Western Forge laying off 150+

[hangfirew8]

Oh, look. Adam calls for US tool maker innovation, then slams SK (again) for innovating in a manner different than SO.

The only problem with the X Frame is availability (and the second letter is K not O).

-HF

 

[jhnlngn]

So isn't that what Harbor Freight is doing? They have a SO copy and offer a couple of handles (they could do a LOT more with that). But you think WF could do the same thing and COMPETE when HF is offering basically that for $20.00...and the HF Snap On copies are damn good ratchets. I'm not saying it's completely non-doable, but I can think of WAY better ways to try to make money if I own a forging firm.

And yeah, I'm with you on the SK wrenches. I have a set of their long pattern wrenches, which are basically analogs to 20 years ago Snap On standard length wrenches. They're great wrenches and I've been VERY happy with them. But I bought them over 20 years ago when they honestly matched the Snap On for much less money. Today, they're WAY behind. The Super Chrome wrenches are damn near stubbies in comparison to most other makes unless you get the "long pattern" which makes them similar in length to a Snap On. But SK still doesn't offer an anti slip design when pretty much every other US maker does. Yeah I know one is in the works, but Good LAWD, how long does it take? It's a new set of broaches, and no that's not crippling expensive...freaking get on it for crying out loud. I've heard complaints about the wide hips on the box end, but in over 20 years that has NEVER been an issue to me, and it makes SK's wrenches a little distinctive, so personally I'd keep it.

But if I were to find out that a significant part of the buying public isn't buying because of the Kim Kardashian hips, then you either lose them, or offer a model without that "feature".

To be honest, I think even Snap On's days are numbered unless they can get a little love from Congress...and since Snap On's not nearly big enough to lobby for that, it's only a matter of time until someone does US R&D and then out-sources their manufacturing to the Pacific Rim, and then manages to market as effectively as Snap On does.

Then again, Snap-on is probably trying to come up with a design that doesn't infringe on anyone's patents. Things like that aren't a concern in China. Let others pay for the R&D and then just copy it. Another great way to keep costs down. lol At least Germany isn't allowing them to sell their clones of German cars in Germany.

 

[PJNJ]

Oh, look. Adam calls for US tool maker innovation, then slams SK (again) for innovating in a manner different than SO.

The only problem with the X Frame is availability (and the second letter is K not O).

-HF

And you were expecting to hear anything different from Adam.C?

 

[SK Eric]

I just read through this whole thread and was impressed by many posts and amused by others. Adam C. continues to amaze as he tries to beat his drum against anything S·K, WF, or Ideal. Ironically, the tags at the bottom of the thread read: adam the pontificator, adam walks on water, adamc says sk bad!, adams snap on soapbox, adams time of the month, i'm adam.c so listen up. He's going with the if-I-spend-more-time-filling-the-internet-with-my-bilge-it-makes-me-an-expert technique.

As many have pointed out, Sears has been an important customer of WF, and are in big trouble, without a clear turn-around plan. I wish it weren't so, because it's one of the great American legacies. IDEAL understood that this was a distinct possibility when they purchased WF in 2010, and modeled the financial calculation accordingly. Unfortunately, Eddie and Co. have accelerated the downfall of Sears faster than WF had anticipated. Plans are in place to replace the business: WF isn't going anywhere.

The plan is to keep the hammers humming at full steam and minimize the reduction in force. The WARN notification is a compliance issue that is necessary to cover the legal bases in the event that something dire happens to a very important customer.

Someone posted a picture of the new IDEAL plant under construction as the reason for a potential RIF at Western Forge. They should have interpreted the construction of the new plant as evidence of the financial health of the company, and the commitment to keeping manufacturing of tools and supplies in the USA. It's not only good for the USA, we believe it's good business.

 

[Super Sport]

Wah, wah wah!

American workers are losing jobs.....

They should be.

If their skill set and technology and pricing don't match people elsewhere, then they don't deserve to have those jobs. In fact those jobs should not exist.

The problem isn't just workers' wages. It's environmental, worker's safety, etc. Developing countries don't care about any of that. Their workers work in labor camps, making nearly nothing in unsafe conditions. Pollution is rampant.

You're right, we can't compete with that. But we can chose whether or not to support it.

 

[HanShotFirst]

Then again, Snap-on is probably trying to come up with a design that doesn't infringe on anyone's patents. Things like that aren't a concern in China. Let others pay for the R&D and then just copy it. Another great way to keep costs down. lol At least Germany isn't allowing them to sell their clones of German cars in Germany.

