What buffer to buy?

[ChrisStarks]

That's because they are relatively cheap, can level paint very fast, last forever and it's easy to replace the brushes after 200 hours of service. Time is money. As your snide comment infers, the enthusiast market has slightly different priorities/needs and that doesn't necessarily make their tool of choice inferior. A forced rotation DA machine is very capable using the right pad and doesn't require the learning curve of a rotary. It's not a replacement for a rotary, it all depends on what you need to accomplish.

FWIW, most of the "professionals" (detailers included) that have touched my cars over the years have used a rotary, and in almost every instance they have left hologramming on my cars which I have to correct. I've come to expect it when I send my car in for body work. So the tools of choice for the "professionals" isn't a terriby big sell when I'm the guy fixing their mistakes.

I'm guessing this is a homeowner reply?

Check the prices for a proper rotary buffer - they ain't cheap. I don't use a real buffer because they're parts are cheap, or because they're quicker. I use them because they're the tool that works. DA buffers merely "flirt" with the paint or clear. Like I said, you want to apply wax to your PT cruiser before showing up at In-n-Out? Get a DA buffer. Otherwise, don't.

 

[Matt M PA]

I've been restoring national award winning showcars for years, detailing for myself...and for awhile...detailing for others. Bentleys, Rolls, Ferrari, etc. (and some real neglected cars too)

If you're just starting out, the best machine (and the one I use most) is the Porter Cable 7424 and it's newer brother the 7424XP. You can remove light defects, swirls, even holograms with the right pad and product.

I also have a Makita BO6040 which is both a "orbital" and forced rotation at the flip of a switch.

Finally, I have a rotary that gets limited use. I will say that a rotary can cause alot of damage if you're unsure exactly how to use it. Using softer foam pads will help. A rotary will get the bigger correction done faster...but I have found little use in my experience. I'd rather take the extra few moments with a less aggressive machine. (I know a guy that runs a "pro" detail show and every car gets done with a wool pad and a rotary)

I thought of getting the Flex that is mentioned above as it works like an orbital with a geared again that does not allow it to bog as the PCs can do. My Makita fills that void.

I've had very good results with Meguiar's pads, and not quite so good luck with Lake County. There's a newer type called Kompressor that I am very pleased with.

Finally, the Cyclo. I've considered that too. I think it's a great machine, but I'm not yet convinced that there is any benefit over the machines I have.

I've made a serious investment over the years in detailing from a pad washer to a water de-ionizing system for my wash water. I recently got an Airforce Master Blaster to dry my vehicles and it's a huge help.

I've been well pleased with Zaino's products. They seem to last the longest and give a great shine. Their Fusion swirl remover/paint cleaner works exceptionally well and is water based so there's no oil to hide any defects. I've also used Klasse AIO with great results too.

 

[pipsters]

Here's an example of what a PC7424 can do, a White LC pad, M205. Looks like it does a bit more than just apply wax to me, but I am just a homeowner.

Also, when looking, the PC7424XP is around $110, the Flex is around $320. The Flex is about 3x the cost. Are you getting 3x the value in it? I decided no, I could afford it, but thought the money would be better put to use elsewhere.

 

[ChrisStarks]

Are we looking at the scratches and swirl marks, or is there something else in that picture that you buffer has done?

 

[pipsters]

That is not my picture, I robbed it, but yes the general cleanup of the swirls and scratches.

 

[MrMark]

Makita or Dewalt is the only way to go. DA "buffers" are useless, except for homeowners applying waxes. I do restoration work, and use a Dewalt buffer with excellent results. Yes, a rotary buffer will destroy your paint if you're not careful, or have the speed too high. A buffer is like any other tool; learn to use it, or you will break ****! If you have a buffer that is designed to be slow, or not burn through clearcoat, then it will not be aggressive enough for heavy polishing jobs.
Never heard of a Flex buffer before this forum. Every detail guy/paint shop/restoration shop I've been to or worked with has used Makita/Dewalt polishers.
Again, this is my opinion. I'm sure there will be several homeowners/amateurs/internet mechanics that will disagree.

You are no "professional" if you didn't know what a Flex or PC DA was and you work in the industry. True car enthusiasts and true quality detailers use PC DA's and Flex. Autopia has thousands of members including the so-called "pro's" that was those machines for the highest end details. Very few true car paint enthusiasts would let anyone with a rotary near their car.

With modern diminishing abrasives and polymer technologies, you can achieve a virtually swirl free finish on a black car with the DA/FLEX. Not possible on a rotary without filler.

