Wheel Balancing Really Necessary?

[seagull369]

I know it sounds like heresy, but I've been wondering if you have a nice undamaged wheel, which is squeaky clean on the inside, and a brand new tire, how important is it really to balance the thing? It's tempting to think after 100 or years manufacturers are probably putting out some pretty balanced stuff by now (In house Chinese stuff perhaps an exception) and perhaps it's no big thing to skip the machine.

For those that think it is still important, if you have any experience with balancing beads, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on them (or it)

 

[L.Cheapo]

Put a new set of tires on without balancing and you'll find out very quickly why its still necessary. There are still light and heavy spots on the wheel and tire.

While tires have become extremely resilient, they're not perfect.

 

[PoorOwner]

With the addition of tpms, the wheel assembly is already not balanced.
The tires are not evenly weighted or even perfectly round.

You will probably not notice 15-20 grams out of balance.
I would say a lot of cars out there driving without perfect balance as the tire wears it changes the balance but they are not brought to do a rebalance until the next set of tires.

Rock crawling at 5 mph doesn’t matter too.

 

[seagull369]

Put a new set of tires on without balancing and you'll find out very quickly why its still necessary.

Actually, I did about a year ago. No vibration even at speeds of 70mph. No cupping or irregular wear. Ran my hand down the tread and feels fine, too. I thought The yellow circles stamped on the tire are supposed meet up with the valve to compensate for the weight of it on that side (though maybe not for the added TPMS). Anyway, maybe I got lucky (so far)

 

[mvusse]

My weekend toy is on 37" tires and *heavy* wheels (each wheel/tire combo weighs 160 pounds) completely unbalanced and it goes down the highway 80 mph without any noticeable vibration. My daily driver on 29" tires and simple steel wheels drove me nuts at 55 mph when one of the weights fell off. Made everything on the inside rattle.

So I'm guessing the smaller the tire, the more it matters.

 

[Air21]

If you think you know better than physics then go ahead and skip it. Balancing a rotating mass will never be a bad thing.

 

[American Locomotive]

Some tires and wheel combos need minimal weight to balance. Others need a lot of weight. There's a ton of variance in tire manufacturing. In my experience, Larger diameter tires and wheels are more likely to suffer issues from not being balanced than smaller ones, but smaller cars are more likely to be affected by out of balance wheels.

Yes, it is necessary. If it wasn't, car manufacturers wouldn't do it from the factory.

 

[seagull369]

I don't think I know better, just was wondering what you all thought about it.... and sharing my limited experience when I didn't do it.

 

[SuzukiGS750EZ]

Tires can have more rubber in some places then others, maybe a casting line on a wheel in one place or another. TPMS. All those differences add up. Some tire manufacturers put dots on the tires to align the dot with the valve stem so you get it closer balanced than not. It's been very rare that I've seen a tire/ wheel not need weight, but I can't say I've never had one that took nothing. I mounted tires along side the rest of the job if the customer needed tires, but haven't done as many as say a tire shop. All I know is, the customers who use fix a flat and don't warn you when you pull the valve... need to be taught a lesson lol

 

[pstemari]

Not sure why larger tires would be affected more given the same amount of imbalance. The centrifugal force is inversely proportional to radius:

F = mv²/R

m is the imbalance in kilograms
v is the speed of travel in meters/second
R is the radius of the wheel in meters
F is the centrifugal force in Newtons



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[ajchien]

Not sure why larger tires would be affected more given the same amount of imbalance. The centrifugal force is inversely proportional to radius:

F = mv²/R

m is the imbalance in kilograms
v is the speed of travel in meters/second
R is the radius of the wheel in meters
F is the centrifugal force in Newtons



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Let me take an amateur stab at it ...

Probably has something to do with the v. The further out in R you are, the greater your v.

V = w x r

I see centrifugal force also written f = m w^2 r^2 / r = m w^2 r

W = angular velocity

So in a wheel, as you change R, the V changes too ... since the w stays the same. Although I’m sure reality has to be more complex than that equation, since the whole wheel is also moving down a road.

 

[mr.lemons]

On my previous car I lightly sanded the wheels and repainted them. Was surprised that they then vibrated quite a bit on the motorway so needed re-balancing. Shows that wheels only need to be a tiny bit off balance to be an issue.

 

[gungatim]

OP, I use balance beads exclusively. Much smoother than any machine balance as it's dynamic. First thing I do is pull the weights off the wheels when I mount tires and put about the same weight of air soft pellets in. Extra doesn't hurt but not enough will be out of balance. Only had to break the bead and add an extra handful once on my big truck.

