Who uses US steel?

[kngelv]

Recycled steel is a big thing today. US Steel recently closed the blast furnaces on Zug Island in Detroit and were never owned by ArcelorMittal. Most steel companies are trying to get out of the blast furnace method and are going to mini mills where they melt down recycled steel so point of origin becomes impossible to trace. Cleveland Cliffs just bought out AK Steel and ArcelorMittal USA. and they also own mines so they are a one stop steel producer. AK have a blast furnace on the Ford Rouge site where the freighters still unload ore from the mines in Northern Michigan just like when it was Ford Steel.

James

 

[Ilikeike]

Now if we could only get chip manufacturing along with most of the tool manufacturing in the US, we wouldn't be held up every time a ship gets stuck in a canal.

 

[Xcursion88]

-

 

[Xcursion88]

Now if we could only get chip manufacturing along with most of the tool manufacturing in the US, we wouldn't be held up every time a ship gets stuck in a canal.

Or...

God forbid....

Sell vehicles that aren't equipped with more electronics than what was in Steve Jobs and Bill Gates brain combined.

 

[WNYflyer]

Recycled steel is a big thing today. US Steel recently closed the blast furnaces on Zug Island in Detroit and were never owned by ArcelorMittal. Most steel companies are trying to get out of the blast furnace method and are going to mini mills where they melt down recycled steel so point of origin becomes impossible to trace. Cleveland Cliffs just bought out AK Steel and ArcelorMittal USA. and they also own mines so they are a one stop steel producer. AK have a blast furnace on the Ford Rouge site where the freighters still unload ore from the mines in Northern Michigan just like when it was Ford Steel.

James

As far as I have seen, in the US facilities that utilize blast furnaces to smelt iron ore (well Taconite now) they end up also charging scrap steel into a Basic Oxygen Furnaces (BOF) along with the liquid iron where is all converted to steel in the BOF. In my albeit limited exposure to the BOF's I have never seen them not use scrap steel but who knows maybe some of the mixes that go into the BOF use no scrap and thus may be called "virgin US steel"............then again who knows where all the other potential additives come from. United States Steel just started up a large EAF at their Birmingham/Fairfield Alabama facility to replace in some ways their previously closed blast furnace.

 

[finn]

Recycled steel is a big thing today. US Steel recently closed the blast furnaces on Zug Island in Detroit and were never owned by ArcelorMittal. Most steel companies are trying to get out of the blast furnace method and are going to mini mills where they melt down recycled steel so point of origin becomes impossible to trace. Cleveland Cliffs just bought out AK Steel and ArcelorMittal USA. and they also own mines so they are a one stop steel producer. AK have a blast furnace on the Ford Rouge site where the freighters still unload ore from the mines in Northern Michigan just like when it was Ford Steel.

James

The press releases issued by Cleveland Cliffs since their recent AK Steel and ArcelotMittal acquisitions tout the fact that they are now one of the largest, if not the only major US based steel manufacturers that are vertically integrated, and primarily rely on domestically produced taconite pellets to charge their furnaces. Cliffs sees the vertical integration as a competitive advantage, at least short term, because of the volatile, and rapidly rising cost of scrap, which their competitors have no control of.

The bulk of domestic steel competitors operate mini mills that are largely charged with scrap.

Brazil, Germany, Australia, and China are among the other countries that produce iron ore feedstocks for their own mills, and in some cases, for export.

What’s better? Virgin steel sourced worldwide, or recycled domestic steel produced in a mini mill from scrap?

Is there really a difference, performance wise?

 

[67King]

Everyone else is opining, so I might as well, too!

COO matters to me. Sure I want to support America, but there's more to it than that. I'm a free trade guy.......when free trade is about minimizing everyone's opportunity cost. What it has become is an arbitrage of labor and regulatory environments. IOW, LCCS (Low Cost Country Sourcing) is not about finding the country than has the best tools to do the job most efficiently, it is about finding the country that has the labor and environmental laws that are notably less protective than ours.

Now, raw materials, IMHO, isn't nearly as much about arbitrage of labor, as it is about who has what resources. Certainly recycled materials is a factor, but if the ore is in another country, and there is an abundance of it, then that's the best place for it. For all of us. How much more easily extractable ore is in Wisconsin? I don't know. How much of steel comes from recycled sources? I don't know. But I'm not turned off by the "of global products" types of messaging in all cases.

