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Welding Paranoia

wfopete

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I'm getting ready to weld my KTM motorcycle frame pipe mount. I've removed the ignition but I have heard that stick, MIG and TIG can cause arcing in the engine main bearing races, wheel bearings or any bearing. I figure if you have a good enough ground everything will be fine but now I'm a little worried & I'm getting ready to pull the motor because of this condition.

I'm I full of it or can anyone chime in?
 
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larry_g

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You need to pay attention to the current flow path. Fasten your ground clamp near to the weld joint onto one of the members being welded on to minimize problems.

lg
no neat sig line
 

JeremyB

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Some KTM frames are made from chrome moly steel. I'm not a welding expert, but there are considerations to keep the steel from getting brittle. You may want to check into it if it concerns you.
 

bad_idea

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you get messed up bearings when current flows through them, just like messed up limbs when current flows through you! not trying to be a wise *** (well, maybe a little) just trying to make a good comparison. if your ground is close to your work then the current will flow from welding tool (welding rod, tig torch, mig gun) through metal to ground clamp. always good practice to disconnect the battery on a vehicle when welding.
 

sewerzuk

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You need to pay attention to the current flow path. Fasten your ground clamp near to the weld joint onto one of the members being welded on to minimize problems.

lg
no neat sig line

^ ditto

There's no reason for the current to flow through any bearings if you have your ground clamp on the same material you are welding on. If you happen to clamp the ground lead to the engine itself (or the rear wheel, or the handlebars, etc.) and then try to weld on the frame, you are risking damage to wiring, bearings, etc.
 

omr

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all good advice , i once welded some thing on a bike and the steel braided brake lines got too hot to touch ..lol

best bet is to disconnect the battery and like every one said keep the ground on the material you are welding so the current doesnt have to pass through any thing ..
 

ddrewyor

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Keep ground close to weld area. Buddy welded on a door and had ground on the frame. Hinges didn't work so well after that:shocking: Also, you can zap the ECU if you are not careful on ground location and disconnect the battery. I also have unplugged the computer just to be safe.

Dave
 

Michael Ohsann

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Having mig welded on my KTM SMC 625 multiple times, I can assure you that if you clamp close to your welding area, you will have no problems. I didn't disconnect the ignition or battery either. Mine is an 05 so I don't have fuel injection to worry about, I would have pulled the plug on the ecu if that was the case. You'll get plenty of practice on a big ktm, all of my muffler mounts have cracked off, my horn mount has gone too, all due to masssssive vibration.
 

Ron Lombardo

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WFO PETE,

Welding Chromoly 4130 requires preheating the steel and welding woth the same metal wire, tig welding, quenching with water or oil, the reheating again ... so you might want to double check if the frame is Chromoly first .. otherwise the weld will break.

Th simplest way to tell is hit it with a file ... if the file slides over it with little or no scratching the metal .. its 4130 .. if it digs in its mild steel and you can weld away ... i would use a little preheat and quench even with mild steel.

Ron
 

ZTFab

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WFO PETE,

Welding Chromoly 4130 requires preheating the steel and welding woth the same metal wire, tig welding, quenching with water or oil, the reheating again ... so you might want to double check if the frame is Chromoly first .. otherwise the weld will break.

Th simplest way to tell is hit it with a file ... if the file slides over it with little or no scratching the metal .. its 4130 .. if it digs in its mild steel and you can weld away ... i would use a little preheat and quench even with mild steel.

Ron

That has to be the WORST advice I've ever heard given when it comes to welding of 4130 steel.

For starters, you don't want to use 4130 filler unless you will be heat treating the entire frame afterwards. (...and that means properly heat treating it not making it red hot with an oxy/fuel torch and guessing).

Standard ER70S filler will be more than sufficient. The filler and the parent metal dilution(mixture) will yield a much more ductile weld that will be less prone to cracking.

ER80D-2 can also be used and will provide a little more "as welded" strength in the joint but, for what you are welding, ER70S would be more than sufficient.

If you are working with 4130 you DO NOT want to quench that material with water or oil. That will cause Martensite to form in the grain structure and will make the frame very brittle and it will almost certainly crack.

Welding of 4130, in frame sections like this made of thin wall tubing, will not require preheat. "V" out any cracks with a grinder or a file, drill a small hole (1/8") at the end of each crack (to stop the crack from continuing), Clean the metal/joint of all contaminants, perform the weld, let the material cool slowly in the air to achieve as close to a "normalized" state as possible.