 

[MushCreek]

I had a high speed vibration in a 3/4 ton van. I bought new tires, and went back a couple times to get the balance checked. They never figured it out, so I popped the hub cap off and found a mismatched lug nut. I put a matching one on- problem solved. Even at the small radius of the lug pattern, it was enough to affect the balance. Why the tire dealer didn't notice, I have no idea. Seriously; they did not notice this!

 

[gearhead1]

I had a high speed vibration in a 3/4 ton van. I bought new tires, and went back a couple times to get the balance checked. They never figured it out, so I popped the hub cap off and found a mismatched lug nut. I put a matching one on- problem solved. Even at the small radius of the lug pattern, it was enough to affect the balance. Why the tire dealer didn't notice, I have no idea. Seriously; they did not notice this!

They noticed it, they just didn’t have enough understanding that it could be a problem. Knowledge does not equal understanding.

 

[American Locomotive]

Not sure why larger tires would be affected more given the same amount of imbalance. The centrifugal force is inversely proportional to radius:

F = mv²/R

m is the imbalance in kilograms
v is the speed of travel in meters/second
R is the radius of the wheel in meters
F is the centrifugal force in Newtons

I think it's more that larger tires tend to have more manufacturing variances. Every large off-road tire I've seen usually needed lots of balance weights.

 

[sberry]

Mostly wheels today. I see the tire man remove weights, put on machine and put same weight back on. I sometimes change out used tires, leave old weights on.

 

[katit]

They don't balance tires in drift cars for example.

 

[Packard V8]

Yes, tires are more likely to be round and close to balanced today.
Yes, wheels are more likely to be round and true in plane today.
No, I'd never install a new set of tires without balancing them. I've only been a tire guy for fifty years and it's worth my money.

FWIW, some people have such numb butts, they can go down the road in a vehicle vibrating terribly and just crank up the volume and smile. Others are hypersensitive to vibration. I've had customers who complained of vibrations I couldn't feel. For those, we'd true the tire/wheel by shaving the high spots and then an on-the-car balancing system which balanced tire, wheel and brake as a unit.

jack vines

 

[seagull369]

I think part of the reason I skipped the balancing is because I really don't know what shops bother to calibrate their machines or even if they know they're supposed to. Makes you wonder if the wheel is better balanced BEFORE it's handed it over. I remember years ago Sears got in some hot water for balancing wheels on machines that had to be hit with a mallet to function or were largely inoperative.

First thing I do is pull the weights off the wheels when I mount tires and put about the same weight of air soft pellets in.

What if your rim had no weights on it to start with?

 

[phule]

Had a old beater saab going to the scrap yard. Stripped the good run ber off & through some.used junks on. That thing shook like the wheels were octagon until about 45. Then it was tolerable. My car gets a normal dynamic balance(weights inside & outside edge)truck gets a static (sticky weights behing the spoke. Mud tires get beads. Never had an issue on personal vehicles. As stated above some people are very sensitive to vibration(some to the point of phantom vinrations) some people could have a wheel coming off & they would never know(think that noise just started this morning customers)

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[pstemari]

Let me take an amateur stab at it ...

Probably has something to do with the v. The further out in R you are, the greater your v.

The v in that equation is the velocity at the rim of the wheel, which is just the speed that you're traveling down the road. It's going to be independent of how big the wheel is. Small wheels will have a higher angular velocity, but the velocity at the rim is going to be the same.

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[seagull369]

That thing shook like the wheels were octagon until about 45. Then it was tolerable.

I could never quite wrap my head around that weirdness: How something can wobble at a lower speed but then smooth out at a higher one. I have a weedwacker that does that.. Gives me carpal tunnel at slow speeds then is smooth as butter at high throttle.

 

[mcbane]

My weekend toy is on 37" tires and *heavy* wheels (each wheel/tire combo weighs 160 pounds) completely unbalanced and it goes down the highway 80 mph without any noticeable vibration. My daily driver on 29" tires and simple steel wheels drove me nuts at 55 mph when one of the weights fell off. Made everything on the inside rattle.

So I'm guessing the smaller the tire, the more it matters.

My toy has load range L 44” tires. Each wheel and tire combo is 350 lbs. Bad vibes at highway speeds. Are you suggesting if I replace the small tires with something beefier, maybe 55” or so, things will be smoother?


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[sjvicker]

My toy has load range L 44” tires. Each wheel and tire combo is 350 lbs. Bad vibes at highway speeds. Are you suggesting if I replace the small tires with something beefier, maybe 55” or so, things will be smoother?