At the end of the day, where value is added to a product is what is probably most critical. How much is a chunk of steel worth, 5 cents? Okay. Now how about a worked piece, 15 cents? Now how about a forging? Maybe now we are up to a dollar. A machined forging? Maybe $3-4. Now the chrome plated, finished tool? $7-8? Packed for retail sale and distributed? $9-10? So in that case, I don't care if we buy worked steel from Mesopotamia. Even a forging. Even we do the finish machining, plating, and packaging all here, that's a lot more value added in the process. I'm not going to sweat 10% of the cost if the other 90% comes from the US.

 

[RickyPetite]

Let's hope that the US continues to maintain at least some level of ore production. Just look at China's stranglehold of rare earth metals. They have cornered the market and use it to their advantage. I have read article after article on how the Mountain Pass Mine was going to be up and running next year...wait, next year...you get the idea. Without rare earth metals, you can't make bombs or Tesla's.

 

[neophyte]

From the root for the home team point of view I understand the question. From the scientific point of view anybody that has the technology to build a steel mill anywhere in the world knows how to make whatever grade of steel you're willing to pay for. It's not the secret formula for Cola-Cola. TOPTUL for example gets their steel from Kobe Steel in Japan. When I worked in the semiconductor industry we bought our 316L stainless steel piping for our UHP gases from Kobe Steel as they had the best electropolishing technology and surface finish. There is likely at least 1,000 miles of this tubing in Intel's factories in Chandler, AZ.

This is overly simplistic.
Steel ores vary, and the effort and procedures needed to refine and alloy the steel will vary with the ore and will also affect the cost of the steel produced.
A company may have the facilities to produce one alloy, and refine one type of ore, but not to refine other types or produce other alloys at least to the same quality levels.
this can result in steel with unwanted impurities, or made using less optimal methods, which may work fine, but not up to the high standards if made in an optimal facility.

 

[Xcursion88]

Everyone else is opining, so I might as well, too!

COO matters to me. Sure I want to support America, but there's more to it than that. I'm a free trade guy.......when free trade is about minimizing everyone's opportunity cost. What it has become is an arbitrage of labor and regulatory environments. IOW, LCCS (Low Cost Country Sourcing) is not about finding the country than has the best tools to do the job most efficiently, it is about finding the country that has the labor and environmental laws that are notably less protective than ours.

Now, raw materials, IMHO, isn't nearly as much about arbitrage of labor, as it is about who has what resources. Certainly recycled materials is a factor, but if the ore is in another country, and there is an abundance of it, then that's the best place for it. For all of us. How much more easily extractable ore is in Wisconsin? I don't know. How much of steel comes from recycled sources? I don't know. But I'm not turned off by the "of global products" types of messaging in all cases.

At the end of the day, where value is added to a product is what is probably most critical. How much is a chunk of steel worth, 5 cents? Okay. Now how about a worked piece, 15 cents? Now how about a forging? Maybe now we are up to a dollar. A machined forging? Maybe $3-4. Now the chrome plated, finished tool? $7-8? Packed for retail sale and distributed? $9-10? So in that case, I don't care if we buy worked steel from Mesopotamia. Even a forging. Even we do the finish machining, plating, and packaging all here, that's a lot more value added in the process. I'm not going to sweat 10% of the cost if the other 90% comes from the US.

Sure...and that's great in a yearbook sort of answer sort of way...

But how are you going to dissect that? You don't have any idea what percentages are what.

If you buy something that states made in USA with USA material...that is the ONLY sure thing.

Outside of that you can only speculate the percentages.

SK is a grear example.
They're (at least for now) made in the U.S. with U.S. material.

Not some tools but literally all their tools are 101 percent US made.

That is such a rarity in modern times!!!

 

[dnschmidt]

No, it isn't. If Kobe Steel can make what an entire industry as advanced as the semiconductor industry is, the finest 316L stainless steel tubing in the world used for the most critical applications in the world carrying some the purest and most dangerous gases in the world (Silane, Diborane, Phosphine) they sure as hell know how to make steel to make a combination wrench. America isn't #1 anymore FACE REALITY. TSMC in Taiwan makes the most advanced chips in the world. That's why they're sole source for Apple's I-phones, I-pads and notebook computers. It's not 1950 anymore.

