What to have built?

[naturalgas]

newbie here, I"m in metrowest Ma. and being recently retired, I'm looking to put some type of barn/garage in my backyard to play around with my passion of cars and bikes. I've been checking this forum for ideas but confused with pole barn or other constuction methods. Pole barn less costly? Can I even consider this in northeast? Also opinions on metal vs stick build. I want it to look nice but not looking to break the bank. I do have a couple acre lot and room for a good size one. Looking to fit about five cars, lift tractor and the usual tools. Thanks in advance for any advice or comments. Jim

 

[theoldwizard1]

Pole barn less costly?

If you put in a concrete floor, the costs are similar.

Also opinions on metal vs stick build.

Are you referring to the exterior siding, because pole barns are typically wood.

I want it to look nice but not looking to break the bank.

Metal siding can look good (IMHO) especially on larger building. It take multiple colors.

I do have a couple acre lot and room for a good size one. Looking to fit about five cars, lift tractor and the usual tools.

Your biggest decisions up front are 1) size, 2) heating and cooling.

What type of heating fuel are available ? Solid fuel (wood, coal) is the cheapest, but also a lot of hassle. Natural gas is a good fuel, from installation and operational costs. Electric resistance, oil and propane all **** ! Maybe cheap to install, but expensive to operate. One (or two) mini-split heat pumps are a good alternative IF your temps don't get down below ZERO F a lot.

Depending on the fuel, you need to decide if in-floor radiant heat is a priority. It is, by far, the most comfortable heat,

Something that big, you might want to section off into a heated and unheated areas.

 

[Cyberbear]

I've been retired since 1999 and ended up with a 2400 sq/ft shop/garage for working on old trucks and doing woodworking. Out here it's mostly stick built on a mono slab, tall walls and stucco on the outside. Unfortunately, the budget mostly determines what you end up with but try not to cut any corners, if possible, you're only hurting yourself in the long run. My shop was built like a house and looks good inside and out. Also, using roof trusses allows you to put walls where you want them and can be moved if necessary. Otherwise, let your imagination guide you.

 

[naturalgas]

Thanks, A builder is going to show me a few metal bldgs he put up. Also a couple stick built. I will decide and move ahead from there. As far as heat I'll probably put in a Hot Dog Unit htr on propane. No natural gas here.Bummer. I'm a retired nat gas tech. I have oil in house.

 

[MagKarl]

The larger you want to go, the more a pole barn saves in excavation and foundation cost compared to stick frame. Footings and stem walls are not free. Do some research into cost in your area before you believe what you read on the internet.

 

[captain14]

Thanks, A builder is going to show me a few metal bldgs he put up. Also a couple stick built. I will decide and move ahead from there. As far as heat I'll probably put in a Hot Dog Unit htr on propane. No natural gas here.Bummer. I'm a retired nat gas tech. I have oil in house.

I am not positive but I believe I have read on more than one thread here when you heat with propane you run into moisture problems in the garage like rusting, etc. One of the more knowledgable members can correct me if I am wrong.

 

[naturalgas]

I can't imagine why. They are direct vent sealed combustion units. Should be no differant than nat gas other than cost of fuel. The main reason is I'm going to add a whole house generator off propane.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I can't imagine why. They are direct vent sealed combustion units. Should be no differant than nat gas other than cost of fuel.

Previously you had said you were just going to use a "hot dog". That style is NOT vented, which lead to captain14's comment.

The main reason is I'm going to add a whole house generator off propane.

Then propane is a good choice for fuel for your new building. Not cheap, but better than oil !

You need to decide about the radiant heated floor, even if it is only 1/3 - 1/2 of the area. If you plan on being in there for a couple of hours a day, you will love it.

I hope you plan on running electric to the new building off of your existing panel and not a separate meter of a double lugged meter base. Can't do standby power that way.

Depending on where the electric comes into your property, you might want to put the meter and "main" load center/breaker panel in the new building and then run the house as a "sub" off of that. You could easily mount the generator behind your new building.

A neighbor did this. Worked out great.

 

[owley601]

As far as your electric goes it depends on how far your shop is from your house. If it's to far distance wise you'll need to run two services because of line loss.

 

[naturalgas]

Meeting with builder and architect in a couple days to look over site. But just in conversation with builder he mentioned 50Amp elec service for new buildg. I'm thinking 100 amp. It is going to be 36x40x12 with 2 post lift, compressor, heat, maybe ac. I would think I need 100amp. Any thoughts?

 

[hippie2cams]

I have 200 amp service in my garage, but that includes air compressor, welding machines, and various other tools, plus 3.5t heat pump for heating and cooling

 

[FTWingRiders]

I'm in central Mass, I have a 44x44 and I went with a separate 200 amp service. Well worth it in my opinion.Trust me, go as big as your yard and budget allows, I'm already missing even another 4 feet.

 

[coljar]

I have 200 amp coming from the street and it splits after the meter. My garage is comparable in size to yours and I already have everything you mentioned except AC and I wouldn't even think of trying to do it on 50 amps. My heat is nat. gas, but once I get the AC, I'll still be ok with 100 amps.

 

[naturalgas]

I'm in central Mass, I have a 44x44 and I went with a separate 200 amp service. Well worth it in my opinion.Trust me, go as big as your yard and budget allows, I'm already missing even another 4 feet.

I'm with you on size. I don't want the should've, could've later on. I want to do this right.I think I gave the builder the impression I have a smaller budget than I can really spend. thinking I didn't want to show all my cards. Maybe wrong move on my part. I will clarify with him and architech when we meet. Thanks for advice guys. Jim

 

[58Yeoman]

The confusion on the 'hot dog' heater vs 'Hot Dawg' is that the HD is vented, whereas the hot dog might mean salamander style, not vented. You will get a lot of humidity with a non-vented heater.