Excellent point, just one more way America doesn't look after its own unless you can afford a lobbyist, but Germany does.

 

[1982fxr]

I just read through this whole thread and was impressed by many posts and amused by others. Adam C. continues to amaze as he tries to beat his drum against anything S·K, WF, or Ideal. Ironically, the tags at the bottom of the thread read: adam the pontificator, adam walks on water, adamc says sk bad!, adams snap on soapbox, adams time of the month, i'm adam.c so listen up. He's going with the if-I-spend-more-time-filling-the-internet-with-my-bilge-it-makes-me-an-expert technique.

As many have pointed out, Sears has been an important customer of WF, and are in big trouble, without a clear turn-around plan. I wish it weren't so, because it's one of the great American legacies. IDEAL understood that this was a distinct possibility when they purchased WF in 2010, and modeled the financial calculation accordingly. Unfortunately, Eddie and Co. have accelerated the downfall of Sears faster than WF had anticipated. Plans are in place to replace the business: WF isn't going anywhere.

The plan is to keep the hammers humming at full steam and minimize the reduction in force. The WARN notification is a compliance issue that is necessary to cover the legal bases in the event that something dire happens to WF's biggest customer.

Someone posted a picture of the new IDEAL plant under construction as the reason for a potential RIF at Western Forge. They should have interpreted the construction of the new plant as evidence of the financial health of the company, and the commitment to keeping manufacturing of tools and supplies in the USA. It's not only good for the USA, we believe it's good business.

Thank you.

Now will someone please close this *************.

 

[DekeT]

I'm still reflecting on Donald Trump's Tax Plan from yesterday, may or may not bring jobs back here. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if companies permanently outsource themselves all together as Trump wants to close the gap on the loopholes.

 

[HanShotFirst]

When it comes to the fallacy of the magic of markets and how it doesn't jive with what is observed by macroeconomics, one thing you don't see mentioned much is the manipulation of said markets. It's not news that both the Chinese and Japanese governments, for example, greatly subsidize their industries by manipulating currency among other things. That makes it almost impossible for American manufacturers to compete. Like you said, it comes back to the workers. By any measure the American worker has been taking it in the rear end for 35+ years now. How weak can you make the middle class before you no longer have a functioning society?

I know I am much different then the average US consumer. I will not buy anything from China unless I have absolutely no choice. I feel I have to shop with my conscious. In no way, shape or form do I want to support a totalitarian government with a dubious human rights record. I will go out of my way to pay more for something that I know is made responsibly, both to the worker and the environment. I am not interested in being part of the throw away society. If I currently can't afford that product then I go without it until I can. I am totally fed up with seeing things that I used to buy that were made here get outsourced and the price is the same or higher.

What is interesting is that we are starting to things change and a market come back around for quality 1st world made items. Coincidentally, the shoes I wear were made on a last by a cobbler. There's a huge market for denim made on pre-war looms, cut and sewn by hand by Americans on 60+ year old Singer sewing machines. Sure it's not a Walmart sized market, but it's a market that didn't even exist 10-15 years ago. It's exciting to see not every decision fueled by greed.

Very nice post.

One correction...it is an official US policy to de-value the dollar by 1-3% annually, so it's not just China and Japan that play that game. This year is one year that's a real exception with the decline in oil and gold markets; we can't manipulate fast enough to keep up, so the dollar makes a huge jump in value this year whether we like it or not. Nice for domestic consumers, but it will spank the export market pretty bad.

 

[Parrothead]

I don't believe PR has ever made Craftsman screwdrivers. AFAIK, they have always been made by WF, in all variations.

Although both are now owned by Ideal. I wouldn't be surprised if they were consolidating production, especially after losing Craftsman contracts.

I have several CMan screwdrivers with the "PR" stamping on them.

I have an 8 pc. set of the Craftsman PR at home in the house tool box.

 

[jhnlngn]

Very nice post.

One correction...it is an official US policy to de-value the dollar by 1-3% annually, so it's not just China and Japan that play that game. This year is one year that's a real exception with the decline in oil and gold markets; we can't manipulate fast enough to keep up, so the dollar makes a huge jump in value this year whether we like it or not. Nice for domestic consumers, but it will spank the export market pretty bad.

Very true, but not to the level that China has devalued the yuan. They seem to only let it appreciate when they are pressured.

 

[jhnlngn]

The problem isn't just workers' wages. It's environmental, worker's safety, etc. Developing countries don't care about any of that. Their workers work in labor camps, making nearly nothing in unsafe conditions. Pollution is rampant.

