Western Forge laying off 150+

[bfm336]

Apologies if dup'd, didn't come up in search. Someone else posted the link in a sub-forum but there was no discussion:
http://www.dailyjournal.net/view/story/7d0030c5e35a42e593810448e8b4e678/CO--Western-Forge-Layoffs

WOW, 150 to be gone from WF (about half its workforce), one may guess likely due to Sear's moving production to China. The nut drivers went offshore recently, and now I'm concerned about their cheaper acetate screwdrivers and pliers heading out. Bummer news all the way around. Being owned by Ideal I hope this doesn't translate anything to SK, but I imagine Sears is the culprit.

 

[jcfields]

In spite of the having the same handles as the screwdrivers, the nutdrivers were made by Danaher/Apex. I wrote a post about it here that offers an explanation for the handles.

The wood chisels and gear pullers made by Western Forge for Craftsman were outsourced recently, though. And they no longer produce the Craftsman Professional and Husky Pro screwdrivers.

I'm sure it's Sears' fault some way or another.

I'm sure those 150 workers can just move to China so they can enjoy the fruits of the global economy the same way the owners of capital do.

 

[AA/FC]

I hate hearing this!

I was just in a discussion earlier tonight in another thread about "Milwaukee wrenches might be better than channel lock brand". I was trying to defend the USA brand and one of the reasons (other than quality) was the American worker. The other GJ member I was discussing this with insisted that the foreign made tools MIGHT be just as good as the USA stuff. Or better. The fact that buying those foreign tools might effect the the jobs of American workers seemed irrelevant to this particular GJ member. Then, a few hours later this thread is posted..... perfect example. Unfortunately.

 

[1950mercury]

Does anyone have proof to who ended the contracts sears or ideal?

 

[Wamsutta]

The Western Forge made nutdrivers were one of the few tools I liked at Sears. About the only thing left are the Stride-Imperial made wire strippers and I should get over there before Sears decides to discontinue them too.

 

[jrobb316]

With HF who needs WF?? Why would you spend $3 extra on a pair of pliers to keep your neighbor working? It doesn't matter, if someone is reading this and still doesn't get why it's important to spend your money locally or nationally, they're most likely brain dead and deserve everything they're going to get when the ship goes down. Maybe they will care when it's their job or livelihood in jeopardy.

 

[DekeT]

I hate hearing this!

I was just in a discussion earlier tonight in another thread about "Milwaukee wrenches might be better than channel lock brand". I was trying to defend the USA brand and one of the reasons (other than quality) was the American worker. The other GJ member I was discussing this with insisted that the foreign made tools MIGHT be just as good as the USA stuff. Or better. The fact that buying those foreign tools might effect the the jobs of American workers seemed irrelevant to this particular GJ member. Then, a few hours later this thread is posted..... perfect example. Unfortunately.

The effect on American jobs is irrelevant is determining the quality of a tool.

 

[Fedwrench]

I'm guessing that either they've already made all of the Christmas specials for Sears or that they'll be foreign made this year.

 

[Ponchoguy]

The companies who supplied Craftsman are all in trouble. Craftsman is going away or at least, the marketing that made Craftsman successful is going away.

Companies like the old SK who were surviving on their Craftsman contracts, needed to invest their profits into making better products for when the famine came. They didn't. They pocketed the profits, invested nothing, and now they are no more. Are we supposed to shed a tear for them?

The US auto industry did the exact same thing. They made gobs of money in the post war years. They cornered the market in heavy industrial manufaturing. But as times changed, markets changed, competition increased and the cost of fuel increased, they failed or refused to change.

Western Forge has been making the same ****** screwdrivers for like 30 years. Craftsman's demise was easily predicted. Where is their research? What have they patented?

Old SK invented the round head ratchet in like 1930, then went engineering silent for 80 years. Imagine that- no development in 80 years. Meanwhile companies like Koken are patenting new types of sockets, innovating extensions, anticipating future demands for low access tooling.

Nobody can compete with Snap On. But at least take a page out of their playbook. Do some research before you turn an engineer loose with a CAD package and say "design something cool looking (x-wrench)". Snap On researches, protoypes, tests, conducts market studies, on a scale no one can compete with. But Koken doesn't have their cash. Nor did Gearwrench when they started.