 

[bob15]

Just to further muddy the waters I'll point out that US Steel was bought out several years ago by Arcelor-Mittal. An Indian company. Recently an American company (Cleveland Cliffs) bought out Arecelor-Mittal which returns it to US ownership. However, how many stockholders in Cleveland Cliffs live elseswhere and their profits are sent to them where they live?

It's way more complicated than it appears. And, as for most of the ore coming from Labrador? Bull puckey. I spent years hauling ship loads of ore, coal and limestone to America's steel mills and every pellet came from mines in the good old U.S. of A. I'm no expert and I can't quote percentages but I can assure you there is very little, if any, foreign iron ore used in US steel production.

Are you sure it was US Steel you are referring about? Arecelor owns International Steel Group which includes Bethlehem Steel. Last I knew US Steel was still a separate company.

 

[Xcursion88]

No, it isn't. If Kobe Steel can make what an entire industry as advanced as the semiconductor industry is, the finest 316L stainless steel tubing in the world used for the most critical applications in the world carrying some the purest and most dangerous gases in the world (Silane, Diborane, Phosphine) they sure as hell know how to make steel to make a combination wrench. America isn't #1 anymore FACE REALITY. TSMC in Taiwan makes the most advanced chips in the world. That's why they're sole source for Apple's I-phones, I-pads and notebook computers. It's not 1950 anymore.

#1 at what? Making chips? Well **** sheriff.....just put two in the back of the head and put it out if it's misery.

Moreover #1 with what metric?


You're right...it's not 1950 anymore....
It's 2021 and the world has never before been so full of retail junk with more trash imported every day.
People, like yourself, are just itching to spend dollars on Asian goods.

Oh well....

To each their own

 

[Flared Base]

No, it isn't. If Kobe Steel can make what an entire industry as advanced as the semiconductor industry is, the finest 316L stainless steel tubing in the world used for the most critical applications in the world carrying some the purest and most dangerous gases in the world (Silane, Diborane, Phosphine) they sure as hell know how to make steel to make a combination wrench. America isn't #1 anymore FACE REALITY. TSMC in Taiwan makes the most advanced chips in the world. That's why they're sole source for Apple's I-phones, I-pads and notebook computers. It's not 1950 anymore.

Was Kobe steel the best or did they just say it was? 5 decades of falsified certifications:https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...nearly-five-decades-ceo-to-quit-idUSKBN1GH2SM

 

[lardy1]

Are you sure it was US Steel you are referring about? Arecelor owns International Steel Group which includes Bethlehem Steel. Last I knew US Steel was still a separate company.

I looked closer and you are correct. I was mistaken. I started looking deeper into it and the ownership gets hazy with US Steel. I didn't go very deep though but I do apologize for the bad information.

 

[Badgerstate]

Id say the easy answer is: none. There is no noticable difference in quality from steel no matter where its from and most consumers want the best products they can for the cheapest possible price, so that means you probably arent going to get US steel.
IMO, of all the things that you could worry about in life, worrying about whether or not your tools were made in the US from US steel is one of the sillier ones.

 

[RickyPetite]

"IMO, of all the things that you could worry about in life, worrying about whether or not your tools were made in the US from US steel is one of the sillier ones."

I'm not "worried" about foreign steel, I simply want to support US companies, including the steel industry.

 

[zendriver]

That's the laugh of the day.

Sorry, I forgot to add the (well, not really sorry and didn't forget)

Ironically, S-K is the perfect example of my point. Reasonable good quality, American made, but priced accordingly.

Americans appreciate that, but not enough to actually buy the product.

 

[Kscardsfan]

Just to further muddy the waters I'll point out that US Steel was bought out several years ago by Arcelor-Mittal. An Indian company. Recently an American company (Cleveland Cliffs) bought out Arecelor-Mittal which returns it to US ownership. However, how many stockholders in Cleveland Cliffs live elseswhere and their profits are sent to them where they live?

It's way more complicated than it appears. And, as for most of the ore coming from Labrador? Bull puckey. I spent years hauling ship loads of ore, coal and limestone to America's steel mills and every pellet came from mines in the good old U.S. of A. I'm no expert and I can't quote percentages but I can assure you there is very little, if any, foreign iron ore used in US steel production.

Just to add more twists and turns, Arcelor was a Luxembourg based European steel conglomerate.

 

[Kscardsfan]

Sorry, I forgot to add the (well, not really sorry and didn't forget)

Ironically, S-K is the perfect example of my point. Reasonable good quality, American made, but priced accordingly.