You're right, we can't compete with that. But we can chose whether or not to support it.

Exactly my feelings on it.

 

[jhnlngn]

I just read through this whole thread and was impressed by many posts and amused by others. Adam C. continues to amaze as he tries to beat his drum against anything S·K, WF, or Ideal. Ironically, the tags at the bottom of the thread read: adam the pontificator, adam walks on water, adamc says sk bad!, adams snap on soapbox, adams time of the month, i'm adam.c so listen up. He's going with the if-I-spend-more-time-filling-the-internet-with-my-bilge-it-makes-me-an-expert technique.

As many have pointed out, Sears has been an important customer of WF, and are in big trouble, without a clear turn-around plan. I wish it weren't so, because it's one of the great American legacies. IDEAL understood that this was a distinct possibility when they purchased WF in 2010, and modeled the financial calculation accordingly. Unfortunately, Eddie and Co. have accelerated the downfall of Sears faster than WF had anticipated. Plans are in place to replace the business: WF isn't going anywhere.

The plan is to keep the hammers humming at full steam and minimize the reduction in force. The WARN notification is a compliance issue that is necessary to cover the legal bases in the event that something dire happens to a very important customer.

Someone posted a picture of the new IDEAL plant under construction as the reason for a potential RIF at Western Forge. They should have interpreted the construction of the new plant as evidence of the financial health of the company, and the commitment to keeping manufacturing of tools and supplies in the USA. It's not only good for the USA, we believe it's good business.

What is it going to take for the board to dump Eddie? He must be the most clueless CEO out there. Not that he really cares. He'll burn it down to the ground and walk away with a golden parachute while all the workers look for jobs to feed their families.

 

[Loscaldazar]

As many have pointed out, Sears has been an important customer of WF, and are in big trouble, without a clear turn-around plan. I wish it weren't so, because it's one of the great American legacies. IDEAL understood that this was a distinct possibility when they purchased WF in 2010, and modeled the financial calculation accordingly. Unfortunately, Eddie and Co. have accelerated the downfall of Sears faster than WF had anticipated. Plans are in place to replace the business: WF isn't going anywhere.

Good to hear. I know this something that appears on this board every once in a while (the fate of WF when Sears either collapses or outsources the pliers/punches/screwdrivers).

I'm just waiting until someone takes this info and starts a thread about how this means sears is going to shut down in a few weeks!

 

[Tellingthem]

"Put down the kool aid, read what I'm writing and do something about it if you can. Its good advice."

Heh...you know more about tools and manufacturing than ideal.The company that bought SK, Pratt-Read and western forge. And is building a giant new factory in America. But they should listen to you. Because you know more about tools and manufacturing then them...

 

[PJNJ]

Did you even read what I wrote? Or did you skim it. Tell the truth...

"Old SK invented the round head ratchet in like 1930, then went engineering silent for 80 years. Imagine that- no development in 80 years."

That musta hurt your feelings. Oh, wait a minute, different company. Never mind.

"Quirky, gimmicky tools (x-wrench) worked okay for Sears."

Yeah, I don't love the x-wrench, but does anybody seriously think it's NOT quirky? Gimmicky, come on, "we've got 6 pawls where others have 2!" Its gimmicky. And I'm saying these sorts of tools worked in the past. This isn't exactly a slam either.

How about this slam on SK:

"I'm hesitant to buy more low height sockets because Snap On's don't fit on their normal ratchets and so far Snap on hasn't made any more ratchets to go with them. This is easy pickens for new SK or Western Forge, (or Koken)."

You are doing your company no favors, Eric. For every low IQ tag writing troll, there's a dozen guys here who agree with me. Put down the kool aid, read what I'm writing and do something about it if you can. Its good advice. I'm actually on your side.

Yeah Eric, put down your "koolaid" and drink Adam.C's koolaid.
There are literally "dozens" of guys on a tool forum that agree with everything he says. And you know "guys" on a tool forum know much, much more than everyone involved in the tool making business. Why can't you see that one ultimate fact?

And frankly all of us are starting to get upset that you and every other company (except for Snap On - they are already perfect) have not hired Adam.C to be the Tool Makers "Czar" in charge of all things tool related.
And remember what he says is "good advice" and he is "actually on your side".

Adam.C is starting to sound like Cartman on South Park - it probably won't be long before you hear - "Reeespect my authoritay".