Quirky, gimmicky tools (x-wrench) worked okay for Sears. Wives and daughters bought that stuff for Dads and husbands while they were at the mall. That flashy impulse buy is over. Internet shoppers are all about finding the lowest price. If you want to charge more, you've got to sell your stuff.

All the second tier US tool manufacturers are in trouble. Its 1970's Detroit all over again. Asian makers are supplying decent quality at low prices. I hear the same "buy American" pleas I heard then. It didn't work then and won't work now. If US businesses want to survive, they have to produce high quality, innovative products at the right price.

Snap On has competiton or they wouldn't have Blue Point among other lines within their umbrella. Even in the professional lines, their lunch has been eaten over the years.

If you don't have competition today, you will tomorrow. No one holds onto that advantage forever. Snap On surely hasn't.

I would say that Sears was myopic, much the way GM was like you said. I believe there is a market for USA made Sears tools, I just don't think Sears markets them right.

 

[LB-1911]

This might have something to do w/it.

SK's parent company, Ideal Industries is building a new factory right in our back yard. It will be approximately 240,000 square feet and allow us to continue to repatriate the manufacturing of Ideal products. Here are a couple of iPhone pics I tool last week.

https://scontent-iad3-1.**.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/11846630_1067275999957242_402596132055072202_n.jpg?oh=a31fe9cb95ef5b996e1acc6a51e33ee4&oe=567584B5

And the requisite Pano:

https://scontent-iad3-1.**.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11918934_1073848655966643_2677008378581662457_n.jpg?oh=a23a90cdb5a5feb471b8c27245dde7cb&oe=56384E0C

Completion is scheduled for the end of the year, with manufacturing beginning immediately.[/QUOTE]

 

[HoosierBuddy]

It occurs to me that the biggest problem is that people don't go to Sears like they used to. When I was a kid, we bought EVERYTHING from Sears. Not just Craftsman tools. I'm talking Kenmore appliances, Sears televisions, Free Spirit bicycles, my mom even made us wear those Godawful Toughskin jeans. My original Atari 2600 didn't even say Atari on it. It said "Sears"...as they had that much marketing clout. The nearest Sears store was 60 miles away, but we had a catalog store in our little town that you could buy ANYTHING Sears sold in. You just had to wait about 10 days, they'd call you and you'd go pick it up.

Fast forward to today. I haven't been in a Sears in over a year. I wouldn't even consider buying a Kenmore appliance. I doubt they even make Free Spirit bikes (although they still sell those stiff kneed, Forrest-Gump-in-braces jeans). Sears is just a husk of its former self and has been jettisoning cash for years (especially after the major FU of buying Kmart). Their stock's in the toilet, down 57% in the last 5 years.

What did them in? We did them in. The american consumer did them in. We voted with our feet by the millions and took our business first to their competitors (Walmart for one) and then to the internet. Meanwhile, Sears seems to have made about every boneheaded decision they could have trying to catch up...and they haven't been able to.

I personally have a lot of nostalgia for Sears. That's where I bought my first BB gun. My first bike. My first tools. Got my first credit card. Heck, I bought my first homeowners insurance at the Sears Store. I wish them well. But the business side of my brain sees no hope for them. They are on borrowed time, I'm afraid. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

I'd rather buy a pair of Toughskin Jeans than stock in their company today. And you know how much I like those jeans. So, regardless of who makes Craftsman tools, it sort of doesn't matter. Because people, by-and large, don't shop at Sears anymore.

Phil

 

[fatfillup]

That is sad news. We need to figure out how to get America working again.

 

[Ponchoguy]

It occurs to me that the biggest problem is that people don't go to Sears like they used to. When I was a kid, we bought EVERYTHING from Sears. Not just Craftsman tools. I'm talking Kenmore appliances, Sears televisions, Free Spirit bicycles, my mom even made us wear those Godawful Toughskin jeans. My original Atari 2600 didn't even say Atari on it. It said "Sears"...as they had that much marketing clout. The nearest Sears store was 60 miles away, but we had a catalog store in our little town that you could buy ANYTHING Sears sold in. You just had to wait about 10 days, they'd call you and you'd go pick it up.

