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Who here won this box for $6k

35mastr

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If you really want to stay in the box market. There are those few that you sell on the cuff. If you dont dig into there pockets. The next guy will.

You want to stay in your customers pocket so he cannot afford to pay another truck.
 
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Skyline

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I am buying a box next weekend. It's a KRL tripple bank filled with tools. Based on the discussions here, I did a UCC search. This was in the state of NJ. The online search cost me $27. (It did come up with one hit plus a couple of other pages). I wish they emailed this report out right away....I think I will get it mailed to me in a few days. Hopefully before my appointment to go to pick up the box. I'm very curious to see what it looks like.
 

Skyline

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@Krusty:

Do most dealers do some actual rent-to-own paperwork for truck credit? Or is it just informal?
 

Hiball

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you would be amazed.......

even company finance is a weekly payment.


there are lot's of mechanics with less than stellar credit who make thier payments to the tool man.

I expect thats true, Most customers have to have tools to earn a living so its your playing the odds that they will continue to make payments. Not to get everyone confused again, Toolboxes are not normally via Truck credit but a outside source where you get your money via credit or payment. I expect Truck Credit financing on toolboxes could be permitted if there was a sizeable downpayment etc but defintely a risk on tieing up your money or possibly having them skip town.

If you really want to stay in the box market. There are those few that you sell on the cuff. If you dont dig into there pockets. The next guy will.

You want to stay in your customers pocket so he cannot afford to pay another truck.

I understand With Risk comes Reward. If a Truck guy isnt selling tools regardless if its credit or cash he isnt making money.
 

35mastr

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The idea with selling one in the cuff is to get all of your cost up front or more if possible. Then its just about collecting your profits.
 

southernfriedcj

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Yes, the toolbox can be repossessed upon default but the only parties to that contract are the original buyer (seller) and the finance company. The third party buyer is not party to that and repossession as to him would have to go thru a civil action.

So you are saying the third party is not receiving stolen goods and would have to have a civil suit filed against him if the Company (Matco, ect) wanted their collateral back?
 

krusty the clown

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@Krusty:

Do most dealers do some actual rent-to-own paperwork for truck credit? Or is it just informal?

there is an agreement on the reciept that is supposed to be signed (i posted the language in another thread).

i never had anyone sign nor have i ever signed so i guess it's informal.

i guess if it had been told to me that it is technically rent to own, i would have though.
 

Skyline

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So here's an update that really surprised me. I did a NJ UCC1 search on the box I was going to buy Sunday, and a hit did come up for Snap-on. Snap-on credit did initially tell me that I was in the clear buying this box. But the language of the UCC bothered me. BTW, this was on the "extra pages" you could order for $1/page, not the actual UCC hit:

Collateral: Purchase money security interest in automotive tools and equipment, more specifically, listed on credit sales contract or equipment lease no. listed below. In addition to the purchase money security interest granted in the collateral listed on the referenced the collateral shall include all items of tools and equipment of debtor, whether now owned or hereafter acquired from a Snap-on dealer, and any and all goods and equipment manufactured or distributed from a Snap-on dealer, and any of its affiliates, or bearing the Snap-on or Sun Electric trademarks or logos, together with all proceeds (including insurance proceeds or claims), accessions, attachments, additions, substitutions, and replacements to and of such items (the foregoing and the collateral listed on the referenced credit sales contract or equipment lease are collectively referred to as "collateral"). Credit sales contract No. XXXXXXX***

After another call to Snap-on credit, I walked away from this purchase. This guy had a large unpaid balance with them. Here the way they explained it: Let's say you buy a big $10k KRL toolbox. Pay it off 100%. Then 5 years after paying off the box, you buy a $6900 Snap-on scan tool. You default on the scanner after one payment. According to this agreement, Snap on can not only reposses the scanner, but they can take your paid-for KRL toolbox as well. I could certainly envision where the used value of both items would barely equal the value you owe on the scanner. But you are really signing with the devil with these Snap-on contracts!
 
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daveblank

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After another call to Snap-on credit, I walked away from this purchase. This guy had a large unpaid balance with them. Here the way they explained it: Let's say you buy a big $10k KRL toolbox. Pay it off 100%. Then 5 years after paying off the box, you buy a $6900 Snap-on scan tool. You default on the scanner after one payment. According to this agreement, Snap on can not only reposses the scanner, but they can take you paid-for KRL toolbox as well. I could certainly envision where the used value of both item would barely equal the value you owe on the scanner. But you are really signing with the devil with these Snap-on contracts!