 

[MrMark]

Auto body painters and paint shops don't have time to do "detail" level work. They don't get paid for that and they generally don't have the resources/labor or the fancy materials. Just some somewhat (not really) clean pads and some 3M compound that the guy at the paint store sold them. They have a couple guys (usually illegals, yur professionals) with rotaries and some rags to buff out color sanded paint and kind a get it looking kinda good in direct sunlight. Painter is not the right person to ask about detailing, and the good ones will admit that.

 

[MrMark]

I'm guessing this is a homeowner reply?

Check the prices for a proper rotary buffer - they ain't cheap. I don't use a real buffer because they're parts are cheap, or because they're quicker. I use them because they're the tool that works. DA buffers merely "flirt" with the paint or clear. Like I said, you want to apply wax to your PT cruiser before showing up at In-n-Out? Get a DA buffer. Otherwise, don't.

And how exactly are you better at detailing than the "homeowner"? Because you work in a shop? What exactly does that fact say about you other than you get paid to do a job? They're plenty of homeowners that would blow your doors off on detailing, mechanic work, you name it.

There's way too much of this "professional" stuff on this forum. It is truly a meaningless appellation. How about a "good" (fill-in-the-blank), rather than the standard "professional" this, professional that.

 

[Jayincali]

Rotary’s and DA's are two different animals. You’re telling someone that probably doesn't have any experience in polishing to buy a rotary, that’s good advice; their hood will be trashed in 20 seconds. As for the PC DA being useless for an average detailer/hobbyist isn't so true. As for the so called "professional" that doesn't know what a Flex is, thanks for the laugh. I think you just about labeled yourself with your own comment of "internet mechanic"

Before pic using a PC DA.

After Pic using a PC DA

PC DA used for minor touch up paint work.
Scratch to primer about 7" long from a shopping cart. Used touch up paint to fill the scratch.

Wetsanded with 1500, then buffed out with PC.

Of couse you won't buff out a new sprayed car to a show car finish, but again, two different animals.

BTW, the products I use don't contain fillers. I can wipe with an alcohol pad or clay and you still have the same finish. Had to correct the so called "paint pro" after i got my truck back. After they painted and buffed the paint, yea it looked good, after a couple washes, looked like it was washed with a scrub brush.

 

[ChrisStarks]

Auto body painters and paint shops don't have time to do "detail" level work. They don't get paid for that and they generally don't have the resources/labor or the fancy materials. Just some somewhat (not really) clean pads and some 3M compound that the guy at the paint store sold them. They have a couple guys (usually illegals, yur professionals) with rotaries and some rags to buff out color sanded paint and kind a get it looking kinda good in direct sunlight. Painter is not the right person to ask about detailing, and the good ones will admit that.

Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.
I do this work 60 hours a week. Myself and my workers have all the time in necessary to do "detail work". I usually don't bill the customers for this, because I like to take my time. We use all 3M materials, and don't work with junk tools, pads or materials.
It sounds like you're the one generalizing - illegals, rags, etc.
I paint the cars that come into my shop, and I also colorsand, buff and detail them. I probably spend around 20 hours prepping, masking and painting our average paint job. I spend around 60 hours colorsanding, polishing and detailing the paint afterwards.
You need to spend (more) time around nicer, reputable shops. Not all paint shops are cheap and use junk materials.
I have no idea who uses what on autotopia.com, or amazon.com or other interent sites or forums... don't really care, either. An internet forum full of "armchair mechanics" will not help me decide what to use.

 

[MrMark]

Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.
I do this work 60 hours a week. Myself and my workers have all the time in necessary to do "detail work". I usually don't bill the customers for this, because I like to take my time. We use all 3M materials, and don't work with junk tools, pads or materials.
It sounds like you're the one generalizing - illegals, rags, etc.
I paint the cars that come into my shop, and I also colorsand, buff and detail them. I probably spend around 20 hours prepping, masking and painting our average paint job. I spend around 60 hours colorsanding, polishing and detailing the paint afterwards.
You need to spend (more) time around nicer, reputable shops. Not all paint shops are cheap and use junk materials.

20 hours to prep, mask and paint a car and you claim to do high end work? LOL.

 

[ChrisStarks]

20 hours to prep, mask and paint a car and you claim to do high end work? LOL.

Thats for an average paint job. Average meaning one color, basic exterior, no graphics, no pearls, metallics, or candies. Exactly how long do you think this takes?

So... I'm a liar, a cheat, do cheap work, and a non-professional? Just trying to help someone choose the right tool, not here to call names.