Fast forward to today. I haven't been in a Sears in over a year. I wouldn't even consider buying a Kenmore appliance. I doubt they even make Free Spirit bikes (although they still sell those stiff kneed, Forrest-Gump-in-braces jeans). Sears is just a husk of its former self and has been jettisoning cash for years (especially after the major FU of buying Kmart). Their stock's in the toilet, down 57% in the last 5 years.

What did them in? We did them in. The american consumer did them in. We voted with our feet by the millions and took our business first to their competitors (Walmart for one) and then to the internet. Meanwhile, Sears seems to have made about every boneheaded decision they could have trying to catch up...and they haven't been able to.

I personally have a lot of nostalgia for Sears. That's where I bought my first BB gun. My first bike. My first tools. Got my first credit card. Heck, I bought my first homeowners insurance at the Sears Store. I wish them well. But the business side of my brain sees no hope for them. They are on borrowed time, I'm afraid. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

I'd rather buy a pair of Toughskin Jeans than stock in their company today. And you know how much I like those jeans.

Phil

You're right and spot on. Factories and companies were created around Sears contracts. Dedicated personnel were put in place for Sears contracts. Company production and expansion was centered around a Sears contract. Getting one was gold back in the day. Losing one was a big deal in their world.

Sears invested money in some of their vendors, such as Whirlpool who made (and still does) a great deal of their appliances. But, others have beat them out on some models.

I hope that we will continue to see the Sears Craftsman brand. It would be great to see it live on....

 

[Burgerkong]

......The spin socket is a perfect ...iously wind up a rope on a socket like a top.

 

[sselander]

I wonder how this ties in with Pratt-Read who also made Craftsman screwdrivers.
They are also owned by Ideal now, having left Connecticut.
Their currnt location is now Sycamore, Illinois (same as S-K)

http://www.prattread.com/

 

[Davefr]

I hope that we will continue to see the Sears Craftsman brand. It would be great to see it live on....

Unless the CM brand represents high quality mainstream tools at prices average consumers can pay then it can go to hell.

I'd rather appreciate the older CM tools then see the brand bastardised for no name Chinese tools. (like has been so common these days).

COO does not have to be US across all SKUs.

 

[honcho]

The loss of decent jobs to our fellow citizens should trouble all of us. We all love low prices, high quality, good jobs, good benefits, low taxes, good schools, good roads, nice retirement plans and on and on and on. Unfortunately, we can't have it all. Globalization, cutthroat free markets, internet commerce, and much more surely have factored into how Ideal is structuring its business units.

If one of us were the boss at Ideal, we might make similar decisions. Heck, we might make WORSE decisions for the business and employees. It's easy to be an armchair quarterback but the terrain often looks different when you're in the middle of things.

So what to do? Vote with our dollars where we can. Buy American if that's what you support. Be glad that Ideal is continuing to invest in the USA, even if 150 good people are losing their jobs.

 

[Ign]

The loss of decent jobs to our fellow citizens should trouble all of us. We all love low prices, high quality, good jobs, good benefits, low taxes, good schools, good roads, nice retirement plans and on and on and on. Unfortunately, we can't have it all. Globalization, cutthroat free markets, internet commerce, and much more surely have factored into how Ideal is structuring its business units.

If one of us were the boss at Ideal, we might make similar decisions. Heck, we might make WORSE decisions for the business and employees. It's easy to be an armchair quarterback but the terrain often looks different when you're in the middle of things.

So what to do? Vote with our dollars where we can. Buy American if that's what you support. Be glad that Ideal is continuing to invest in the USA, even if 150 good people are losing their jobs.

AGREED, but US quality must be comparable or greater, too. The auto industry tried pleas of "Buy us 'cause we're domestic" while still producing rear-drive carbureted vehicles. It didn't work out to well, and only in the last ~15 years did the domestics figure out they had to up quality (among other things, like ability to quickly switch a production line from Product A to Product B) considerably.

Motorola tried the same play in the late '90's: "Hey, help us out, we're in the US." But none of their electronics tended to work for more than a few days.

The free market, by its very nature, dictates that inferior products fall by the wayside.

WF closed their plant in Pueblo CO a long time ago. It hurt the economy, but does anyone TRULY care if the Craftsman RP (raised panel) wrench goes away forever????
edit: layoffs, not closed

 

[Super Sport]

I wonder how this ties in with Pratt-Read who also made Craftsman screwdrivers.
They are also owned by Ideal now, having left Connecticut.
Their currnt location is now Sycamore, Illinois (same as S-K)

http://www.prattread.com/

I don't believe PR has ever made Craftsman screwdrivers. AFAIK, they have always been made by WF, in all variations.