I think they explained it semi-wrong. From what I understand, if you pay the box down to $0.00, it's yours. Now lets say you still owe $.01 & then buy the scanner. The toolbox is still on the same contract & it has officially not been paid off. This would be when they could take the box.
 

Skyline

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I think they explained it semi-wrong. From what I understand, if you pay the box down to $0.00, it's yours. Now lets say you still owe $.01 & then buy the scanner. The toolbox is still on the same contract & it has officially not been paid off. This would be when they could take the box.

Well maybe....but if you read the language above, it is exactly what I was told. I copied that word for word from the UCC seach result. HOWEVER, this does seem highly irregular to me, and I wonder what some of our GJ lawyers would have to say about this. It was this statement that bothered me:

the collateral shall include all items of tools and equipment of debtor, whether now owned or hereafter acquired from a Snap-on dealer, and any and all goods and equipment manufactured or distributed from a Snap-on dealer, and any of its affiliates, or bearing the Snap-on or Sun Electric trademarks or logos,

MrMark..are you out there to weigh in on this????
 
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scooby074

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Well maybe....but if you read the language above, it is exactly what I was told. I copied that word for word from the UCC seach result. HOWEVER, this does seem highly irregular to me, and I wonder what some of our GJ lawyers would have to say about this. It was this statement that bothered me:

the collateral shall include all items of tools and equipment of debtor, whether now owned or hereafter acquired from a Snap-on dealer, and any and all goods and equipment manufactured or distributed from a Snap-on dealer, and any of its affiliates, or bearing the Snap-on or Sun Electric trademarks or logos,

MrMark..are you out there to weigh in on this????

I think daves right. If the box is paid in full then its yours. If you bought the scanner separate then they can repossess only the scanner for non payment.

If the box was used for collateral, then thats different it may be able to be repossessed.
 

Happyshooter

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Sort of, yes. For the consumer there is a doctrine that limits the creditor's ability to keep doing stuff like that in most states. For a business man, though, not so much.

If Snap-On told you in writing it was okay to buy and they don't have a lien, you are mostly in the clear. In most states an email is a binding writing, so an email release is okay. (There is a lot of strangeness with on-line writing legally, starting with the fact that the feds passed a law but allow the states to supersede that law if the state law has certain provisions). Safest of all would be a UCC release by them and proof they filed it (or give you premission in writing to file for them).

As for filings of stuff a creditor didn't sell the debtor, a debtor can (mostly) grant any sort of security interest he chooses.

Example: You are running your auto shop and you come up to me in the bar and I agree to loan you 10k because you don't trust the banks and you need a float while you collect on some invoices. You already owe Snap-On on your tools, the computer company on your computer system, and the part supplier on your parts inventory. All three filed proper UCCs.

You can grant me position two on all three of those things, PLUS you can grant me position one on everything else in your shop including intangibles like your accounts receivable. The money I lent you has nothing to do with your waiting room furniture, but I can still get position one as long as you haven't granted anyone else a security interest (I can't get PMSI, since I didn't advance the purchase price, so if you wanted to scam me you could buy it from the seller and grant him a PMSI, and then offer it to me quickly as collateral before the PMSI creditor files, and I would lose).

Something else interesting that comes up enough to be aware of in the auto/parts and medical worlds is consignment filings. I run parts supplier and you needs parts on a constant basis. I want to be your supplier, and you really don't want to carry me by buying the parts before you need them. I set up a parts area at your place and keep it stocked. Your people come and pull when you need something, at which time you owe me for it (usually a short net to make up for me doing all this for you). I can file a notice under the UCC (and notify all senior creditors in writing what we are doing) and when you go bankrupt I still own my parts. Please note this will not stop a judge from ordering me to let you have the parts, but then I would get adequate assurance of payment.

This didn't work for GM and chrysler, just one of the many reasons those were the dirtiest bankruptcy proceedings ever.

Collateral: Purchase money security interest in automotive tools and equipment, more specifically, listed on credit sales contract or equipment lease no. listed below. In addition to the purchase money security interest granted in the collateral listed on the referenced the collateral shall include all items of tools and equipment of debtor, whether now owned or hereafter acquired from a Snap-on dealer, and any and all goods and equipment manufactured or distributed from a Snap-on dealer, and any of its affiliates, or bearing the Snap-on or Sun Electric trademarks or logos, together with all proceeds (including insurance proceeds or claims), accessions, attachments, additions, substitutions, and replacements to and of such items (the foregoing and the collateral listed on the referenced credit sales contract or equipment lease are collectively referred to as "collateral"). Credit sales contract No. XXXXXXX***

After another call to Snap-on credit, I walked away from this purchase. This guy had a large unpaid balance with them. Here the way they explained it: Let's say you buy a big $10k KRL toolbox. Pay it off 100%. Then 5 years after paying off the box, you buy a $6900 Snap-on scan tool. You default on the scanner after one payment. According to this agreement, Snap on can not only reposses the scanner, but they can take your paid-for KRL toolbox as well. I could certainly envision where the used value of both items would barely equal the value you owe on the scanner. But you are really signing with the devil with these Snap-on contracts!
 