 

[MrMark]

Don't be coming on here telling us how you do things at Maaco. You're the one that's come on here spouting off calling people homeowners and internet mechanics trying to put people down and you don't even know what a DA or a Flex is. When you get some of your own medicine you don't like it much, do ya? You need to learn. A lot.

 

[ChrisStarks]

Don't be coming on here telling us how you do things at Maaco. You're the one that's come on here spouting off calling people homeowners and internet mechanics trying to put people down and you don't even know what a DA or a Flex is. When you get some of your own medicine you don't like it much, do ya? You need to learn. A lot.

Mark, thanks for your comments. "Internet professional" at its finest. 10:1 odds that you live at your mothers house.

 

[MrMark]

I wish I lived at my mother's house! You could be damn sure I would if I could and not pay this mortgage.

 

[ChrisStarks]

MrMark - a legend in his (her?) own mind... and admirer of kitty cats. Thanks for playing!

 

[CamarosRus]

I've started to use my new PC7424XP, Lakes Country White pad and MENZERNA Super Finish (polish) on my MAZDA6 (Daily Driver). I'm at speed #2. I still have fine scratches (not swirls) that I can see under flood lighting. It has been suggested that I turn up speed to between 4 and 6 and apply more pressure.

Then I will use existing 3M Glaze and or Mequairs #21 Sealer on Black foam pad. These products are expensive and I dont want to buy more.

Any suggestions for this homeowner detailer.

Thanks

 

[Boiler]

Also, when looking, the PC7424XP is around $110, the Flex is around $320. The Flex is about 3x the cost. Are you getting 3x the value in it? I decided no, I could afford it, but thought the money would be better put to use elsewhere.

I noted this when I was shopping too, and heard how much faster you could work with the flex. I ended up buying a 3" griots and the flex and I'm happy with the combination of the two. The flex just really fly's through the big open spaces. I take all weekend to "do" my jeep. Wash, polish, seal, windows, plastics, etc. To much to do to waste time.

When I did my mom's spiderwebs, I spent probably 8 hours going over that SOB, and I'm glad it wasn't 12.

 

[MrMark]

I've started to use my new PC7424XP, Lakes Country White pad and MENZERNA Super Finish (polish) on my MAZDA6 (Daily Driver). I'm at speed #2. I still have fine scratches (not swirls) that I can see under flood lighting. It has been suggested that I turn up speed to between 4 and 6 and apply more pressure.

Then I will use existing 3M Glaze and or Mequairs #21 Sealer on Black foam pad. These products are expensive and I dont want to buy more.

Any suggestions for this homeowner detailer.

Thanks

Yes, turn it up to 6 and press down just a bit and go very slow, way slower than you think.

 

[gtmorgan89]

Thanks for all the input guys. Im leaning towards the makita/dewalt polishers. I will be using it to get dry shot/orange peel out of fresh paint.

Is it possible to shine up a 10 yr old car with a polisher such as this with the right combo of pad, and polish? Or is it too fast for application work.

 

[MrMark]

That is the right application for that tool. But, you will need to color sand with 2000 to level the orange peel and remove the dust nibs and dry spray. Remember that factory paint has orange peel and if less than a complete redo you need to match orange peel too, so don't sand it flat.

You can use that tool on a detail job too, although I would always finish with the flex/pc to get the final swirl/holograms left by the rotary.

You just have to keep the rpm's down and avoid the edges and character lines because the paint is thin there and it will burn through. On an older finish you really have to be gentle because of burn through issues. You want to preserve as much as you can.

The general rule of thumb for these tools is high volume/production setting = rotary. Buff after color sand = rotary.

Perfectionist: rotary for major correction work, and PC/Flex for all else.

 

[Boiler]

The general rule of thumb for these tools is high volume/production setting = rotary. Buff after color sand = rotary.

Perfectionist: rotary for major correction work, and PC/Flex for all else.

I can agree with this 100%

 

[RKA]

I've started to use my new PC7424XP, Lakes Country White pad and MENZERNA Super Finish (polish) on my MAZDA6 (Daily Driver). I'm at speed #2. I still have fine scratches (not swirls) that I can see under flood lighting. It has been suggested that I turn up speed to between 4 and 6 and apply more pressure.

Then I will use existing 3M Glaze and or Mequairs #21 Sealer on Black foam pad. These products are expensive and I dont want to buy more.

Any suggestions for this homeowner detailer.

