What constitutes vintage.

[woody 73]

I think (key word here) is that the very word "VINTAGE" is one of the most over used words in are language today. "oh look at her shirt it is vintage from the 1980's.

The Bonney tool company stopped producing tools in the early 1990's they must be vintage.

My Bicentennial lathe made in 1976 is vintage.

My snap on tool set was made in 1979 it is vintage.

You get the general idea, without a map (in this case a starting and ending year) then everything is fair game for that most over used word "VINTAGE."

I use and like the 50-100 formula it works, it is simple to use and it leaves no room for every Tom & Jerry to interpret their own different years into the basic formula.

It is now 2018 if you take off 50 years that will leave you with 1968, again next year in 2019 -50 = 1969 and so on.

Now not too be confused if your items were made today, last year, only made for a short time,etc. they are all considered to be very collectable.

After 100 then just plain antique in nature.

I wish this could be a sticky but I can always come back to it in a link form and show new members so they can get a better understanding of what is vintage and what is collectable.

 

[Bob P1]

I would say every 20-25 years is a generation, so every generation may have its own "vintage" obviously some older then others. "Vintage" to many is a "time period".
JMO

 

[Stadger]

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=vintage

 

[1982fxr]

Proper use of the word Vintage is as gone with the wind as the .50 cents/pound vise rule.

 

[jessesandy]

At a minimum, something has to have been made before I was born for me to think it is vintage.

Since folks born in 2000 are adults now, they must be the ones calling stuff from the 80's and 90's "vintage".

They are wrong, of course... and get off my lawn )

 

[bonneyman]

Such a term is subjective.
I tend to view "vintage" as an overall image, of how something strikes me. Age is certainly a factor, a big factor. But for me style, condition, patina, collector value, and other factors all contribute to vintage status.
Nothing less than 20 years old is vintage in my book. And antique is at least 100 years old or older.
For tools, alot of factors have to be weighed. I consider Bonney tools vintage (even the early 90's examples) primarily because they're no longer made. Craftsman tools have to be 1960's or older to be vintage, as the 70's tools designs were still made up into the 90's. But as I said, it's subjective.

 

[davethorik]

I think I understand what you're getting at, Woody...some folk think vintage tool discussion = the 2018 garage sale thread. 21 year old screwdrivers are not vintage in my book. Nor are brand new SK line wrenches.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Hi Woody,

I remember the loooooong debate thread we had on this subject when Ryan finally split off the Vintage Board.

The 100-50 rule (currently, everything before 1918 is antique, and 1919 to 1968 is vintage) is still used, in general, for everything from jewelry to furniture, in traditional antique markets and public auction circles, and as a traditionalist, I don’t mind subscribing to it.

With automotive tools, though, I have always taken a mixed technological and historical view. Right now the two systems sort of match up very nicely for me on the back end. The advent of forged detachable sockets and drive tools in 1919 was a major milestone, and I consider everything before that to be antique.

My modern era marker is a decade and change earlier than 1968, though. That has less to do with technology and more to do with history and culture, for me. I talked about this in much more detail before on my National Tool League thread, linked here, but in summary I consider the end of the vintage era to be the beginning of Conglomeration, which I consider to be 1955. After that most of the major tool mfgrs lost their sense of uniqueness and independence in decisions made in board rooms by people who had never made or used a tool in their life. That’s why I consider everything after the mid 1950’s to be modern, and also why I have little interest in collecting it.

The other point I made on that long gone terminology thread, is that terminology would not be an issue at all if collectors would identify the timeframe, whenever possible, when they post. ‘Vintage 70’s’, ‘Vintage 80’s’, ‘Vintage 90’s’ is less egregious than ‘Vintage’ (which, I agree with you, implies that there is no difference between 1929 and 1989).

 

[Garett]

Old hand tools may not have any changes for decades.

If you are talking cars, I think 1930's and older.

Through the 60's I'd say classic. There is no way I would call a 70-80's car a classic, lol. That would just be a 70's or 80's car.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I think I understand what you're getting at, Woody...some folk think vintage tool discussion = the 2018 garage sale thread. 21 year old screwdrivers are not vintage in my book. Nor are brand new SK line wrenches.