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Lookin4'67Galaxieconv

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After another call to Snap-on credit, I walked away from this purchase. This guy had a large unpaid balance with them. Here the way they explained it: Let's say you buy a big $10k KRL toolbox. Pay it off 100%. Then 5 years after paying off the box, you buy a $6900 Snap-on scan tool. You default on the scanner after one payment. According to this agreement, Snap on can not only reposses the scanner, but they can take your paid-for KRL toolbox as well. I could certainly envision where the used value of both items would barely equal the value you owe on the scanner. But you are really signing with the devil with these Snap-on contracts!

I have a hard time believing they could repossess a toolbox that was already paid for...but that's just my impression. Dave's explanation makes sense to me.
 

MrMark

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So here's an update that really surprised me. I did a NJ UCC1 search on the box I was going to buy Sunday, and a hit did come up for Snap-on. Snap-on credit did initially tell me that I was in the clear buying this box. But the language of the UCC bothered me. BTW, this was on the "extra pages" you could order for $1/page, not the actual UCC hit:

Collateral: Purchase money security interest in automotive tools and equipment, more specifically, listed on credit sales contract or equipment lease no. listed below. In addition to the purchase money security interest granted in the collateral listed on the referenced the collateral shall include all items of tools and equipment of debtor, whether now owned or hereafter acquired from a Snap-on dealer, and any and all goods and equipment manufactured or distributed from a Snap-on dealer, and any of its affiliates, or bearing the Snap-on or Sun Electric trademarks or logos, together with all proceeds (including insurance proceeds or claims), accessions, attachments, additions, substitutions, and replacements to and of such items (the foregoing and the collateral listed on the referenced credit sales contract or equipment lease are collectively referred to as "collateral"). Credit sales contract No. XXXXXXX***

After another call to Snap-on credit, I walked away from this purchase. This guy had a large unpaid balance with them. Here the way they explained it: Let's say you buy a big $10k KRL toolbox. Pay it off 100%. Then 5 years after paying off the box, you buy a $6900 Snap-on scan tool. You default on the scanner after one payment. According to this agreement, Snap on can not only reposses the scanner, but they can take your paid-for KRL toolbox as well. I could certainly envision where the used value of both items would barely equal the value you owe on the scanner. But you are really signing with the devil with these Snap-on contracts!


What a mess! You are right about signing with the devil.

Here's my take. Snap-on credit doesn't know what they are talking about.

The guy basically gave SO a security interest in everything he owned or might ever own with his purchase of that box. LOL. That is the contract he signed for the box. He gave a purchase money security interest in the item he purchased - the box - and a general interest in everything else. I would never sign anything like that. BTW, the purchase money security is very much favored under the law and has highest priority among liens.

Once he paid that box off that contract and security interest should be released.

NOW if he comes along and buys a MODIS on another contract like this he has basically given security on the box ONCE AGAIN.

This is why relying on SO to tell you if a box is paid off is not the best way to go.

Good job Skyline!
 

Skyline

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What a mess! You are right about signing with the devil.

Here's my take. Snap-on credit doesn't know what they are talking about.

The guy basically gave SO a security interest in everything he owned or might ever own with his purchase of that box. LOL. That is the contract he signed for the box. He gave a purchase money security interest in the item he purchased - the box - and a general interest in everything else. I would never sign anything like that. BTW, the purchase money security is very much favored under the law and has highest priority among liens.

Once he paid that box off that contract and security interest should be released.

NOW if he comes along and buys a MODIS on another contract like this he has basically given security on the box ONCE AGAIN.

This is why relying on SO to tell you if a box is paid off is not the best way to go.

Good job Skyline!
Thanks...and thanks for your education on this. You are really helping to protect the GJ faithful here. Please pat youself on the back! I would not have known how to do a UCC search were it not for this thread. And it took no more than 5 minutes to order the search online, (but it did take 6 days to get the results...I did not choose to give my Fedex # to speed it up a few days).