Although both are now owned by Ideal. I wouldn't be surprised if they were consolidating production, especially after losing Craftsman contracts.

 

[DekeT]

That is sad news. We need to figure out how to get America working again.

It was greed at the top and not thrift from the middle that drove those jobs overseas. Americans never wanted to buy foreign goods.

 

[LB-1911]

I don't believe PR has ever made Craftsman screwdrivers. AFAIK, they have always been made by WF, in all variations.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10413

 

[bczygan]

Wah, wah wah!

American workers are losing jobs.....

They should be.

If their skill set and technology and pricing don't match people elsewhere, then they don't deserve to have those jobs. In fact those jobs should not exist.

Every product, at every price point, needs to find it's proper place of manufacture.

If that place is China or Vietnam or Malaysia.....then so be it.

It is efficient and cost effective, which wastes less human resources.

And if the alternative is to be replaced by a machine, all the better.

That leaves humans to do higher and better things.

It has always been so, that this happens. Your shoes are no longer mad by a cobbler cutting pieces of leather and working over a last.

Buy American just because? Hell NO!

The whole idea of dividing humanity by nationality is as outmoded as the divine right of kings.

Bill

 

[DekeT]

The free market, by its very nature, dictates that inferior products fall by the wayside.

This myth, on its own, as an explanation of the survivability of a product is just simply not true.

 

[Davefr]

It was greed at the top and not thrift from the middle that drove those jobs overseas. Americans never wanted to buy foreign goods.

That's B.S.

These companies would much rather sell premium priced US brands because the profit margin is higher then no name goods from China.

However demand drops to close to zero because the average US consumer has a love affair with cheap goods from China.

Retailers will gladly stock whatever price points the consumer is inclined to buy.

 

[Wakefield]

It occurs to me that the biggest problem is that people don't go to Sears like they used to. When I was a kid, we bought EVERYTHING from Sears. Not just Craftsman tools. I'm talking Kenmore appliances, Sears televisions, Free Spirit bicycles, my mom even made us wear those Godawful Toughskin jeans. My original Atari 2600 didn't even say Atari on it. It said "Sears"...as they had that much marketing clout. The nearest Sears store was 60 miles away, but we had a catalog store in our little town that you could buy ANYTHING Sears sold in. You just had to wait about 10 days, they'd call you and you'd go pick it up.

Fast forward to today. I haven't been in a Sears in over a year. I wouldn't even consider buying a Kenmore appliance. I doubt they even make Free Spirit bikes (although they still sell those stiff kneed, Forrest-Gump-in-braces jeans). Sears is just a husk of its former self and has been jettisoning cash for years (especially after the major FU of buying Kmart). Their stock's in the toilet, down 57% in the last 5 years.

What did them in? We did them in. The american consumer did them in. We voted with our feet by the millions and took our business first to their competitors (Walmart for one) and then to the internet. Meanwhile, Sears seems to have made about every boneheaded decision they could have trying to catch up...and they haven't been able to.

I personally have a lot of nostalgia for Sears. That's where I bought my first BB gun. My first bike. My first tools. Got my first credit card. Heck, I bought my first homeowners insurance at the Sears Store. I wish them well. But the business side of my brain sees no hope for them. They are on borrowed time, I'm afraid. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

I'd rather buy a pair of Toughskin Jeans than stock in their company today. And you know how much I like those jeans. So, regardless of who makes Craftsman tools, it sort of doesn't matter. Because people, by-and large, don't shop at Sears anymore.

Phil

I didn't stop going to Sears or buying an occasional tool there (and clothing) until they went away. Their fault! Gone,gone,closed. As also I think the one in Charlottesville closed down. Probably long enough ago that the breaker bars still worked.

 

[woody 73]

Bill I don't know the answer but I think a lot of people would not agree with you.

This was in my local paper this week very sad reading and things are not getting any better.

http://workplace.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2015/09/26/impoverished.html

 

[DekeT]

That's B.S.

These companies would much rather sell premium priced US brands because the profit margin is higher then no name goods from China.