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Sounds like the solution to your problem is bigger tires

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[American Locomotive]

I could never quite wrap my head around that weirdness: How something can wobble at a lower speed but then smooth out at a higher one. I have a weedwacker that does that.. Gives me carpal tunnel at slow speeds then is smooth as butter at high throttle.

Harmonics and resonant frequencies. If your vibration frequency matches the "natural frequency" of the system, it will be greatly amplified.

They don't balance tires in drift cars for example.

Drift cars aren't worried about things like noise, vibration and harshness (NVH).

 

[Aileron]

I know it sounds like heresy, but I've been wondering if you have a nice undamaged wheel, which is squeaky clean on the inside, and a brand new tire, how important is it really to balance the thing? It's tempting to think after 100 or years manufacturers are probably putting out some pretty balanced stuff by now (In house Chinese stuff perhaps an exception) and perhaps it's no big thing to skip the machine.

For those that think it is still important, if you have any experience with balancing beads, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on them (or it)

"I think part of the reason I skipped the balancing is because I really don't know what shops bother to calibrate their machines or even if they know they're supposed to"

?? . No offense, but you asked the question if the tires should be balanced and then said you unsure of shops knowing they need to calibrate their machines. If you know they need to keep their machines calibrated I would think you know you need to balance a wheel and tire combo. Even new tires can get thrown out as no good on a road force balancer. The problem is finding someone that actually gives a **** while doing the balance.

 

[rice rocket]

Lots of conspiracy theorists in here.

 

[vavet]

I knew someone with a basic Ford Ranger that he kept around for his teenagers to drive. He put good quality tires on it, but didn’t want them balanced. His logic was that if the vibration started at about 50 mph, then it was a disincentive to go faster than that...perfect for teenaged drivers.

 

[Showkey]

Agree on finding someone that cares.......or has the skills and knowledge.

Modern balancing machine spec:

Roller force. Variable up to 1,250 lbs (567 kg) Capacity.
runout accuracy. 0.002 in (0.051 mm)
Imbalance resolution. ± 0.01 oz (0.28 g)
Placement accuracy. 512 positions, ± 0.35°
Balancing speed. 300 rpm.

 

[seagull369]

?? . No offense, but you asked the question if the tires should be balanced and then said you unsure of shops knowing they need to calibrate their machines. If you know they need to keep their machines calibrated I would think you know you need to balance a wheel and tire combo.

Looks like I'm busted. Just thought it was time for a good flame war, I guess

For reals, tho, I think a balance can be a fine idea. Was just curious if skipping it (under the circumstances I mentioned) wouldn't be the biggest deal ever, esp. if using a non-knobby, average sidewalled tire. 245/65/17 in my case.

 

[Mikeske]

Looks like I'm busted. Just thought it was time for a good flame war, I guess

For reals, tho, I think a balance can be a fine idea. Was just curious if skipping it (under the circumstances I mentioned) wouldn't be the biggest deal ever, esp. if using a non-knobby, average sidewalled tire. 245/65/17 in my case.

For the minimal cost of having the wheel tire balanced why not. Years ago I had a tire shop and I always included the balance in the price of the tire. I advertised it as free balance but it was already added in to the quote I gave the customer. In those days there was only the European tires that had the balance dot on the tire and I trained all the folks who mounted the tire to put the dot next to the valve stem. On American and Asian made tires there was no dots but if the tire required over 1.5 ounces of weight on a passenger car tire and 4 ounces on a truck tire, I have them take the wheel/tire over to the tire machine and release the air break down the bead and rotate the tire 180 degrees and then rebalance the wheel/tire. In 90% of the cases the weight would be quarter to half less then what it was first balanced at.

IN all the years of working on vehicles I never seen a perfectly balanced wheel tire combination. The smallest amount was 1/4 ounce on one side of the wheel. We also have done something that is no longer done and that is a high speed balance on the vehicle, very few vehicles needed it but mainly Jaguar, BMW and Mercedes and some pickups with lifts and high flotation tires. This also balanced every component of the rotating mass on that particular location.

 

[bwringer]

In the world of motorcycle tires, many of the higher-end manufacturers are producing tires that are perfectly balanced from the factory. Avon, many Michelins and Metzelers, etc. No dots on the tires.

So basically, balance the bare tubeless wheel once and as long as you keep installing Avons or whatever you don't need to worry about it again.

And motorcycle wheel manufacturing has gotten much more accurate in recent years as well. On older bikes with tubeless wheels, the bare wheel with a valve stem is often balanced or very close. On older bikes with tubeless wheels, you need to check the bare wheel because sometimes the true heavy spot isn't the valve stem.