Clearly you need the UCC and supporting papers to know whats going on. It was apparantly some purchase subsequent to the toolbox purchase that created the UCC, as that was 2004, and the box was at least 15 years old. What SO credit told me was pretty much correct from what you are saying when I spoke to them the second time. They definately told me I was not safe to buy this.

What is scary here....even if the guy pays 100% cash for a toolbox, and presents you with a receipt, there could still be a lein on it due to a later purchase he made from Snap-on.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As an update to the situation, this guy claims he is getting this worked out with SO credit, and that in reality he owes them nothing. He says SO has it wrong and he needs to dig out his records to send in Monday. Why do I have such a hard time believing that? Perhaps it's the fact that he told me he had a firm offer of $X, and two hours later accepted my offer for $X-$2,000. Maybe it's that he continues to list this collection on eBay even after we have agreed on a price, (for a higher dollar amount.)
 
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Flash21

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...What is scary here....even if the guy pays 100% cash for a toolbox, and presents you with a receipt, there could still be a lein on it due to a later purchase he made from Snap-on.



^^^^^^^WOW :headscrat I would have never even thought to consider anything like that could happen.

Thanks for posting your experience Skyline!!
 

Happyshooter

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I am not your lawyer, this is not legal advice..blah blah

If you think in your mind that the guy may be a liar, but the deal is really good, enough to take the risk...

Get a UCC-3. Do not accept a UCC-3 from his hand. Only accept one from Snap-On filed by them, or emailed or faxed to you from an address/number you can confirm is Snap-On's with written permission to you to file it.

UCC-3's do not have to be signed, so sometimes dishonest debtors will file one themselves to get the cash now, risking a **** storm next month. If one gets falsely filed, it will get turned into a big mess. Now that you think there may be an issue, get a release from Snap-On or walk.

Snap-On's release can be just for the box and the tools in it, or for everything. Either way should be good as long as it releases the stuff you want to buy and you can tell what the stuff is by the UCC-3 description.

Thanks...and thanks for your education on this. You are really helping to protect the GJ faithful here. Please pat youself on the back! I would not have known how to do a UCC search were it not for this thread. And it took no more than 5 minutes to order the search online, (but it did take 6 days to get the results...I did not choose to give my Fedex # to speed it up a few days).

Clearly you need the UCC and supporting papers to know whats going on. It was apparantly some purchase subsequent to the toolbox purchase that created the UCC, as that was 2004, and the box was at least 15 years old. What SO credit told me was pretty much correct from what you are saying when I spoke to them the second time. They definately told me I was not safe to buy this.

What is scary here....even if the guy pays 100% cash for a toolbox, and presents you with a receipt, there could still be a lein on it due to a later purchase he made from Snap-on.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As an update to the situation, this guy claims he is getting this worked out with SO credit, and that in reality he owes them nothing. He says SO has it wrong and he needs to dig out his records to send in Monday. Why do I have such a hard time believing that? Perhaps it's the fact that he told me he had a firm offer of $X, and two hours later accepted my offer for $X-$2,000. Maybe it's that he continues to list this collection on eBay even after we have agreed on a price, (for a higher dollar amount.)
 

southernfriedcj

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So, the seller tells Matco I have the box. Matco shows up at my house demanding "their" box. I tell Matco to pound sand.
Game over. There is no title and no public record (deed).
How would Matco get the box from me? A civil lawsuit that would cost more in attorney fees than the box?

try it and see how it works :spit:

you'll be charged with recieving stolen property. that's a criminal charge and it will be taken to criminal court not civil court.


you should really do a search on this, we have had this debate many times......

So you are saying the third party is not receiving stolen goods and would have to have a civil suit filed against him if the Company (Matco, ect) wanted their collateral back?

In a word, yes.

Cool. I love being right!:bounce:

Just clearing out some old subscribed threads and reread this 3 year old Zombie. :deadhorse
 

ybnormal70

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There is always the "peel the sticker off" option. That's the difference. It is illegal to remove/change a vehicle VIN# but I doubt it is illegal to peel a sticker off of a toolbox. I'm sure they get removed all the time for repaints or other reasons.

L8r,

Kevin
 

devilsnight

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That yellow box was custom ordered to get those 9 big drawers ... I wonder what the reasoning was behind that? :headscrat

Sorry if im missunderstanding you but, all matco boxes are custom order. You can lay the drawers out anyway you wan't, on the 6series especially. Thats why i'd rather buy a matco box than the others If I was going to spending that much money. Built for you! Rather than picking a box and a color and paying extra for different sized drawers. No picture anymore so I couldn't say for sure whats up with the layout.
 
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