 

[naturalgas]

The confusion on the 'hot dog' heater vs 'Hot Dawg' is that the HD is vented, whereas the hot dog might mean salamander style, not vented. You will get a lot of humidity with a non-vented heater.

Yes I understand. I spelt it wrong. I'm a retired HVAC tech. I was talking Modine ceiling hung (hot dawg) unit htr on propane. No Nat. Gas here which is a bummer. It is the least exspensive fuel in this area.

 

[Fueler]

agreed. 200 amp for sure AND as many circuits as you can fit in a panel.
Can't have too many circuits as I discovered.
You will want some spaces for 220. Welder, AC and whatever else you work with.

Have had metal frame buildings. Didn't like them. PITA to outfit inside. There is just nothing to attach to so you have to frame it out first. If there was any savings over wood it was lost and then some in fitting it out.

Currently have Morton pole barn and would do it again if I need any serious size and height.

 

[Jagmandave]

How many electrical things can one guy operate at a time?

A/C doesn't draw that much power.....

Welder does, but even with the A/C running and a lot of lights and using the welder, I don't see usage anywhere close to 100A.....

It all depends on what you'll be doing out there, but again - one man working alone it's hard to use a lot of amps at a time.

 

[naturalgas]

keep them comming. I'm taking it all in.

 

[James-W]

Some of those metal buildings look really nice and they seem to be well made. But as far as cost goes, if you have a concrete floor and you finish off the inside of the building, the cost will be roughly the same as a stick built shop. Personally, if it were me, I would prefer the stick built shop. But that is just my opinion and we all know what opinions are like.

 

[naturalgas]

I"m so exited! The wife said I'm like a little boy with his first bycycle comming. Met with builder and architech this am and I'm going with stick built 36x40x12 garage. Some great ideas were flowing. I can't wait for the fun to begin.

 

[marksland]

Did you end up going through Littleton Lumber for your architect? Look forward to seeing your progress.

 

[naturalgas]

No. I went with a local semi retired builder that I see all the time in coffee shop.We were chatting and it came up that I wanted a garage built. Long story short, he had me go look at one he had recently built for a friend's son and it was nice. I thought he was fully retired in mid 70's, but he will take mine on. He lined me up with the architech he has used for years. I've known him for years and he is a super honest straight shooter so I feel confident all will go well. We are just starting the process. It will be a 36x40x12 stick build. Room for six cars plus.

 

[65cayne]

When are you starting?

I want to know when to come looking for pictures...


I grew up in the Connecticut River Valley. Nice area but I can't afford to move back.

 

[naturalgas]

The builder and I just roughly staked out the four corners an hour ago. The architech is on vaca for two weeks. I'm having trees cut in next week and should be digging by end of month give or take. I'll have the cooler dry days of fall to finish the inside and landscaping. When the time comes I'll need help on posting pics.

 

[naturalgas]

Slow start. Hole is dug and forms will be started in two days

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[naturalgas]

Footings were poured today

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[marksland]

A good start, looking forward to the progress of your build!!

 

[naturalgas]

Foundation walls poured https://vimeo.com/144266738

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[macdabs]

Looks good. I just read this thread and wanted to tell you that if you went with a coal boiler and your house is with in 250' feet or less you could heat both and feed your oil boiler also.. I'm on my fifth year doing that with a heated floor and love it! I also added a propane generator and you can run both your house and shop if you size it right. I have a 400 amp split service at the house and feed two 200 amp transfer disconnects one for the house and one for the shop. You could do one 100 amp and one 200 amp if you wanted to also. I went with a 22Kw air cooled Generac that is over killed for all the electricity I would need in a power outage. The disconnect transfer panel eliminates a disconnect at your shop breaker panel .

 

[dcmus]

Another vote for 200 amp service.

 

[UpstateNY]

Another vote for 200 amp service.

One person, working alone, no. Overkill to the max. What are you going to do, weld simultaneously with 2 welders ?! Modern lighting takes very little power to operate. I've got 100 amp, I'll never come close to using it. P=ExI, do the math, you think you'll ever use 48,000 watts of power simultaneously ? You won't, ever.

 

[mmb617]

I have 100 amps to my 4 bay garage, and can't imagine a scenario where that wouldn't be adequate in a residential setting.

 

[naturalgas]

Coal boiler intrigues me. Are they not a pain in the *** to keep burning? I have 200 amp in house. So 100 amp for garage..


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[truckman5000]

metro west? with land, were do you live? fellow HVAC guy

 

[macdabs]

Coal boiler intrigues me. Are they not a pain in the *** to keep burning? I have 200 amp in house. So 100 amp for garage..


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Not at all, mine has a hopper feed like a pellet stove and is gravity feed with an automatic ash hopper. I spend maybe 3 minutes a day in the really cold days. You could go 2- 3 day without messing with it depending on the heat load. I heat about 7500 square feet on about $1800.00 in coal per year with my shop at 3200 sq ft at 65* in floor heat 6-8 inch slab. The other 4300 square feet is my house that I have a 250 ft underground run from the shop feeding the house. I plumbed the existing oil boiler in the system as a backup or use it in mild days . My electric bill is even less with the coal boiler over the oil boiler .

 

[naturalgas]

metro west? with land, were do you live? fellow HVAC guy

Upton, on the Westboro line. I joke that it's like living in New Hampshire but close to everything.


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[naturalgas]

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[naturalgas]

Foundation is done and back filled .


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[naturalgas]

Mcdabs, would you tell me the make of your coal boiler?


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