlets on the house. I know this circuit is dedicated for all the outdoor receptacles, doesn’t share to anything inside. I removed the combo breaker from my garage already and put in a standard GFCI one, guess it’s time to do this one also.

 

[SlappyWhite]

For what it is worth my SquareD QO 20 amp dual function CAFI/GFCI (CAFI is Combination Arc Fault...) breakers to my outdoor outlets do not trip with my Lincoln 120V MIG, never, and I have many hours of welding with this set-up. In Canada arc and ground fault are both required on outdoor 120V outlets--why I have it. US may be different.

A few questions?

-How old is the AFCI, older ones had more nuisance trips?
-Have you tried a lower setting on the welder, maybe the breakers are tripping on current not arc?
-Is it a 15 amp breaker/circuit, related to above?
-Are the outlets back stabbed (bad) and what quality?

I did a bunch of research on this and had a thread on here about it as well. https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/afci-and-a-welder.335528/ Research wise overall opinions were very mixed if it should be a problem or not but in general new CAFI breakers seemed to follow my experience (no trips due to arc).

On a regular 15 amp breaker I can trip it with my Lincoln (on current), why I am all 20 amp outside, 12 gauge of course, heavy duty outlets, no back stabbing..

 

[mike93lx]

I'd swap the breaker for a standard and keep the afci on the shelf as a spare when another fails

 

[sparky 1971]

I'd throw the AFCI in the trash and put a box of standard breakers on the shelf for when the rest fail.

Fixed it for ya. You had a couple of words spelled wrong.

 

[mike93lx]

Fixed it for ya. You had a couple of words spelled wrong.

******** autocorrect. Thanks for looking out

 

[u3b3rg33k]

As soon as I start to weld(miller in 120v mode), it trips my arc fault breaker. Only way to fix is put in a standard breaker?

I usually have it connected 240v, but doing work outside and can only use 120v

Not going to buy a generator for this.

Pretty sure outdoor outlets have no AFCI requirement. A welder creating a controlled arc is going to trip them.

Probably just swap it out with a GFCI breaker. I assume they have a DFCI in there today? Only reason I could think that there is AFCI protection outdoors is because that circuit also has a required area on it.

I think AFCI listens for a certain sound in the MHz range. the input side of the welder shouldn't be passing that noise back, unless it's on the ground(?)
Perhaps a low pass filter (e.g. 1:1 iron core isolation transformer) would help. or a different model/run of AFCI. or a 240V extension cord. I've got a 100' 6ga so I can get power wherever, but you likely don't need 50A...

ARRL Helps Manufacturer to Resolve Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter RFI Problems

The American Radio Relay League (ARRL) is the national association for amateur radio, connecting hams around the U.S. with news, information and resources.

www.arrl.org

Eaton and ARRL agreed that when the manufacturer comes out with any new models of breakers, it will ask the League to test them at W1AW. “It’s a win-win situation,” Gruber said. Eaton also has agreed to work with anyone having a problem with RF tripping its AFCIs. Eaton says that AFCI manufacturers “are aware of this compatibility issue and are actively working to correct this in future products.”

Eaton’s Relyea said that hams experiencing unwanted tripping problems with their or their neighbors’ AFCIs should contact the manufacturer as the first step in rectifying the compatibility issue. In the case of Eaton breakers, contact Bob Handick (412-893-3746) or Joe Fello (412-893-3745).

EDIT: just a thought, you could try twisting the ground lead around the torch lead for most of the run, try to contain some of the noise. if the lines are far apart it's much more likely to be picked up by 'antennas'

 

[Jack Ryan]

I would have thought that an AFCI that detects arcing not in the circuit being monitored isn't worth much.

It is possible, I suppose, to have a welding machine that back feeds RFI sufficient to trip an AFCI but in most jurisdictions, it would not be complaint.

Perhaps I expect too much.

Jack

 

[dave*99]

RFI is complicated and can arrive from many paths.

Conducted and radiated emissions are factors. The welding arc can radiate and be picked up by any nearby branch circuit wiring and potentially trip an AFCI.

That's likely the issue the Ham radio operators are experiencing. Their radio signals are tripping AFCIs perhaps even in their neighbors houses.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

I would have thought that an AFCI that detects arcing not in the circuit being monitored isn't worth much.

It is possible, I suppose, to have a welding machine that back feeds RFI sufficient to trip an AFCI but in most jurisdictions, it would not be complaint.

Perhaps I expect too much.

Jack

what should happen:

what really happens!

 

[dave*99]

Not surprising. A quality transmitter can give the same result, but those Baofeng radios are also notorious for spurious emissions.

 

[Jack Ryan]

what should happen:

what really happens!

Identifying an unambiguous arc signature is tricky but if the manufacturer can't do that, the devices should not be required.

In the case of the Baofeng white noise generator, it is tripping GFCIs. That is poor circuit design and/or shielding of the GFCI - if a manufacturer can't get a GFCI correct, it has no chance of getting an AFCI correct.

I suppose they will work it out eventually.

Jack

 

[u3b3rg33k]

I was under the impression that yellow buttons are for GFCI and white are for AFCI/CAFCI.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I was under the impression that yellow buttons are for GFCI and white are for AFCI/CAFCI.

entirely dependent on the brand