Welding in patch panels

[MP&C]

Lay the FSP on your panel upside down. Roll it as you mark it and be sure to leave about an inch of excess to be trimmed later. Once the flat sheet is cut out, it fits either side. The direction you start the crown determines what side it goes on.

 

[mopar4don]

Hey Robert, Yeah I guess that would work!
WOW I really missed that one. I've got a shot bag now so let the fun begin

 

[MP&C]

Just like using an FSP for either side. If you have a crash damaged side and can pull a pattern from the opposite (good) side of the vehicle, the FSP can be flipped inside out to provide a pattern for the damaged side. So in transferring to the sheet steel, use whichever side of the FSP that allows you to mark the cut line best, even if you have to roll it along as you mark the panel.

What did you get for a shot bag, or should I ask is your wife missing a leather purse?

 

[mopar4don]

Nope no purses are being used! (not yet anyway)
I got a 12" diameter from Dagger tools... I will be updating this when I get it pounded out close to the FSP. That's then I will need to start bending the creases and I'm not sure where to start with that.

 

[tig]

What a great thread. A metric sh*t ton of demystification. Thanks all.

 

[mopar4don]

Were should I cut the panel?
The red line which basically goes straight across, about an inch above the body line? Or the blue line that flows around the depression for the bumper staying about an inch away.

I know going vertical is not the best situation, but in this case would the depression help to hold the panel?

 

[MP&C]

Were should I cut the panel?
The red line which basically goes straight across, about an inch above the body line? Or the blue line that flows around the depression for the bumper staying about an inch away.

I know going vertical is not the best situation, but in this case would the depression help to hold the panel?

Please turn your fender right side up and use the correct reference. Those lines are BELOW the body line, you're confusing me again!!


The blue line may give you less fabrication difficulty. I'd use either, based on your results in making the panel.. Crown first, folds afterward..

 

[mopar4don]

Please turn your fender right side up and use the correct reference. Those lines are BELOW the body line, you're confusing me again!!


The blue line may give you less fabrication difficulty. I'd use either, based on your results in making the panel.. Crown first, folds afterward..

Sorry Robert, I cant turn them over....
Here you go for reference
I was hoping for the blue line! easier for a rookie like me!

 

[MP&C]

Don, what year is your Charger? Here's some teaser pics of one I should have kept... 440 6 pack 4 speed 4.11. Carburetion not factory original..

 

[MP&C]

Oh.. don't forget, no cutting off the old panel until after the new one is made and matches. Leaves you options. And yes, I'm a hippocrite. I normally back myself into a corner

 

[mopar4don]

WOW, what a nice looking ride!
How long ago did you have that?

My Charger is a 1969.
Here is my resto thread if your interested.... It's like 1/4 of the size of your projects thread,
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,104414.0.html

And I won't forget to leave the original as long as possible, especially when I don't know what I am doing.

 

[MP&C]

That was probably 20 years ago

 

[mopar4don]

Ok once I get the FSP to lay down against the metal, what will I need to do next? Start tiping the edges?

 

[MP&C]

I'd start with the bottom of the panel where it rolls under. You may need to find a piece of pipe the correct radius and weld to the end of a flat bar, clamp in vise to use as a post dolly

 

[banjopete]

Happy to say I'm still soldiering on and improving through practice with all the amazing help here.



What a great reference you've built here MP&C thanks a million as always.

 

[mopar4don]

Ok before I start tipping the edges, I need to get this area (red arc) were it crowns the opposite direction of the rest of the panel. How do you suggest I form this?

 

[MP&C]

If we were concerned with one direction only, it would be known as Form or Arrangement. A simple roll. To get a crown in two directions is SHAPE. you can only get shape through shrinking or stretching. So you will either need to shrink the outer perimeter of your patch or stretch the center portion of your patch. Again, the choice on which method to use is based on what tools you have to perform either function. Given your shot bag you just got, I would think it easier to use a hammer and shot bag to add the needed shape. Monitor your progress using the FSP....

 

[mopar4don]

Ok use the shot bag..... I' have tried that but just not getting there. So I start second guessing myself. The problem I seem to be having is when I get good shape along 90% of the panel, and I work that end, it throws the other shape off. Oh well if it was easy anyone could do it!

 

[mopar4don]

Ok next question,
I have the patch close to shape. (very little movement in the FSP)
I was wondering if I should get all of the bumps (hammer dents) out of the metal (get it as smooth as possible)
before I start tipping the edges?
If I tip the edges, then smooth out the dings, I am concerned that the shape is locked in and when I hammer dolly out the dings it may change the shape?
Thanks

 

[MP&C]

Get it where the FSP doesn't move at all before moving forward, to include any smoothing you care to do.

 

[NYBODYMAN]

Subscribing to this thread. Nice work all around.