Thanks

2 won't do much. You'll find 99% of the time you're working above 4, and 95% of the time at 5 and 6 with the PC. As for the pressure, take a marker and mark the back edge of the pad. Watch that mark when the machine is operating, when you put it on the paint, and when you start to apply pressure. You'll notice it takes a very light amount of pressure before the rotation stops. That's your sweet spot.

Thanks for all the input guys. Im leaning towards the makita/dewalt polishers. I will be using it to get dry shot/orange peel out of fresh paint.

Is it possible to shine up a 10 yr old car with a polisher such as this with the right combo of pad, and polish? Or is it too fast for application work.

You can certainly restore the 10 year old paint. Rotaries aren't that scary as one poster mentioned. Limit the speed to 1400 rpms tops (start slow and finish slow), keep the pad moving across the paint, watch raised edges and take it easier on plastic painted parts. You'll be fine.

 

[Pro-Painter]

Boy did I miss a lot.

For polishing new paint, follow the 3M Perfect-it paint finishing video I posted. When you go to a supply shop to get your compounds, ask them for a brochure on the 3M system. It will have all the details you will need to have near perfect results. Everything from what materials to buy, to RPM and pressure settings for each and every step. It's really a great, easy to learn, and user friendly way to polish out new paint. You wont be disipointed..... except maybe when you get the bill. It's about $200 for everything you need, Tools not included. But it's worth it.

You can use the same system to polish out your old car. You will have plenty left over. Just be careful because the paint will not be as forgiving and may have been polished a few times in it's 10 years. As mentioned before, stay away from sharp edges. You can use masking tape to cover the edges so if you do make a mistake it wont burn that edge. Don't try to match the old orange peel. That is just bad advice (no offense, I just disagree). Even if you are attempting to match old paint, You should polish the old paint to match the new because you can't add age to new paint, but you can remove age from old paint.

 

[pipsters]

I noted this when I was shopping too, and heard how much faster you could work with the flex. I ended up buying a 3" griots and the flex and I'm happy with the combination of the two. The flex just really fly's through the big open spaces. I take all weekend to "do" my jeep. Wash, polish, seal, windows, plastics, etc. To much to do to waste time.

When I did my mom's spiderwebs, I spent probably 8 hours going over that SOB, and I'm glad it wasn't 12.

Yeah I thought about that as well. Who knows, maybe in the future a Flex will be in my garage. I rationalized it thinking that I would really only be doing the "long days" once with my cars, after they are up to snuff I'll just be lightly going over them. Also I liked that the PC7424 had carpet brush attachments for it, and I actually plan on using them to clean my bathtubs & showers (soap scum) as well. Sounds weird but that is a ***** by hand.

 

[MrMark]

Boy did I miss a lot.

For polishing new paint, follow the 3M Perfect-it paint finishing video I posted. When you go to a supply shop to get your compounds, ask them for a brochure on the 3M system. It will have all the details you will need to have near perfect results. Everything from what materials to buy, to RPM and pressure settings for each and every step. It's really a great, easy to learn, and user friendly way to polish out new paint. You wont be disipointed..... except maybe when you get the bill. It's about $200 for everything you need, Tools not included. But it's worth it.

You can use the same system to polish out your old car. You will have plenty left over. Just be careful because the paint will not be as forgiving and may have been polished a few times in it's 10 years. As mentioned before, stay away from sharp edges. You can use masking tape to cover the edges so if you do make a mistake it wont burn that edge. Don't try to match the old orange peel. That is just bad advice (no offense, I just disagree). Even if you are attempting to match old paint, You should polish the old paint to match the new because you can't add age to new paint, but you can remove age from old paint.

You are a brave painter if you are going to try to sand a factory finish flat. Talk about adding cost to a job and undertaking a job a paint shop is not cut out to do, not to mention taking the factory job (which you could never duplicate for hardness and durability) down to nothing. How much do you think will be left of that factory clear after you try to sand out the orange peel?

That is some seriously bad advice.

I would be ripsh#t if a paint shop sanded my good paint on a partial job. Factory paint is to be cherished.

 

[jride200]

Maybe slightly off topic here, but there is a lot of knowledge in this thread... What niche, exactly, does the Cyclo polisher fall into?

I'm aware of these polishers through my aviation and airstream interests, and happened to come upon TWO of them at local pawn shops. Naturally, I snatched 'em up, for pennies on the dollar. Cyclo also makes a new model with electronic speed control, and I'm considering selling the two I have, to fund the purchase of this new model.

Come on guys, can't anyone tell me about what niche the Cyclo polisher falls into? I know how it differs, fundamentally, but how do the results differ?