Americans appreciate that, but not enough to actually buy the product.

That’s been my experience. A lot of people talk a good game about buy american until it’s time to pony up. It’s sad, but the truth.

 

[dnschmidt]

Was Kobe steel the best or did they just say it was? 5 decades of falsified certifications:https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...nearly-five-decades-ceo-to-quit-idUSKBN1GH2SM

SEMATECH did a study of all of the available suppliers of 316L tubing. At that time I was Motorola's contamination control representative from APRDL (Advanced Products Research and Development Labs) to SEMATECH. If my fading memory serves me right that included Nippon Steel, Kobe Steel, somebody in Korea, somebody in Germany along with Carpenter Technology here in the USA. All of the coils were bought by member companies so nobody could tell it was SEMATECH that these were going to for a through evaluation process as we all knew that if the suppliers knew their samples were being evaluated at SEMATECH that they would of course cheat as whomever won would be selected to supply piping to all SEMATECH member companies. That would be worth tens of millions of dollars. At the end of the day Kobe won with respect to quality of electropolishing and resistance to corrosion.

 

[KnurledNut]

Chinese steel production largely relies on imports of met coal from North America. What comes around goes around...

 

[corn chip]

It is frustrating how nuanced the "Made in USA" vs "Made in USA with global components" vs "Assembled in USA" labels are. My goal is to buy the best tool available, sourced as much from the USA as possible. I consider myself lucky that I am able to afford a more expensive tool if it's what I decide to buy. Considering the depth of knowledge available on GJ forums, it's illustrative that we still don't know the sourcing of Proto steel. Interesting to see if they respond to my email inquiry.

theres alot of shady tactics in marketing ,meant to trick the uninformed public. assembled in usa is something i avoid like the plague. youll see it at home depot on the aircompressor isle ( craftsman ,dewalt etc). they attach a shiny sticker with red, and blue colors and even stars. alot of people are none the wiser but i know exactly where those aircompressors are from.
'designed and engineered in usa' is another product i want nothing to do with. again they often use red, white blue sticker, with stars. often its just a cover for 'made in china'.
companies are going even a step further and putting 'america' or 'usa' in the company name. to confuse and mislead. two examples are gear america and rhino usa. both market chinese made shackles, tow straps etc.
do your research and dont get ripped off

 

[67King]

Sure...and that's great in a yearbook sort of answer sort of way...

But how are you going to dissect that? You don't have any idea what percentages are what.

If you buy something that states made in USA with USA material...that is the ONLY sure thing.

Outside of that you can only speculate the percentages.

SK is a grear example.
They're (at least for now) made in the U.S. with U.S. material.

Not some tools but literally all their tools are 101 percent US made.

That is such a rarity in modern times!!!

There are labeling laws. Even then, what is a "USA material?" How far down the value chain do you require one to go? Because I guarantee you there are plenty of things out there described as "made in the USA" that contain commodities (like steel) that are made from ore that was NOT mined in the US. That's really what I was trying to get it. Obviously, the more complex the item is, the more complex that chain is. For example, a "Made in USA" car has a "Made in USA" engine in it that has "Made in China" manifolds, water pumps, etc. And the "NA Parts content" label may say 95% NA sourced, because it may be able to claim that that engine is "Made in USA," when it may only contain parts that were 50% made in the US (but again, the engine as a whole has more commercial value than the sum of its parts). Here's another example. I used to be an importer and distributor of Millers Oils, a British company. Their bottles were labeled "Made in the UK," yet their base stocks and many of their additives were sourced from the US.

Basically, it isn't as simple as folks want it to be.

FWIW, I have more SK tools than all other brands combined. They have absolutely been my go to. I have Wright combo wrenches, Williams ratchet wrenches, Knipex pliers, and a few Snap-On ratchets. And just about all of my other tools are SK. Sockets and all drive tools, screwdrivers, specialty wrenches (e.g. brake line wrenches), etc. I actually offered in the ***** whine moan thread to take the new SK ratchets off of people's hands if they weren't happy.

 

[VolvoRyan]

As the smart folks say: "US Steel" isn't a thing. Steel is an alloy. You can make the same alloy in the US or China. China currently has one of the fastest growing infrastructures anywhere in the world. They're not doing that with Harbor Freight tools.