 

[MP&C]

What a great thread. A metric sh*t ton of demystification. Thanks all.

Now that there is funny

 

[mopar4don]

Well I have had an epic FAIL! Not real surprising considering I dont know what I am doing.

I tried bending over a corner and because (I think) my anvil was flat and did not have a curve in it. When I bent it over it took the shape out of it! At that point I decided to slice off the 90 degree corner with thoughts of welding it back on last. (I know Robert, this is not how you teach) Well to make a long story SHORT I tried another tip and lets just say it did not work out! Not sure where I am going next.... It is just really frustrating!

 

[MP&C]

Pictures? how can we all learn from this by only reading what you write...

 

[mopar4don]

Well I have had an epic FAIL! Not real surprising considering I don't know what I am doing.

I tried bending over a corner and because (I think) my anvil was flat and did not have a curve in it. When I bent it over it took the shape out of it! At that point I decided to slice off the 90 degree corner with thoughts of welding it back on last. (I know Robert, this is not how you teach) Well to make a long story SHORT I tried another tip and lets just say it did not work out! Not sure where I am going next.... It is just really frustrating!

Pictures? how can we all learn from this by only reading what you write...

Here is the panel after I removed most of the hammer dents

This is were I am trying to bend a 90 degree In this pic you can see the anvil I made to help me bend this. Now it looks pretty good but when I bent this I lost the arc that runs parallel with the tip line.

SO at this point I decided to slice off the tip I had just made and reform the end, I was thinking I would just weld it back on later.

Here you can see the double curve after I reshaped it. This is the edge that I had just sliced off

So the next thing I was trying to get was this tip. My thumb is where I sliced off the metal.. or where the 90 degree bend is

I bent a rod to try and use as a tipping fixture

Clamped it up

and tried to bend it over.

It just didn't go so well

I made another anvil out of flat stock to use but it didn't help

 

[MP&C]

What we're doing here is trying to duplicate what the factory did with about a 100 ton drop press. So when you take the bottom flange and try to fold it, unless the outer portion is shorter, it's going to straighten things out. Lets go back to your initial shaping of your patch. In order to get crown in the panel to get it to match your FSP, you either need to add stretch to the center or shrink to the outer perimeter. Which you choose is based largely upon the tools at your disposal. Even with a HF or Lancaster shrinker, the jaw depth is insufficient to shrink progressively into the center of the panel, given the size of your patch. So stretch is the likely choice you would use. Now if we had measured along line B from front to back while flat and after shape was put in, you would see that length has increased from blocking the panel into your shot bag (hammering). The shape along line A is possibly flatter than B, so after stretching it has increased in length, but less than B. Point of all this confusion is that adding shape in the center makes linear length longer, or by comparison, outer edges are shorter in length than that in the center.

So looking back at your patch, lets call it a 2" flange that we're folding under (just to have a number assigned).. keeping the fold, a parallel datum line 1" out from there, and the outer edge all the same length when folding is going to straighten things out, exactly as you experienced. To duplicate what that OEM drop press did and to maintain the crown you had put in, the fold is ** in length, one inch out (parallel still) should be slightly shorter in length, and the outer edge should be slightly shorter yet. SO the point of all this is that you should be shrinking the flange to keep your crown, and shrinking more the closer you get to the edge.

The portion that gets folded back upward can be left intact and still perform shrinking across it as well, but you would likely need to use tuck shrinking. For now, take what you have left of your patch and see if it doesn't restore the crown if you shrink the "flange"

 

[mopar4don]

The portion that gets folded back upward can be left intact and still perform shrinking across it as well, but you would likely need to use tuck shrinking. For now, take what you have left of your patch and see if it doesn't restore the crown if you shrink the "flange"

Just to be clear, after I sliced off the 90 degree bend I re-hammered the crown back into the patch.

At this point, what I am trying to do is make the bend were my finger is pointing, lets call it a 45 degree bend.
The rod helped get it started, but what I am not happy with is the crispness of the edge of the bend.
I get that it may need a little bit of shrinking (because I am not tipping perpendicular to the curve)
But how do I bend it "crisply" (if that is a word)

 

[MP&C]

You have differing forces working against you. Attempting to make the bend at the crease of a crowned panel is pushing the ends of the crease back outward to form more of a straight line, losing some of your crown. You can't make the entire bend without shrinking along the way. With your FSP on the original piece, you should be able to mark where this crease is located. Now transfer that mark to the new patch. Just as we're bending something across a sharp anvil here:

You'll need to do similar. But since your panel has a crown, your "anvil" should not be straight across, you need to have the ends relieved/radius-ed to match the panel's crown. Next, we bent the flange in the video in three or four steps. Note when bending the radius toward either end of the tail pan, we start to have ruffles or tucks forming as this excess metal is trying to go somewhere. This is why you can't form the complete bend all at once. Slight bend from one end of the crease to the other, then shrink as needed to restore "crown" of the main part of your patch. Here a profile gauge would be handy in addition to the FSP. Once crown is back where it should be, slight bend again from one end to the other, shrink again as needed. Repeat as needed.