If TIG welding, make sure to use a sufficient amount of filler wire to to avoid starvation and over dilution of the joint. That will also cause the joint to become brittle.
 

Ron Lombardo

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Thats professional advice ... not copy and pasting ... and is the advice of 32 years of welding, teaching welding and welding in high pressure steam, process and gas professionally ... not tack welding projects in your garage.

If your going to ride this motorcycle on the public streets and its chromoly, this is the process of how it needs to be done.

Also I realize your search over the internet for the use of ER70S is what you found but they are improper descriptions and improper recommendations. I would go with the matching filler metal to 4130 ER80S-D2 because if its a **** joint I would play it safe to achieve the higher strength and heat treating is not difficult.

Thin wall tubing is nealry impossible to create a tapered and not necessary. A **** jpint will be fine with the correct welding wire equal to the tubing your welding... Dont cheap out and use mild steel wire with chromoly. Chromoly 4130 is brittle already why reduce the strength.

Good job copy and pasting ....LOL
 

ZTFab

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Ron...the only one you're fooling is yourself.

Gotta go to bed now. I have a welding project to finish up in the morning for Southern California Edison that has to go to Certified Heat treat in LA then I start on a rigging hoist project for Northrop Grumman.

...and wouldn't you know it?? They added a section 10 to their Tool Process Specifications (TPS 1011)...

It states that all welds are to be a series of tacks done in a garage!!
Boy, did I luck out!!

It's a good thing I have my NRA card or I probably wouldn't have got the job! :thumbup:
 

blue dog

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...and wouldn't you know it?? They added a section 10 to their Tool Process Specifications (TPS 1011)...

It states that all welds are to be a series of tacks done in a garage!!
Boy, did I luck out!!

It's a good thing I have my NRA card or I probably wouldn't have got the job! :thumbup:

Most excellent response ZT Apparently Ron doesn't know we use expensive wine to quench our projects in the west, sometimes Avian if wine is not available.
 

omr

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he is welding an exhaust hanger on his motard not not working on the space shuttle ..lol
 

Garage5.9

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Just wondering if there are any documented cases where bearings have welded them selves together from arcing ? Im not doubting it but i find it hard to believe that a arc could jump between bearing in a engine block. I mean there isn't really a air gap and is mostly in oil
 

kmacht

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I have to side with ZtFab on this one. Most tube and frame aircraft are made from 4130 tubing. Do a little research and you will find that using 4130 filler is possible but not the recommended practice. The correct filler is ER70S. With either filler you need to post heat treat the weld if you are going to use TIG or MIG. It is a simple matter of heating the area up after welding with a rosebud torch to a nice dull red color and then letting cool slowly. The reason that alot of aircraft mechanics still prefer to use oxy-acetylene is that it provides a much bigger heat affected area and when you are done welding you just play the torch over the weld for a bit longer and let it cool. If using MIG or TIG the heat affected area is much tighter and more concentrated hence you don't get the post weld annealing that is needed unless you heat it back up with a torch and let it cool. In either case, if you use a mig or tig and quench it like Ron suggests you are just setting yourself up for the material right next to the weld to crack.

Keith
 
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Ron Lombardo

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Big names dont impress ... I could name hundreds ... Indian Point, Con Ed, Wyeth, Merck, Barr ... this is the proper welding spec. for this application for a chromoly frame and or suspension parts that your life depends upon. From their while welding in your garage you can dilute it. For strength select ER80S-D2 filler which produces tensile strength equal to the tubing.

Use of a torch over 165 -200 degrees preheat is excessive ... weld then final heat treat is all done in an oven. A oxy acetylene burns at 3500 ... you have obviously missed the boat here ... just hope Calif Edison power is not depending on your welds ... and Grumman is not flying planes over my house ... LOL
 

Ron Lombardo

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WFO PETE ... please accept my apologize .. I didnt mean to high jack your post and take this off in a tangent.

Ron
 

bronson_91

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ZT, I have seen some of your fab work elsewhere on this board. You, sir, have otherworldly skill. Those pictures speak a thousand words, and they're all I would need to follow your advice on the proper procedure to weld 4130--or anything else for that matter.
 

gte718p

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I have welded bearings together. Ground clamp fell off de to poor placement on my part and current found the path of least resistance through a bearing. It wasn't welded hard together it just didn't rotate right. One of the balls was welded to the race. Smacked it with a hammer ball came free and has been fine for 5000 miles.

So I know it can happen, but it takes bad lick or blatant stupidity for it to happen.
 