However demand drops to close to zero because the average US consumer has a love affair with cheap goods from China.

Retailers will gladly stock whatever price points the consumer is inclined to buy.

So you are saying you have no faith in Americans. You should move overseas. I stand by my original assertion that Americans never wanted to buy foreign goods. Your post doesn't even agree with itself from beginning to end.

 

[bczygan]

Bill I don't know the answer but I think a lot of people would not agree with you.

This was in my local paper this week very sad reading and things are not getting any better.

http://workplace.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2015/09/26/impoverished.html

If those are people who's jobs have disappeared for one reason or another, then they need to train for other jobs, that are available.

We have always discarded jobs that no longer made sense. We don't have street sweepers anymore, or traffic cops directing traffic at street corners. We don't sew our own clothes or manufacture TV sets (I've done that BTW). No berths on whaling ships have been available for some time now. And a myriad of other jobs.

Even without NAFTA, when there were far more tariffs, the global economic system had ways of evening the playing field. If an individual doesn't produce value, he gets devalued by only being able to earn lower wages. If a country doesn't produce value, their currency gets devalued. Eventually things reach their proper levels.

The days where the US could dictate world markets with economic colonialism, are over. Remember when we could say what coffee and bananas would cost?

You can bemoan lost jobs, but I see them as an opportunity to upgrade. I sure never want to work in a factory ever again.

One thing I think that we, as a nation, feel the loss of, is power. Power to dictate and control. In a world economy we have to relate to everyone else, not dictate. We are no longer the source, but just another player.

So a plant closes down or a company goes out of business. There are good reasons for that happening. It's time for the people involved to get on with it. It is in large part, survival of the fittest.

In other words, I think things are working as they should.

Bill

 

[John in OH]

.......

If their skill set and technology and pricing don't match people elsewhere, then they don't deserve to have those jobs. In fact those jobs should not exist.

Every product, at every price point, needs to find it's proper place of manufacture.

If that place is China or Vietnam or Malaysia.....then so be it.

It is efficient and cost effective, which wastes less human resources.

And if the alternative is to be replaced by a machine, all the better.

That leaves humans to do higher and better things.

........

Buy American just because? Hell NO!

The whole idea of dividing humanity by nationality is as outmoded as the divine right of kings.

Bill

Bill,

Your view fails to account for the fact that the global standards of living are not equal. If you wish for US standards of living to shrink to match those of "China or Vietnam or Malaysia" then your view is more valid.

But, if you wish for your neighbors (and your children and grand-children) to enjoy our freedoms, opportunities, education, quality of life, etc. that you and I have enjoyed, then we, as US citizens, must be willing to pay for it. We can't pay for these benefits at "China or Vietnam or Malaysia" wage rates.

It is certainly not true that manufacturing in China, Vietnam or Malaysia is "efficient and cost effective, which wastes less human resources" if such results in US citizens becoming unemployed or falling into poverty and the US is forced to spend its federal and state resources (which we citizens provide) supporting these unfortunate folks.

Nor, is it true that this allows "...... the alternative is to be replaced by a machine, all the better. That leaves humans to do higher and better things". Really???? What "higher and better things"?

Let's be realistic, many people just want to live a decent life, provide for their families, and feel good about themselves. Not everyone has the desire or intelligence to be a professor, philosopher, or scientist. The US has a population of 320 MILLION people!!! There have to be LOTS of good paying US jobs (not McDonald servers) to support and pay for a decent quality of life for this many people.

So, if I have to spend a few extra dollars for a good-quality, US-made tool (even if it isn't necessarily the absolute highest quality available) I try to do so.

 

[bczygan]

Bill,

Your view fails to account for the fact that the global standards of living are not equal. If you wish for US standards of living to shrink to match those of "China or Vietnam or Malaysia" then your view is more valid.

But, if you wish for your neighbors (and your children and grand-children) to enjoy our freedoms, opportunities, education, quality of life, etc. that you and I have enjoyed, then we, as US citizens, must be willing to pay for it. We can't pay for these benefits at "China or Vietnam or Malaysia" wage rates.

It is certainly not true that manufacturing in China, Vietnam or Malaysia is "efficient and cost effective, which wastes less human resources" if such results in US citizens becoming unemployed or falling into poverty and the US is forced to spend its federal and state resources (which we citizens provide) supporting these unfortunate folks.