 

[Pro-Painter]

You are a brave painter if you are going to try to sand a factory finish flat. Talk about adding cost to a job and undertaking a job a paint shop is not cut out to do, not to mention taking the factory job (which you could never duplicate for hardness and durability) down to nothing. How much do you think will be left of that factory clear after you try to sand out the orange peel?

That is some seriously bad advice.

I would be ripsh#t if a paint shop sanded my good paint on a partial job. Factory paint is to be cherished.

Factory paint is s**t. I can do much better then the **** that has been rolling out of Detroit lately.


It all depends on the age of the car, the condition of the factory paint and the color, as to what needs to be done. But generally, you feather the new clear on to the panels you are color matching too, to blend it in. You should know this if your a painter. It's basic blending technique 101. Regardless,
If the paint is newer (less then two years old) and in good shape, you can level OEM orange peel with no dangers at all. OEM clear is plenty thick enough to level. It's done all the time by dealerships on new and used cars and a standard practice of body shops everywhere.

If your paint don't mirror OEM finishes in terms of durability, then you are either not using the right materials, have an improper mixture, or using cheap paint. If you use a quality bc/cc with the materials, technique and mix formula you can easily mirror (or exceed) the "hardness and durability" of OEM finishes. That is what automotive paint is designed to do. For example, PPG Deltron is engineered to meet or exceed OEM specs and is the recommended refinish material for many of the large auto manufactures. It says so right on the can. They have spent millions if not billions of dollars on research over the years to come up with a proper OEM approved refinish material.

If they did not do so, Me and many like me would be without a job. Because no one would pay $3K to have their car painted less then OEM quality. Especially when many OEM finishes are failing within 5 years.

 

[70chevellegsp]

Factory paint is s**t. I can do much better then the **** that has been rolling out of Detroit lately.


It all depends on the age of the car, the condition of the factory paint and the color, as to what needs to be done. But generally, you feather the new clear on to the panels you are color matching too, to blend it in. You should know this if your a painter. It's basic blending technique 101. Regardless,
If the paint is newer (less then two years old) and in good shape, you can level OEM orange peel with no dangers at all. OEM clear is plenty thick enough to level. It's done all the time by dealerships on new and used cars and a standard practice of body shops everywhere.

If your paint don't mirror OEM finishes in terms of durability, then you are either not using the right materials, have an improper mixture, or using cheap paint. If you use a quality bc/cc with the materials, technique and mix formula you can easily mirror (or exceed) the "hardness and durability" of OEM finishes. That is what automotive paint is designed to do. For example, PPG Deltron is engineered to meet or exceed OEM specs and is the recommended refinish material for many of the large auto manufactures. It says so right on the can. They have spent millions if not billions of dollars on research over the years to come up with a proper OEM approved refinish material.

If they did not do so, Me and many like me would be without a job. Because no one would pay $3K to have their car painted less then OEM quality. Especially when many OEM finishes are failing within 5 years.

+1. I'd take a high quality paint job over OEM any day. I just had the hood of my car painted due to hail damage. The car has ceramic clear on it, and I had to explain that to the shop to ensure they used ceramic clear on the repair. I was a bit leary, but they not only did an excellent job on the paint with the proper materials, but they did an excellent job with the cut and buff. I was prepared for swirls when I washed off the fillers/glazes, but I was presently surprised that there were none. This particular shop is at the top of my list right now.

Something else to consider. Most car owners are not OCD about the finish. Some don't wash or wax their cars, some take them to automatic car washes, and some obsess about every blemish, but they are in the minority. Due to this a lot of bodyshops employ an 'efficient' cut and buff to remove any nibs and some peel, and then apply a glaze to get rid of (visibly) any swirls they created. Most car owners never even notice this and are pleased with the results. Not saying it's right, but being a (non-car-related) business owner, efficiency is profit. Even if you do get the OCD customer occasionally, you're still better off taking the additional time to re-detail that customers car than to spend that amount of time on every car. Now this is the repair/collision/repaint business, not high end hot rods/vehicles or a good detailing shop that OCD types seek out.

 

[Matt M PA]

The Cyclo. My understanding is that it differs from a regular machine as it uses two counter rotating pads as opposed to one. These pads function much like the Flex or Makita in forced rotation. The PCs are not direct geared and will slow down with pressure.

I decided against buying a Cyclo as I'd have twice as many pads to clean, it's a much bigger machine, and I really didn't see any real advantage to the Cyclo.

All that said, I think it's very well built, and certainly a good machine. I just saw no reason to buy one over the others.