ZTFab

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Big names dont impress ... I could name hundreds ... Indian Point, Con Ed, Wyeth, Merck, Barr ... this is the proper welding spec. for this application for a chromoly frame and or suspension parts that your life depends upon. From their while welding in your garage you can dilute it. For strength select ER80S-D2 filler which produces tensile strength equal to the tubing.

Use of a torch over 165 -200 degrees preheat is excessive ... weld then final heat treat is all done in an oven. A oxy acetylene burns at 3500 ... you have obviously missed the boat here ... just hope Calif Edison power is not depending on your welds ... and Grumman is not flying planes over my house ... LOL

Well, which is it Ron??

First you suggested the use of 4130 filler which would be a pure match to the parent metal but now you are suggesting the use of ER80S-D2....and that's only after I mentioned it.

...and now you're NOT suggesting the water or oil quench that you first did but now you say that a full heat treat would be necessary? Even with the use of ER80S-D2??

...and I never said anything about using an oxy/fuel torch other than to say that you SHOULDN'T use one to post treat the weldment.

You are absolutely inconsistent in your advice and it's becoming more and more apparent that you haven't the slightest clue when it comes to outlining a proper welding procedure.
 

ZTFab

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ZTFab

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And I will also apologize about slightly derailing the thread to wfopete but to all the other members as well.

Unfortunately, the advice given concerning the welding and subsequent "quenching" of the 4130 was not only incorrect but unbelievably dangerous.

Here is an excerpt from Lincoln Electric regarding that particular recommendation that was given by Ron Lombardo:
---------------------------------
Q. Should I quench the metal after I finish welding?
A. ABSOLUTELY NOT! Rapid quenching of the metal will create problems such as cracking and lamellar tearing. Always allow the weld to slow cool.
 

NASTYZEN

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Boy! Some strange advice there Ron?? Quenching 4130??!!
ZT is right all the way. If your going to weld cro -moly ,people, please follow ZT's advice. Or bring it to a welder. Don't believe everything people post on the internet.
I think ZT's prior postings speak for themselves as to knowing what he's talking about.
As to the original question by the op, like everybody said ,put the clamp as close as possible to the welding area and you'll be fine.
Yes it is possible to arc thru bearings and anything conductive for that matter.Usually will create a pit or spot but I've yet to see something welded solid together from it.
I have often Oxy-Ace welded 4130, 4340 parts with no problem. Actually better than TIG in some cases because the weld and base metal remains more ductile.

I'm no expert but I've been welding for a living for 28 years.

I do however quench 4130,4140,4340,O1,and D2 in used motor oil to temper blades,dies and bushings.
Heat till cherry red, dunk in oil whilst stirring so as to keep contact between the part and the oil at all times while it cools down and stops bubbling.
Makes a lot less smoke in the shop as well.
 

t100

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I've seen sprint car builders stress relief 4130 tube frames with a rosebud after welding. never heard of quenching it.
 

Ron Lombardo

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Your statements are incorrect AGAIN .... You guys are talking about using OXY Acetylene preheat ... which is 3500 degrees and throwing oil on it .. any one knows this is not only an unsafe method and nothing good will become of it.

See below a copy and paste ...

Alloy Steel 4130
Heat Treatment
Heating at 1600 F followed by an oil quench will harden the 4130 alloy. For best results a normalizing pre-hardening heat treatment may be used at 1650 to 1700 F followed by the 1600 F soak and oil quench. It should then be cooled in the furnace at a rate of less than 50 F per hour down to 900 F, followed by air cool

ANOTHER:
Heat Treated:
For 4130 steel this refers to the way the steel was processed.
It can be used as:
1. Normalized (as is the case most frequently) where the tubing is heated above 1600 degs F and cooled relatively slowly achieving a tough structure with a tensile strength about 95,000 psi
2. Quenched from 1600 degs F forming Martensite with a strength of about 240 to 250,000 psi but very brittle
3. Quenched and subsequently tempered most commonly for structural tubing reheated to around 1050 degs F and allowed to cool slowly producing a moderately tough material with a tensile strength of 140,000 to 150,000 psi

ANOTHER
AISI 4130 can be heated as a way to harden the material. When hardening is desired, the material should be heated at a minimum of 1600 degrees F. followed by an oil quench. The best results can be obtained when heating occurs between 1650 and 1700 degrees, followed by an oil quench and soak of 1600 degrees.
 