Nor, is it true that this allows "...... the alternative is to be replaced by a machine, all the better. That leaves humans to do higher and better things". Really???? What "higher and better things"?

Let's be realistic, many people just want to live a decent life, provide for their families, and feel good about themselves. Not everyone has the desire or intelligence to be a professor, philosopher, or scientist. The US has a population of 320 MILLION people!!! There have to be LOTS of good paying US jobs (not McDonald servers) to support and pay for a decent quality of life for this many people.

So, if I have to spend a few extra dollars for a good-quality, US-made tool (even if it isn't necessarily the absolute highest quality available) I try to do so.

I think we should certainly receive wages commensurate with the work we do or the value we create. If that work is on par with what workers elsewhere do, the wages should match. If we can create more value in some way, that should be rewarded.

These manufacturing jobs are moving on purpose and for good reason. Trying to artificially keep them here by paying more, just devalues you as an individual, and doesn't work anyway, because the numbers of people doing it is small. You are placing your own reverse tariffs on yourself.

Everything and everyone should be at their highest and best use. We see it right now with the internet versus brick and mortar. We see it with online information versus printed materials. We even see it with Uber versus taxi companies. Do I feel sorry for regular taxi company drivers? Somewhat. But if I was one, I would be looking for other options.

So whoever can do the job for me for the best price, at the level of quality I desire, gets the job. People on the forum are as price and quality conscious as anyone. Imagine a world where no tools whatsoever were made here, but the very same tools as exist now, were still made with the same quality, for the same prices, on the same terms.

That would still work fine. The people here that used to manufacture those tools would have to find other work, retire or die.

The world would still turn. This country would still exist and thrive.

Bill

 

[Ponchoguy]

I don't believe PR has ever made Craftsman screwdrivers. AFAIK, they have always been made by WF, in all variations.

Although both are now owned by Ideal. I wouldn't be surprised if they were consolidating production, especially after losing Craftsman contracts.

I have several CMan screwdrivers with the "PR" stamping on them.

 

[winlinmac]

I'm still reflecting on Donald Trump's Tax Plan from yesterday, may or may not bring jobs back here. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if companies permanently outsource themselves all together as Trump wants to close the gap on the loopholes.

If you have a strong opinion on global trade, you don't understand it.

What I can tell you is, right wrong, or indifferent, USA can't expect any breaks cut for us. If US businesses want to succeed, they have to be tough and compete. We're pretty good at that. US car industry today is a lot better off than it was 30-40 years ago.

 

[bobcatdan]

Loosing sears would be a big hit, but I bet WF will surive. Just look at 99% of USA made adjustables, they are WF no matter the the name. Just bought some Williams one, yup WF.

 

[HanShotFirst]

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=305001

Americans have a romanticized view of product development. They think innovation comes from smoking pot and dreaming up a device that holds all your music that no one has ever conceived of.

That's not actually how it works typically (tho that does happen- which has created the notion). From Edison, and the Wright brothers to modern inventors, innovation comes from understanding the subject, researching needs, and testing.

The spin socket is a perfect example. Where was the study that showed the real problem mechanics have is the time is takes them to remove a loosened fastener? And that a different tool, located, installed and actuated, is a time saver? No doubt the innventors think its cool. And it's innovative. But that doesn't make it useful. Could say the same things for the x-wrench. Where is the hew and cry that conventional wrench heads are failing and need those unsupported struts to limit the tool's usefulness and reinforce failing heads?

The modern ratcheting box wrench (Gearwrench) was a good darned idea. They aren't perfect, but I find them to be pretty darned helpful. The dual 80 ratchet mechanism is genius. Its a subtle design change, almost imperceptibly different from the previous models, but I'll be darned it if doesn't do everything I wanted done. Its stronger, has a finer ratchet swing, and lower back drag. That's the holy grail of ratchet technology and it deserves the praise it gets.

Where is your Dual 80 Western Forge? Where is your ratcheting box wrench?

Snap On and Koken are both working on low height sockets. But neither company has produced a usable range of low height ratchets to go with them. Its like they are feeling out the market first. I'm hesitant to buy more low height sockets because Snap On's don't fit on their normal ratchets and so far Snap on hasn't made any more ratchets to go with them. This is easy pickens for new SK or Western Forge, (or Koken). We know these tools would be helpful for engine work. The serpentine belt tools are okay, but a bit weak and a bit clunky.