I'm confused by what you mean here, Dave. The 2018 Garage Sale thread is and always has been on the General Discussion Board explicitly because it's not exclusive to vintage. I don't see anyone who posts modern finds there fobbing them off as vintage. EDIT: On the other hand, a lot of truly vintage tools are shown and discussed there, often initially, in summary, before they migrate down to this board for more elaborate or pertinent discussions.

 

[Toothaker]

Vintage is very subjective. I also think that as a technology matures there's a sliding window, moving 'old' farther away. I'll give two examples:

When my dad was a young adult, he had a thing for old cars. Specifically, the Ford Model A. His friends laughed at him for all those old cars he kept buying and selling. This was before and after he married my mom in 1954 - let's say it was the years 1951 to 1957 or so. That made those Model A cars anywhere from 20 to 30 years old at the time. But back then the automobile was a fast moving technology, with great changes between 1927 and 1957. Some of those Model A's didn't have an electric starter, for example. But nobody would laugh at someone who was buying and selling a 20 year old car now.

Similarly, early in the era of the Personal Computer, a two year old computer was completely outdated. Anyone trying to use a 8086 when there were 286 computers around was hopelessly out of step. But now, if you have a 8 year old computer you are just fine.

Back to the topic at hand: early tools were very different, because they were still trying to figure out what worked. Monkey wrenches, hex drive sockets - they are all vintage, bordering on antique. But once you get to the wartime tools, the design, metals, finish and function aren't that different than today. I have 1940's SK 1/2" drive SAE sockets mixed in with Pittsburgh Pro metric sockets in my toolbox. I hardly use the metric tools, because I'm mostly working on my 1970 Thunderbird - a car now 48 years old. But is it vintage?

 

[DadsTools]

I must say I side with a more liberal interpretation of what constitutes vintage. There really is no 'book' definition that applies across the board to all types and categories of collectibles--it differs from type to type.

The comments about modern computers is very influential. Those who grew up in the computer age see vintage in a completely different light. I still have my first cell phone on the shelf, circa 2000, a clunky old thing with the pull-out antenna. I'm sorry....that's vintage. Anyone saying among cell phone enthusiasts that this is a 'modern' phone would be laughed out ( I think they call them 'bricks'), unless you tried to make some sort of puritanical cerebral argument, which even then would be a bit fuzzy. My 1993 486 computer tower is, from a micro-computer viewpoint (not Univac or Sperry Rand and that stuff), pure vintage.

The rapidity of modern advancement influences all this. Folks in the early 1900s still using technology developed many decades before would have hardly seen them as vintage (take the cast iron coffee grinders for example). It would be hard to argue that any USA car still incorporating a carburetor isn't vintage. Or glass headlamps instead of plastic shrouds. Carbon steel wrenches with the old size marks prior to the across-the-flat measurements are all antiques to me. Magnetic audio/video tape is vintage, and so is a vinyl record--they're certainly not modern by today's standards. One could even make an argument that Craftsman USA end wrenches are vintage. Yet one looking forward from the 1700s would see any machine cut nail as thoroughly modern, even if it was made in the 1820s. Or any product made with interchangeable parts. And he'd be right.

To me, it's a matter of perspective. One perspective is an almost omniscient view where from on-high one's "gaze spans all the ages" at once and can assign a scale for all past decades and centuries. That would certainly be the purist view. And of course, the more time and money one has to accumulate really old and uncommon things, the more that group will argue against assigning such terms as 'vintage' to more common and recent objects more easily accessed by the pedestrian masses. There's nothing wrong with this at all, since it's a more substantive standard for what constitutes 'old' 'special' 'rare' 'discriminating' and the like. If it wasn't classified this way, it wouldn't be so 'special' to the serious collector.

I don't have such an overview. I am among those who perceive my viewpoint from having my feet firmly planted in the year 2018 and from there looking back into the past. From that perspective, anything that isn't made anymore but that falls into the category of "oldie but goodie" or "fondly remembered" could be reasonably seen as vintage. I'm with a previous poster who felt even 1990s Bonney tools are vintage--a Proto wrench from the same era may not be. If a buyer is searching online for a complete set of metric Bonney combo wrenches with pouch, I'd bet his reckoning is going to be more closely aligned with seeking out a 'vintage' item than a modern one.

Yes, this view might seem arbitrary. But to me, it's no more arbitrary than picking a number out of the sky and saying, "Only anything 50 years older or more is vintage." Why 50? Or like a FB group I participate in that states only Christmas items 40 years old or more are vintage. Why?