-Ryan

 

[Maui]

Guys,
I only know one, (possibly two), domestic hardline tool manufacturers that use VIRGIN steel.
What im getting at is US steel is largely recycled.
Its basically a soup mix of global steel.
So even if its melted down here and ran through the cookie cutter, in the end its still chinesium.

Steel companies throughout the world typically use approximately 75% - 85% recycled material in their melts on a routine basis. This is an environmentally favorable practice, but that isn’t why they do it. It’s far less expensive than using virgin ore. Steel mills have been doing this for the better part of a century or more. As was mentioned before, there are literally thousands of different grades of steel. You need the right grade (or grades) of steel for a given application. The quality level can vary dramatically between different mills and the materials sourced from different countries. If the component needs to be heat treated to harden it, how that heat treatment is performed is critical. The tool you make is only as good as the heat treatment it receives. So there are a LOT of different factors that come into play in making a steel based tool or product.

As far as country of origin, there are very high quailty tools that come out of China right now as well as utter garbage. It depends on what the customer who is ordering it requires and the capability of the manufacturer. And Chinese steel mills have improved their quality dramatically over the past two decades. They’ve learned how to produce steel to very high quality levels. This is disturbing for a number of different reasons. The Chinese can manufacture a given grade of tool steel and ship it to a distributor in the United States for example for less than it costs a steel mill in the United States to simply manufacture the same grade of steel here today. And the majority of the costs associated with the manufacture of steel domestically is labor and legacy costs (pensions). Chinese labor is far cheaper. That’s the main reason why their steel is less expensive. Years ago companies here had a major incentive to buy domestic steel because of the higher quality levels that were available. But the Chinese have narrowed that quality gap, and there is little reason for companies to continue to source steel domestically unless they can acquire it faster here. This is one of the reasons why so many steel mills have failed in the US over the last 20 years.

I will say that I personally have never seen a high quality piece of steel that was manufactured in India, ever. I will not purchase steel products made there for that reason. They produce quality levels that would probably make even the Chinese cringe.

 

[VolvoRyan]

FWIW, I have more SK tools than all other brands combined. They have absolutely been my go to. I have Wright combo wrenches, Williams ratchet wrenches, Knipex pliers, and a few Snap-On ratchets. And just about all of my other tools are SK. Sockets and all drive tools, screwdrivers, specialty wrenches (e.g. brake line wrenches), etc. I actually offered in the ***** whine moan thread to take the new SK ratchets off of people's hands if they weren't happy.

Tons of SK here. Probably $10K in the last couple years. Fingers crossed for their future.

-Ryan

 

[Xcursion88]

There are labeling laws. Even then, what is a "USA material?" How far down the value chain do you require one to go? Because I guarantee you there are plenty of things out there described as "made in the USA" that contain commodities (like steel) that are made from ore that was NOT mined in the US. That's really what I was trying to get it. Obviously, the more complex the item is, the more complex that chain is. For example, a "Made in USA" car has a "Made in USA" engine in it that has "Made in China" manifolds, water pumps, etc. And the "NA Parts content" label may say 95% NA sourced, because it may be able to claim that that engine is "Made in USA," when it may only contain parts that were 50% made in the US (but again, the engine as a whole has more commercial value than the sum of its parts). Here's another example. I used to be an importer and distributor of Millers Oils, a British company. Their bottles were labeled "Made in the UK," yet their base stocks and many of their additives were sourced from the US.

Basically, it isn't as simple as folks want it to be.

FWIW, I have more SK tools than all other brands combined. They have absolutely been my go to. I have Wright combo wrenches, Williams ratchet wrenches, Knipex pliers, and a few Snap-On ratchets. And just about all of my other tools are SK. Sockets and all drive tools, screwdrivers, specialty wrenches (e.g. brake line wrenches), etc. I actually offered in the ***** whine moan thread to take the new SK ratchets off of people's hands if they weren't happy.

It's very simple...the people are the ones making it comicated.
Let's talk about your examples.
"Made in _____" needs to be "made in_____" whatever country it's stating.

"Made in ___with global products" is exactly as it's stated.

Using your Miller oil example
(I'm not familiar with that brand so I'm trusting what you say)
Made in the United Kingdom sounds acceptable to me. I understand you said they get some base stock and or additives from the United States but those are natural resources they're using in a formulation to produce oil "made in the U.K."
The U.S. didn't make the natural resource either. It's just there. They just pulled it from xyz and shipped it to Miller. Miller then made their special potions to get to their product but nothing remained of the U.S. product. That resource from the U.S. was turned into the Miller oil.