Where is the cordless impact ratchet? Pretty sure IR has an air powered one. I never liked air ratchets because of the torque you get hit with when the bolt bottoms out. Impact solves that. I want a low torque 3/8" cordless ratchet that uses impact technology. And how about some sort of sensing technology that would allow us to kinda sorta set the on torque to 10, 20, 30ftlbs. Some sort of clutch? And I'd like a flex head.

Ask yourself this. Do you think Western Forge could make a ratchet better than the Pittsburgh Pro SO knock off, then both market and sell it at a profit? If their market is the home mechanic, they have a massive mountain to climb.

The tool market is a brutal market to be in these days. Snap On is killing it because they have Harley Davidson level branding and marketing, and Yamaha quality.

If you're in a market, there is only one safe place to be; the top end of the market. And it's only safe if you really are the best, and can convince the public you're the best. Everyone else is going to have a really rough go either convincing their middle market offering is somehow "better" than everyone else, or the bottom end market doing the Wal Mart thing and trying to beat everyone on price.

Harbor Freight is doing both middle and bottom and they're killing it! For the past 20+ years their quality has consistently risen. Their socket and ratchet quality is just plain outstanding, and they are killing the competition. These days about the ONLY ratchet I would buy over the HF is what they're copying; Snap On. I predict that HF will own the socket/ratchet market in 10 years. If they ever get their wrench quality up, then all the mid-line makers will be in huge trouble (they are now).

For anyone but the tip top of the market, that Pacific Rim wage advantage is exceedingly difficult to overcome; especially when the Pacific Rim gains quality.

 

[HanShotFirst]

If you have a strong opinion on global trade, you don't understand it.

What I can tell you is, right wrong, or indifferent, USA can't expect any breaks cut for us. If US businesses want to succeed, they have to be tough and compete. We're pretty good at that. US car industry today is a lot better off than it was 30-40 years ago.

There is only two ways you're going to do that, by lowering US wages, or raising foreign import tariff's; which do you want?

The US car industry is very competitive because of the information age. US manufacturing is leading edge and very efficient, but so is everyone else. So why are US companies now really competitive once again? Well to be honest, it's because foreign car companies now have to pay competitive wages, not because we've out done them in productivity. And the GM's & Ford's along with the UAW have a very strong lobby in the US, and they actually get import tariff's on imports, forcing Japanese companies to make their cars here in the US. But tool companies don't get any such protectionism, and as a result they're all dying off.

It used to be that the US could develop new processes and beat everyone on efficiency and productivity. But now we're in the information age, what took the Pacific Rim 20 years to match in productivity is now match in 3-5 years. With something like hand tools, guess what; productivity is only going to go so far and then you're pretty much up against a wall waiting for robots to completely take over.

So that takes you back to the worker. Do you want the US to have China or Taiwan's wages?

We do a **** job of protecting US companies against sweat shop labor.

 

[winlinmac]

 

[Davefr]

So you are saying you have no faith in Americans. You should move overseas. I stand by my original assertion that Americans never wanted to buy foreign goods.

I never said that.

The average American shopper is more concerned with price then any other consideration such as COO or quality. Given this demand, retailers are doing everything they can to meet it with low cost foreign goods. (ie they're trying to give customers exactly what they want).

There's nothing a retailer would rather do then upsell to higher end widgets. (ie more profit margin). However demand drops to zero pretty quickly.

 

[HanShotFirst]

Yeah, I guess I think they could do it. Totally agree with what you are saying.

Ya know, I think you could copy SO, and come up with cooler handles, better packaging, and do okay. Snap On's handles are a bit stogey.

I like what Koken is doing. Hell yeah, I'd buy a new set of locking extensions from someone like SK. But you only get one chance with me. If the set has flaking chrome, I'm out.

And like all internet shoppers, i look for data before I buy. Is wrench A longer, stronger, thinner, than wrench B? SK needs to provide this data. And if their product doesn't fair well (and it doesn't), CHANGE IT (see my wrench comparison below).

Where is Western Forge's marketing that says, "yeah our clear handle screwdrivers are ugly- but they were good enough for your Dad, we have the latest technology in the tips, and guess what? These things resist every chemical they come into contact with. They laugh at Brake clean. Don't try this with you new instinct..."