 

[182RG]

It occurs to me that the biggest problem is that people don't go to Sears like they used to. When I was a kid, we bought EVERYTHING from Sears. Not just Craftsman tools. I'm talking Kenmore appliances, Sears televisions, Free Spirit bicycles, my mom even made us wear those Godawful Toughskin jeans. My original Atari 2600 didn't even say Atari on it. It said "Sears"...as they had that much marketing clout. The nearest Sears store was 60 miles away, but we had a catalog store in our little town that you could buy ANYTHING Sears sold in. You just had to wait about 10 days, they'd call you and you'd go pick it up.

Your post was a trip down memory lane. Growing up in north central Ohio in the 60s and 70s was the same. Catalog stores, the local auto parts / hardware store, old fashioned car and tractor dealerships. No Walmart, Home Depot, or Amazon. Things made in Japan / China were the poor quality die cast metal toys at the 5 and dime.

Everything in our house said Sears, Craftsman, or Kenmore.



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[d.mcfarland]

Adam.C is on a Koken kick in this thread, but even he can out engineer them. Duh.

The layoffs are a direct correlation to Sears moving production, as well as Husky etc. I can only speculate.

 

[rice rocket]

So what's really at play here? Why is Ideal shuttering one plant, and opening a brand new one instead? Seems like a waste of money?

 

[defektes]

Adam.C is on a Koken kick in this thread, but even he can out engineer them. Duh.

The layoffs are a direct correlation to Sears moving production, as well as Husky etc. I can only speculate.

SK rep confirmed that's a factor, read above.

Thanks sears for importing CMan, and thanks everyone that purchased Chinese craftsman products for the loss of 150 jobs. (additional jobs might I add, do we even know how many more were lost over at Apex, and the other suppliers?)

And they are not shuttering the plant, not yet at least.

 

[Brownsfan]

I wonder if this is the final nail in USA made Craftsman tools. I don't think 150 were making wood chisels. So will we be seeing China made pliers, screwdrivers adjustable wrenches soon. I posted about the China nut drivers which I don't think are made by WF so the other stuff is not out of the realm of possibilities. I hope maybe SK or Ideal get picked up by a big store to get those orders back up and those people can get back to work.

 

[nine4gmc]

Louisiana Workforce Commission announced that Magellan Health plans to downsize Louisiana Care Management center and 80 people will be laid off. Anyone want to blame Sears for that too? Some of you guys need to get a life. Businesses rise and fall every day, it's just the nature of the beast. Only the rare few will be around for real long periods, I can't see CocaCola or Miller Lite shutting down any time soon but they too have built plants that have been shut down and people lost jobs just the same.

Humans are nomadic by nature and to settle down, get a job and live somewhere for the rest of their lives is somewhat new to our species. It will not work for everyone, only a few, everyone else needs to be ready to move when the time comes.

 

[AceofSpad3s]

I wonder if this is the final nail in USA made Craftsman tools. I don't think 150 were making wood chisels. So will we be seeing China made pliers, screwdrivers adjustable wrenches soon. I posted about the China nut drivers which I don't think are made by WF so the other stuff is not out of the realm of possibilities. I hope maybe SK or Ideal get picked up by a big store to get those orders back up and those people can get back to work.

Still a few stragglers, mainly the Vaughn made hammers.

 

[justanengineer]

Louisiana Workforce Commission announced that Magellan Health plans to downsize Louisiana Care Management center and 80 people will be laid off. Anyone want to blame Sears for that too? Some of you guys need to get a life. Businesses rise and fall every day, it's just the nature of the beast. Only the rare few will be around for real long periods, I can't see CocaCola or Miller Lite shutting down any time soon but they too have built plants that have been shut down and people lost jobs just the same.

Ha! I was going to say theyre only letting 150 go? Shucks, I know plants thatve been doing that almost weekly for more than a year now. Around these parts every industry's hurting, sadly I bet some of these fellas heads are so deep in the sand they actually believe the politicians about how "great" the economy's doing and how "low" the unemployment rate is.

 

[defektes]

Ha! I was going to say theyre only letting 150 go? Shucks, I know plants thatve been doing that almost weekly for more than a year now. Around these parts every industry's hurting, sadly I bet some of these fellas heads are so deep in the sand they actually believe the politicians about how "great" the economy's doing and how "low" the unemployment rate is.

More than 150 if you think about it, what about the contractors that come in to work on the equipment, the suppliers that supplied the steel, they will be effected also, the truckers that would ship the finished product, will all see a decline in business.

 

[organ]

The companies who supplied Craftsman are all in trouble. Craftsman is going away or at least, the marketing that made Craftsman successful is going away.