IMO that should state "Made in U.K." because indeed it was in fact made there with nothing but a resource(s) used from another country to turn all collective materials into that oil. I'm perfectly fine with that.

That said let's use a tool as an example. A wrench to be more specific. If a country made steel...then shipped it's blank bar stock to company "x" in another country and they machine it, perhaps work harden it or heat treat it, then make the finishing touches on it machining to size and chroming and stamping the wrench...
To me that couldn't be simply stated "made in _____" because the material was made into a steel blank before being exported to the manufacturer of another country for its final work.

If a country exported it's raw resource to manufacturer "x" in another country. ..that company must now turn that resource into the bar stock to then be used making said final product, a wrench, and all it's final mfg steps...
Then the "made in____" should simply be the country that actually made something and the exported country of said resources need not be included as they didn't "make" anything.

 

[67King]

It's very simple...the people are the ones making it comicated.
Let's talk about your examples.
"Made in _____" needs to be "made in_____" whatever country it's stating.

"Made in ___with global products" is exactly as it's stated.

Using your Miller oil example
(I'm not familiar with that brand so I'm trusting what you say)
Made in the United Kingdom sounds acceptable to me. I understand you said they get some base stock and or additives from the United States but those are natural resources they're using in a formulation to produce oil "made in the U.K."
The U.S. didn't make the natural resource either. It's just there. They just pulled it from xyz and shipped it to Miller. Miller then made their special potions to get to their product but nothing remained of the U.S. product. That resource from the U.S. was turned into the Miller oil.

No, it isn't very simple. At all. In my example, motor oil is blended from parts to make motor oil. That's pretty much it. If they import the base stocks, which are not just pulled from the ground......they are refined from crude for Groups I, II, and III, made in a factory via chemical reactions from chemical precursors (often petrol based) for Group IV, and refined largely from vegetable oil for Group V.

Then the additives, too, are made from chemical precursors, and turned into additives in controlled chemical reaction processes in a factory.

Then those components are shipped to the UK, where they are blended. They may pull in some parts from other parts of the world (and they certainly do for some of their products.....in some cases, those components comprise well under 1%, but yet that is a HUGE difference). But most of the "effort" occurs in other parts of the world. They basically just mix it all up at the UK.

But okay, what if the crude for the Groups I, II, and III comes from the US? And the chemical precursors from the other stuff comes from Canada, France, Brazil, and Uzbekistan?

A product may have 10 tiers of suppliers. When I was at Ford, we dealt with Tier 1 suppliers. Maybe we get a PCM from Visteon. Visteon sourced chips and stuff from what we'd call Tier 2's (but they were Tier 1 to Visteon). And so on down the line.

That's why, in my mind, where value is added to the product is the most important step for assigning country of origin.

But hey, regardless, we do both agree on SK!

 

[alex71]

As the smart folks say: "US Steel" isn't a thing. Steel is an alloy. You can make the same alloy in the US or China. China currently has one of the fastest growing infrastructures anywhere in the world. They're not doing that with Harbor Freight tools.

-Ryan

"US Steel" isn't a thing. US Melt is the correct terminology, if you want traceability to the raw material manufacturer.

 

[pfaustus]

There are Federal Regulations defining "Made in USA" and the like. You can find an overview here: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/complying-made-usa-standard You could probably find the actual rules in the CFR, but you'd have to be crazy to want to dive into that mess.

 

[Xcursion88]

No, it isn't very simple. At all. In my example, motor oil is blended from parts to make motor oil. That's pretty much it. If they import the base stocks, which are not just pulled from the ground......they are refined from crude for Groups I, II, and III, made in a factory via chemical reactions from chemical precursors (often petrol based) for Group IV, and refined largely from vegetable oil for Group V.

Then the additives, too, are made from chemical precursors, and turned into additives in controlled chemical reaction processes in a factory.

Then those components are shipped to the UK, where they are blended. They may pull in some parts from other parts of the world (and they certainly do for some of their products.....in some cases, those components comprise well under 1%, but yet that is a HUGE difference). But most of the "effort" occurs in other parts of the world. They basically just mix it all up at the UK.

But okay, what if the crude for the Groups I, II, and III comes from the US? And the chemical precursors from the other stuff comes from Canada, France, Brazil, and Uzbekistan?