Yeah, I think these companies could thrive, but I feel like they are complacent.

So isn't that what Harbor Freight is doing? They have a SO copy and offer a couple of handles (they could do a LOT more with that). But you think WF could do the same thing and COMPETE when HF is offering basically that for $20.00...and the HF Snap On copies are damn good ratchets. I'm not saying it's completely non-doable, but I can think of WAY better ways to try to make money if I own a forging firm.

And yeah, I'm with you on the SK wrenches. I have a set of their long pattern wrenches, which are basically analogs to 20 years ago Snap On standard length wrenches. They're great wrenches and I've been VERY happy with them. But I bought them over 20 years ago when they honestly matched the Snap On for much less money. Today, they're WAY behind. The Super Chrome wrenches are damn near stubbies in comparison to most other makes unless you get the "long pattern" which makes them similar in length to a Snap On. But SK still doesn't offer an anti slip design when pretty much every other US maker does. Yeah I know one is in the works, but Good LAWD, how long does it take? It's a new set of broaches, and no that's not crippling expensive...freaking get on it for crying out loud. I've heard complaints about the wide hips on the box end, but in over 20 years that has NEVER been an issue to me, and it makes SK's wrenches a little distinctive, so personally I'd keep it.

But if I were to find out that a significant part of the buying public isn't buying because of the Kim Kardashian hips, then you either lose them, or offer a model without that "feature".

To be honest, I think even Snap On's days are numbered unless they can get a little love from Congress...and since Snap On's not nearly big enough to lobby for that, it's only a matter of time until someone does US R&D and then out-sources their manufacturing to the Pacific Rim, and then manages to market as effectively as Snap On does.

 

[PJNJ]

Putting aside an answer to the stupid and callous posts for a moment, it's sad to hear that there may be layoffs and I hope the workers and their families are able to survive this and find other employment.

 

[jhnlngn]

There is only two ways you're going to do that, by lowering US wages, or raising foreign import tariff's; which do you want?

The US car industry is very competitive because of the information age. US manufacturing is leading edge and very efficient, but so is everyone else. So why are US companies now really competitive once again? Well to be honest, it's because foreign car companies now have to pay competitive wages, not because we've out done them in productivity. And the GM's & Ford's along with the UAW have a very strong lobby in the US, and they actually get import tariff's on imports, forcing Japanese companies to make their cars here in the US. But tool companies don't get any such protectionism, and as a result they're all dying off.

It used to be that the US could develop new processes and beat everyone on efficiency and productivity. But now we're in the information age, what took the Pacific Rim 20 years to match in productivity is now match in 3-5 years. With something like hand tools, guess what; productivity is only going to go so far and then you're pretty much up against a wall waiting for robots to completely take over.

So that takes you back to the worker. Do you want the US to have China or Taiwan's wages?

We do a **** job of protecting US companies against sweat shop labor.

When it comes to the fallacy of the magic of markets and how it doesn't jive with what is observed by macroeconomics, one thing you don't see mentioned much is the manipulation of said markets. It's not news that both the Chinese and Japanese governments, for example, greatly subsidize their industries by manipulating currency among other things. That makes it almost impossible for American manufacturers to compete. Like you said, it comes back to the workers. By any measure the American worker has been taking it in the rear end for 35+ years now. How weak can you make the middle class before you no longer have a functioning society?

I know I am much different then the average US consumer. I will not buy anything from China unless I have absolutely no choice. I feel I have to shop with my conscious. In no way, shape or form do I want to support a totalitarian government with a dubious human rights record. I will go out of my way to pay more for something that I know is made responsibly, both to the worker and the environment. I am not interested in being part of the throw away society. If I currently can't afford that product then I go without it until I can. I am totally fed up with seeing things that I used to buy that were made here get outsourced and the price is the same or higher.

What is interesting is that we are starting to things change and a market come back around for quality 1st world made items. Coincidentally, the shoes I wear were made on a last by a cobbler. There's a huge market for denim made on pre-war looms, cut and sewn by hand by Americans on 60+ year old Singer sewing machines. Sure it's not a Walmart sized market, but it's a market that didn't even exist 10-15 years ago. It's exciting to see not every decision fueled by greed.