Of course, with tubes that all goes out the window; the lump of rubber around the valve stem pretty much guarantees that will be the heavy spot.

It's also debatable how much difference balancing makes. But most riders would never notice an ounce or ounce and a half at any speed achievable on the street.

 

[Handyandy23]

Some tires and wheel combos need minimal weight to balance. Others need a lot of weight. There's a ton of variance in tire manufacturing. In my experience, Larger diameter tires and wheels are more likely to suffer issues from not being balanced than smaller ones, but smaller cars are more likely to be affected by out of balance wheels.

Yes, it is necessary. If it wasn't, car manufacturers wouldn't do it from the factory.

^All of this

If you've ever worked at a shop doing tires, you know there is a huge range in the amount of weight needed. If you're mounting fairly low profile tires that are a quality name-brand like Michelin, they usually need very little weight to balance out. If you're mounting truck tires with a big sidewall, especially a cheaper / off brand, you can need a ton of weight to balance them.

For the minimal cost of balancing, in comparison with the cost of the tires themselves, not sure why you would ever decline balancing. Especially since you do it once and most likely never have to touch them again. All you need is one bad one to shake like crazy or cause some kind of uneven wear, and you're out more money than if you just balanced all four.

 

[C4VETTE]

My weekend toy is on 37" tires and *heavy* wheels (each wheel/tire combo weighs 160 pounds) completely unbalanced and it goes down the highway 80 mph without any noticeable vibration. My daily driver on 29" tires and simple steel wheels drove me nuts at 55 mph when one of the weights fell off. Made everything on the inside rattle.

So I'm guessing the smaller the tire, the more it matters.

Are you sure they didn't use balance beads? I have a REALLY hard time believing you got a set of 37s that didn't need any weights. I have owned all sizes of offroad tires and NEVER experienced this.

 

[dledinger]

I rarely balance wheels that stay local. Mostly farm trucks that are lucky if they hit 45mph.

But...the idea that manufacturing is precise enough to preclude weights isn’t correct, in my opinion. My 2018 Ram needed 3.75oz weights on two wheels, 3.0oz on another, and just a quarter oz on the fourth. In other words, they’re all over the map.

 

[engineer2]

Imbalance will also wear out suspension components faster. Vibration will shorten car battery life too. Sometimes you can't feel a slight imbalance.

 

[Stuart in MN]

They don't balance tires in drift cars for example.

When the lifespan of your tires is measured in minutes, balancing them may not be a priority.

 

[Schurkey]

The issues are "Tire wear" and "Vibration", which also includes "operator comfort" and "Service life of vehicle components other than the tires".

1. Beads may correct static (single-plane) imbalance but they won't correct dynamic (two-plane) imbalance.

2. There's dozens of things that can cause vibration, and half-a-dozen affect the tire/wheel assembly. "Balancing" is the easiest of all of them to address. And by "easiest", of course what I mean is "raking-in-the-money PROFITABLE". The dumbest guy in the shop can do it successfully--if he can count to eight (lug nuts) and work a torque wrench, he's golden for 95% of vehicles on the road. Some shops still use those hateful torque-sticks on the end of a "rattle wrench", so using a torque wrench is somewhat optional (NOT on MY vehicle, it isn't.) Ideally, he'd be smart enough to recognize that if you break the lug stud removing the lug nut, the rest of them on that side of the car may be reverse thread. If it wasn't for liability lawyers, actual retarded people could balance tires. In fact, I'm fairly convinced that some do.

3. The fact that there's other issues at play may be the reason that sometimes "balancing wheels" still doesn't fix the real problem. Bent wheels, out-of-balance brake rotors or drums, bent axle, overlapped belts during tire construction (sidewall stiffness variation), non-obvious broken belts (they'll become obvious soon enough), failing to clean the mud from the inside of the wheel, rocks in the tread, existing tire wear--and the list goes on and on--are problems that can cause vibration or tire wear even if the tires are "balanced", and that's only the problem areas that are hanging off the end of the axle or spindle assembly.

4. Given that it's harder than ever to buy tires made in America, or even in North America or the Free World, the idea that they're becoming "more precise" is somewhat hilarious.


YES, I balance the tires. But I also understand that "balanced" is the BEGINNING, not the END of maximizing service life and comfort.

 

[nicks78camaro]

Are you sure they didn't use balance beads? I have a REALLY hard time believing you got a set of 37s that didn't need any weights. I have owned all sizes of offroad tires and NEVER experienced this.

I had a powerstroke with 38x15.5x15 tires, no weights or beads, no shake.