A product may have 10 tiers of suppliers. When I was at Ford, we dealt with Tier 1 suppliers. Maybe we get a PCM from Visteon. Visteon sourced chips and stuff from what we'd call Tier 2's (but they were Tier 1 to Visteon). And so on down the line.

That's why, in my mind, where value is added to the product is the most important step for assigning country of origin.

But hey, regardless, we do both agree on SK!

We aren't talking about pcm's or locker pumps that have components from a different COO to damned if I know.

A vehicle has hundreds to thousands of component's.
Ford isn't claiming to be 101 percent USA...so where is the foul?

The Miller oil you used as example...again...taking products to formulate something else entirely.
Nothing else remains from the imported product as it's now combined in the U.K. to make one final product.
Let's say there are 5 things to their specific oil (as example) 3 of which imported and 2 homegrown.

When the final product is bottled, jugged etc..you have 5 things that are no longer 5 things. They've been mixed into a potion...changed if you will...to combine as 1 thing.

A PCM...open it up...chips, wires, plugs, etc...that are all still chips, wires, plugs etc.

That oil you speak of is no longer 5 different components. It's one component.
Open the bottle..it's one component.

The wrench...
If using imported steel it's a hunk of steel. The resources were made to become one hunk of steel of bar stock that then gets fine tuned to become a wrench. Fact remains it's still a hunk of steel that was imported. Nobody used the imported steel with 7 other components to make new steel...then make the wrench. That's different. But no...they take the already made steel blank imported, then machine it to spec. Add chrome, stamp some letters and numbers, sell it.

These two examples are perfect of
"Made in _____ " (the oil)

Or "Made in ____ with global and domestic materials " (the wrench)

And yes...

SK is a beautiful thing.
101 percent made!!!

 

[Milton Shaw]

I remember the cast table bases made in Mexico that were so radioactive you took a dose just sitting at the table. So they are not particular what scrap is used in the mfg of steel/cast iron.
30 years or so ago I remember a survey of 10,000 products to find any that were totally USA made. There were two, one was a jar of peanut butter, peanuts, glass and steel lid were all sourced here. Paper and ink and rubber seal were made here too. I don't remember what the other one was but I would think now you could not find anything that was totally USA made, and even then it is probably made with import machine tools.
Here in Knoxville we had a bridge beam break on I-40 probably 10 years of so ago, and they said it was Japan made steel, I wonder if the I-40 Memphis bridge was built out of the same steel. Both the bridges were built about the same time in the mid 50's.
In WWII we destroyed all heavy industry in Japan and Germany. Out industries were not destroyed. After the war the US government rebuilt steel plants in Japan and so they are modern compared to ours that are WWI vintage or earlier. That and pollution standards are why the steel industry is just about shut down in this country.

 

[Kscardsfan]

Steel companies throughout the world typically use approximately 75% - 85% recycled material in their melts on a routine basis. This is an environmentally favorable practice, but that isn’t why they do it. It’s far less expensive than using virgin ore. Steel mills have been doing this for the better part of a century or more. As was mentioned before, there are literally thousands of different grades of steel. You need the right grade (or grades) of steel for a given application. The quality level can vary dramatically between different mills and the materials sourced from different countries. If the component needs to be heat treated to harden it, how that heat treatment is performed is critical. The tool you make is only as good as the heat treatment it receives. So there are a LOT of different factors that come into play in making a steel based tool or product.

As far as country of origin, there are very high quailty tools that come out of China right now as well as utter garbage. It depends on what the customer who is ordering it requires and the capability of the manufacturer. And Chinese steel mills have improved their quality dramatically over the past two decades. They’ve learned how to produce steel to very high quality levels. This is disturbing for a number of different reasons. The Chinese can manufacture a given grade of tool steel and ship it to a distributor in the United States for example for less than it costs a steel mill in the United States to simply manufacture the same grade of steel here today. And the majority of the costs associated with the manufacture of steel domestically is labor and legacy costs (pensions). Chinese labor is far cheaper. That’s the main reason why their steel is less expensive. Years ago companies here had a major incentive to buy domestic steel because of the higher quality levels that were available. But the Chinese have narrowed that quality gap, and there is little reason for companies to continue to source steel domestically unless they can acquire it faster here. This is one of the reasons why so many steel mills have failed in the US over the last 20 years.