Ron Lombardo

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... i guess what we are sending to WAR .. we are using the incorrect methods ... i will have to tell the soldiers to send back the 5000 tripods we are sending them per month ... which are 4130 pre heated, welded, and quenched and cooled down slowly in a furnace. This is the spec we use for a tubing application as dicated by the goverment. This is the correct spec

... as i said prior whats done in your garage, or local welder, sprint car builder, might not need the strength or they you might not know the spec and your putting your life in their hands ... but I would check if i were driving the motor cycle, sprint car, airplane ... because your defeating the purpose of using Chromoly 4130 and then the welds are of lesser strength ?

Gents thanks for the entertainment, but i have better things to do then debate this .. its obvious the welding spec has been diluted to meet your needs.

R
 

NASTYZEN

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Different specs for different applications from structural to die making.You can't heat treat everything to 54 on the Rockwell C scale.
Many moons ago when I was still learning( well I'm still learning). Made a bunch of suspension arms for the March Wildcat Indy lights guys. I had them all heat stress relived tempered, they were strong.......so strong that in a crash they would survive............but punch big holes in the expensive carbon fiber tubs. Ooops!!
Strait tig weld everything no temper no pre heat no stress relive no more problem.
 

Ron Lombardo

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My point is to know what the correct welding procedure is for 4130 ... then I think you need to get out of your garage, off your high horse and read the ASME SPEC for the proper way to weld 4130. So many times people think whats posted on forums and posted on interent is whats correct .. its not.

I will agree there are many ASME Welding Procedures for each Welding application ...

Ron
 
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ZTFab

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Different specs for different applications from structural to die making.You can't heat treat everything to 54 on the Rockwell C scale.

Nastyzen you hit the nail on the head.

Application specific welding procedures. There is no "be all, end all" welding procedure for any material or alloy. There are basic rules to follow but the procedure may change based on what you are building.

The entire structure/part/weldment has to be looked at and analyzed as to what it's intended use, serviceability, and lifespan will be.

If the part requires heat treat for it's intended use, then there is a procedure for that.

If the part is to be used in it's "as welded" state then there is a procedure for that.

The wrong filler wire for a part that is to be heat treated could be detrimental....the same goes for using the wrong filler for a part that won't be heat treated.

Will the part be made with the material in the annealed, normalized, or quenched and tempered state?

How much distortion will the part have once it has been heat treated and quenched?
 

ibedayank

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cycle frames have been BRAZED for over 100 years...and some are still being brazed...

when in doubt silver solder or braze the parts to the frame
 

hunter1151

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This on going argument over 4130 is apples and oranges. Rob you need to re-read the statements you made at the beginning about quenching 4130 in water...........I build stuff for the DLA so I know a little bit about heat treating lots of different materials (everything we do requires,certs for materials and certs on all testing and certs on all processing). Building parts for aircraft and other mission specific items, have all been thoroughly tested and engineered. (they know what they want).

Welding on race cars, dune buggies and other things made of 4130 or other similar alloys is another matter entirely. ZT is an excellent welder and has a good knowlege of what he does. As far as his style of welding with a mig, only mag-particle testing, xray, or pull testing would verify whether the strength of his welds for a given application is appropriate. I can't imagine any testing body not passing his tig welding on any level....it is perfection. I have only seen one other example of tig welding that would come close, and it came from the Nissan GTP program out of Calif. I knew a guy who worked there (Pat Foster) the former and now deceased funny car driver. He said the guy was a freak........took him 8 hrs to set up and weld something, but it was perfect. Anyway.........most production motorcycles look to be mig welded together. If they are 4130 and they don't get stress relieved after welding there's a good chance on ocassion they would be subject to cracking. This case involves an exhaust pipe mount that has broken off.......imagine that, the engine that turns up in the trees has caused a bracket to break off. The fix is simple, you could mig it, tig it, braze it or gas weld it, how long will that last, who really knows. To suggest that you have to "field" heat treat 4130 after welding it would be a wild assed guess and could certainly cause more problems.
 

Spectre32

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Being a welding engineer I opted to stay out of this as it isnt really my application base. Garage welding and in the field/fab welding is way different. Many more rules and regualtions provided by the applicable construction codes. Im sure that there is more than one way to skin a cat here. I would be corious to know what ASME Spec you are referring to. I'm not sure if there if a nomenclature issue here or not but most of the time when some one refers to an ASME Spec is The ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code(BPV) Like Section IX or VIII.
 
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wfopete

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Well guys I want to thank you all for your input. I think the title for this thread really took off.

Anyway thanks again, can't wait to take this frame to my welding buddy and get his feedback. :beer:
 
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