As to marking where your crease goes, I prefer to mark on the top side where you will be hitting with the hammer. If your crease gets slightly off the mark, you can immediately see it. Readjust, hammer to bring crease back to the mark, and continue.

 

[mopar4don]

You have differing forces working against you. Attempting to make the bend at the crease of a crowned panel is pushing the ends of the crease back outward to form more of a straight line, losing some of your crown. You can't make the entire bend without shrinking along the way. With your FSP on the original piece, you should be able to mark where this crease is located. Now transfer that mark to the new patch. Just as we're bending something across a sharp anvil here:

You'll need to do similar. But since your panel has a crown, your "anvil" should not be straight across, you need to have the ends relieved/radius-ed to match the panel's crown.
So my anvil could look like the last pic, with maybe a tighter radius
Next, we bent the flange in the video in three or four steps. Note when bending the radius toward either end of the tail pan, we start to have ruffles or tucks forming as this excess metal is trying to go somewhere. This is why you can't form the complete bend all at once. Slight bend from one end of the crease to the other, then shrink as needed to restore "crown" of the main part of your patch. Here a profile gauge would be handy in addition to the FSP.
I have plenty of these profile gauges made to help me just in case. see pics below

Once crown is back where it should be, slight bend again from one end to the other, shrink again as needed. Repeat as needed.
So I need either a shrinker stretcher or I need to make tucking pliers from vise grips like you did?

As to marking where your crease goes, I prefer to mark on the top side where you will be hitting with the hammer. If your crease gets slightly off the mark, you can immediately see it. Readjust, hammer to bring crease back to the mark, and continue.

inside and outside profiles

inside and outside profiles

I even made one of these just in case

 

[MP&C]

The anvil should be much the same as picking out a body dolly. Matched as close as you can get to the body crown without the corners touching.. If the crown changes across the panel, anvil should accommodate any location WITHOUT the corners touching..

 

[mopar4don]

A little progress....
started tipping 2 sides and the corner

Here I am working the corner in, it was a bear! I mostly just kept hammering and working it over and over until it moved to where I wanted it.
There most be a better way.

checked the profile, and you can see how far off I am.
This end needs some shrinking

So I made up some tucking pliers (thanks Robert)(backup to page 6 for Roberts tuck plier build)

Here you can see I heated the folds up cherry red and I clamped the metal down (this helped hold the tucks when hammering)

The profile is much better now

this end needed shrinking as well

Panel is getting close now

 

[mopar4don]

So I have the panel fitting pretty well over the top of the "good fender" (the fender I made the FSP from)
At this point I am trying to get the FSP to fit over the patch , (just like the FSP fits over the original) I don't think I will get there because the patch is just a little different (edges hold it away from the outside)

My question is, how do I know when I am done? Or do you have any tips on knowing when to leave it alone?
Thanks in advance

 

[MP&C]

I see your profile template from top to bottom, how is it looking front to back? What on the

I don't think I will get there because the patch is just a little different (edges hold it away from the outside)

is causing the edges to hold it away? too sharp? crease in wrong place? need more details...

 

[mopar4don]

I think the edges are ever so slightly off. I think the problem is a mixture of the creases being slightly off (1/32 or less) and the corner edge not being sloped or positioned exactly perfect.
Anyway I checked it with all of my templates and got it really close.
I was happy with it enough to start to splice it into the fender! I will update tomarrow

 

[mopar4don]

Here I want to tip this edge in to be like the original

This is what I used and it worked pretty well. I would clamp at the line and slightly bend it. I didn't know how it was going to work because there is a crown in the panel. I assume it worked because I was only bending a little bit at a time moving back and forth.

MORE to come.......

 

[mopar4don]

Here I am laying out the fender to cut

Here I am gettin after it

There is NO going back now!

After I smoothed out the cut from the plasma cutter I clamped up the patch
(LOOKS GOOD so I don't need to call Robert on the speed dial)

Layed out the cut line with a scriber

Here the patch is in place and ready to weld

 

[nonhog]

Looking good!

 

[MP&C]

Looks awesome Don!

 

[mopar4don]

Looking good!

Thank you

Looks awesome Don!

Thank you, and to think I was ready to throw in the towel!

 

[MP&C]

Glad you didn't.. What you've shown there is a good testament to what can be done with a bit of determination and minimal tools.. And to think 15 to 20 years ago someone would have tapped in the rust holes, smeared the bondo on the panel with the drips through the holes to "anchor" the filler, and painted. Congrats on showing there is a better way, easily obtainable..