Companies like the old SK who were surviving on their Craftsman contracts, needed to invest their profits into making better products for when the famine came. They didn't. They pocketed the profits, invested nothing, and now they are no more. Are we supposed to shed a tear for them?

The US auto industry did the exact same thing. They made gobs of money in the post war years. They cornered the market in heavy industrial manufaturing. But as times changed, markets changed, competition increased and the cost of fuel increased, they failed or refused to change.

Western Forge has been making the same ****** screwdrivers for like 30 years. Craftsman's demise was easily predicted. Where is their research? What have they patented?

Old SK invented the round head ratchet in like 1930, then went engineering silent for 80 years. Imagine that- no development in 80 years. Meanwhile companies like Koken are patenting new types of sockets, innovating extensions, anticipating future demands for low access tooling.

Nobody can compete with Snap On. But at least take a page out of their playbook. Do some research before you turn an engineer loose with a CAD package and say "design something cool looking (x-wrench)". Snap On researches, protoypes, tests, conducts market studies, on a scale no one can compete with. But Koken doesn't have their cash. Nor did Gearwrench when they started.

Quirky, gimmicky tools (x-wrench) worked okay for Sears. Wives and daughters bought that stuff for Dads and husbands while they were at the mall. That flashy impulse buy is over. Internet shoppers are all about finding the lowest price. If you want to charge more, you've got to sell your stuff.

All the second tier US tool manufacturers are in trouble. Its 1970's Detroit all over again. Asian makers are supplying decent quality at low prices. I hear the same "buy American" pleas I heard then. It didn't work then and won't work now. If US businesses want to survive, they have to produce high quality, innovative products at the right price.

You are the worst tool Snap-on ever produced...

 

[PJNJ]

....... So whoever can do the job for me for the best price, at the level of quality I desire, gets the job. People on the forum are as price and quality conscious as anyone. Imagine a world where no tools whatsoever were made here, but the very same tools as exist now, were still made with the same quality, for the same prices, on the same terms.

That would still work fine. The people here that used to manufacture those tools would have to find other work, retire or die.

The world would still turn. This country would still exist and thrive.

Bill

What a remarkably callous statement. So people should just "die" if they can't retire or find work to replace their lost job? Wow!

 

[nine4gmc]

You are the worst tool Snap-on ever produced...

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[AceofSpad3s]

You are the worst tool Snap-on ever produced...

 

[nine4gmc]

What a remarkably callous statement. So people should just "die" if they can't retire or find work to replace their lost job? Wow!

He never said "should die", that's your words. He said retire, find work or die which is probably what would happen if you can't find work or retire. Survival of the fittest, but even the most fit will one day be out of shape, then die.



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[SMKS]

You are the worst tool Snap-on ever produced...

I laughed hard at this.

 

[jrobb316]

What a remarkably callous statement. So people should just "die" if they can't retire or find work to replace their lost job? Wow!

Yeah that got me too. From a guy who drives a Pontiac 6000 around Detroit and can't afford anything except HF tools. Manufacturing is the backbone of any country, surprised he didn't know that.

 

[PJNJ]

He never said "should die", that's your words. He said retire, find work or die which is probably what would happen if you can't find work or retire. Survival of the fittest, but even the most fit will one day be out of shape, then die.


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No matter how you couch it, it is still a terrible thing to say. And survival of the fittest ended a long time ago - hence Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, unemployment insurance, disability insurance as a few examples.

 

[nine4gmc]

Ah, social security... Another failing concept that will not only put a lot of people out of work, it will affect a lot of people that are already out of work... Survival of the fittest has not ended, it's just changed its appearance. It's still alive and kicking...


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[PJNJ]

Ah, social security... Another failing concept that will not only put a lot of people out of work, it will affect a lot of people that are already out of work... Survival of the fittest has not ended, it's just changed its appearance. It's still alive and kicking...


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No it hasn't but it's okay with me if you wish to think so.

 

[sberry]

I am not buying more no matter how "innovative" it is. We deride Cman for gimmicks and then want more from Snap or SK?

 

[bczygan]

Interesting:
http://www.epi.org/publication/the-manufacturing-footprint-and-the-importance-of-u-s-manufacturing-jobs/

 

[winlinmac]

It's going to take a while to undo the damage caused by job losses. I'm not sure if me buying truck brands off ebay does any good for American Jobs Growth

Interesting:
http://www.epi.org/publication/the-manufacturing-footprint-and-the-importance-of-u-s-manufacturing-jobs/