Anyway, guys, that's my read on it, for what it's worth.

 

[LXCam]

I don't feel the age much matters as much as "in original condition" when virtually unattainable but highly desirable.

 

[Toothaker]

...snip...
It would be hard to argue that any USA car still incorporating a carburetor isn't vintage. Or glass headlamps instead of plastic shrouds.

...snip...

Anyway, guys, that's my read on it, for what it's worth.

I like it! I figured my Thunderbird was vintage, but I couldn't quantify it.

Nice, post, DadsTools. You make a lot of good points.

 

[Fretters]

Vintage applies more to quality than age, IMHO. A vintage item is a good example of its kind. Age wise, it needn't necessarily be that old, but anything under 25 years old, for example, I would find it hard to term it vintage, even if it was good, but then again, if it's an item which has only existed for say twenty years, then the first produced items would define the time range.

 

[Gmonkee]

Vintage as in clothes, of generations past and not current fashion...

As in technology about the same except I know three generations of radio or tv and five in computers.

So from depression era clothes of my grandparents to 8 bit compus it is not a time frame match at all but it carries in my mind without a glitch.

I like tools best from steam era to the mid 30's. Old rusty junk most never look twice at really for s solid reason.
No profit margin in resale and near no user value.

To me modern starts mid 50's in tools when the concept we use today the strongest.

The manner and physical changes mark the generations more than a date or set time frame.

 

[elidas]

I like the 100-50 rule. That makes the stuff I bought new in the 70's not vintage. I was beginning to feel old. My main box is a Snap On I bought new in 1977.

 

[topp64]

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=vintage

Definition #2 seems to fit about 75% of what’s for sale on CL around here.

#7 is pretty good.

 

[LNKMK8]

Maybe its becuase I'm a bit younger, but I feel like 1980's and 1990's is "Classic", 1950's to 1970's is vintage, and another older than that is antique. Then again my parents wouldn't agree to me call them antiques

But I do agree that "vintage" gets overused and misused as much as "Rare" on eBay and other places.

 

[wolf_from_wv]

A for sale paper, the Bulletin Board, around here seems to go with 25 years being an antique for automobiles.

WV State Code says:

"Antique motor vehicle" means any motor vehicle which is more than twenty-five years old and is owned solely as a collector's item. "Antique motorcycle" means any motorcycle which is more than twenty-five years old and is owned solely as a collector's item.

"Classic motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle which is more than twenty-five years old and is registered pursuant to section three of this article and is used for general transportation.

http://www.wvlegislature.gov/wvcode/chapterentire.cfm?chap=17A&art=10&section=3a

There was a part of me that was saddened a bit the first time I saw a 1984 Ford ****** listed in the antique vehicle section of the paper...

 

[thehorse13]

I like the 50-100 rule personally. Then again, in my mind, 1968 still registers as 15 years ago. I guess I'm vintage too.

 

[BikerDad]

I still have my first cell phone on the shelf, circa 2000, a clunky old thing with the pull-out antenna. I'm sorry....that's vintage. Anyone saying among cell phone enthusiasts that this is a 'modern' phone would be laughed out ( I think they call them 'bricks'), unless you tried to make some sort of puritanical cerebral argument, which even then would be a bit fuzzy.

Nope, that's a modern phone. A vintage cell phone is a bag phone, i.e the generation just before the bricks. Mind you, I'm talking about the BIG bricks, the ones bigger than an old landline handset. (I only claim the bag phones as vintage because that is what my first cell phone was....)

 

[bonneyman]

I like the 50-100 rule personally. Then again, in my mind, 1968 still registers as 15 years ago. I guess I'm vintage too.

Yeah, that's probably a good rough timeframe.

I tend to think that if it's before WW1 (1914), that's antique. If it's before the 1960's, it's vintage. Just seems to me like WW1 and the space program were each major technological leaps, separating what came before and after. Although I guess WW2 was sort of like that, too.

 

[Gmonkee]

WW2 was a point in time where standardized machines and a relatively standardized tool kit were key to any sort of victory.

Men from all places were shipped around the globe to be introduced to new standards in a way their lives depended on it.

And when the boys returned home they had broader vision of how things could be. No more was the old way the only way now.

That war changed a whole lot of ideas in the mechanical arts.