I will say that I personally have never seen a high quality piece of steel that was manufactured in India, ever. I will not purchase steel products made there for that reason. They produce quality levels that would probably make even the Chinese cringe.

Don’t forget Russian steel. I think velveeta cheese has a higher melting point than that ****.

 

[Xcursion88]

After the war the US government rebuilt steel plants in Japan and so they are modern compared to ours that are WWI vintage or earlier. That and pollution standards are why the steel industry is just about shut down in this country.

Ok...but please oh please do not forget the problem of unjustified pay raises yearly solely based on "just because"

No faster production...no more performance efficiency at said job...yet.. "gimme a raise!!!!"...why? "Just because" man.
After decades of obliging the entitled demand...it's just not possible to compete with pricing.

 

[67King]

A vehicle has hundreds to thousands of component's.


The Miller oil you used as example...again...taking products to formulate something else entirely.

They've been mixed into a potion to combine as 1 thing.

A PCM...open it up...chips, wires, plugs, etc...that are all still chips, wires, plugs etc.

If using imported steel it's a hunk of steel. The resources were made to become one hunk of steel of bar stock that then gets fine tuned to become a wrench. Fact remains it's still a hunk of steel that was imported. Nobody used the imported steel with 7 other components to make new steel...then make the wrench.

Supply chains and manufacturing do not differentiate between whether a product "appears" to be a single thing, or a combination of things. The difference between a PCM and a bottle of oil is only in the eye's ability to resolve components of a different size. The blended components like italian dressing, except that it'll take longer for the parts to separate over time.

Production processes have "value added" steps, most prominently defined by Toyota. A "value added" step is one that brings the stuff closer to the consumer good. For example, moving the forging from the die to the broach is not a value added step. Broaching the forging IS, because it takes it closer. Moving base stocks from the port to the assembly line where they will be mixed is not. Pouring them in the same mixing vat and mixing them is a value added step. Whether removing unnecessary parts or adding components, every single profitable company in the world considers them the SAME THING. Accounting, supply chain, manufacturing....and the tax collecting and trade commissions of the governments involved.

Besides, what if said broach has a different COO? It is a wear item, will be replaced, and that cost is amortized over the production run, so even if something goes from ore to finished good all in the US, it will be touched at several points along the way by non-US made goods that incur a cost that the manufacturer accounts for in its operations. And the wear and tear on items may very well exceed the cost of the energy used by them.

US labeling laws are based on supply chain tierings, not on the ability of the human eyeball to resolve components of a certain size. Obviously no one can force a consumer to agree with how things are done. I've been on the inside of this, both as an engineer at Ford and as the previously mentioned owner of the importer. I've seen things internally, which is why I understand the complexity of this. It is very different than being a consumer on the outside looking in.

Also, steel is not a raw material, it is an alloy comprised of several elements.......Fe, C, Cr, Ni, etc..... It is just like the oil. They are "blended," but at the atomic level, the elements are still in elemental form. That your eye cannot resolve that does not mean it is not just like the PCM.

 

[corn chip]

Don’t forget Russian steel. I think velveeta cheese has a higher melting point than that ****.

i got some russian 6061 from a online metal store. first time ive encountered something like this.

 

[Flared Base]

i got some russian 6061 from a online metal store. first time ive encountered something like this.

KUMZ in Russia does make aluminum products that comply with aerospace specifications. That said, I've never seen plate/sheet from them in the wild.

 

[Xcursion88]

Supply chains and manufacturing do not differentiate between whether a product "appears" to be a single thing, or a combination of things. The difference between a PCM and a bottle of oil is only in the eye's ability to resolve components of a different size. The blended components like italian dressing, except that it'll take longer for the parts to separate over time.

Production processes have "value added" steps, most prominently defined by Toyota. A "value added" step is one that brings the stuff closer to the consumer good. For example, moving the forging from the die to the broach is not a value added step. Broaching the forging IS, because it takes it closer. Moving base stocks from the port to the assembly line where they will be mixed is not. Pouring them in the same mixing vat and mixing them is a value added step. Whether removing unnecessary parts or adding components, every single profitable company in the world considers them the SAME THING. Accounting, supply chain, manufacturing....and the tax collecting and trade commissions of the governments involved.

Besides, what if said broach has a different COO? It is a wear item, will be replaced, and that cost is amortized over the production run, so even if something goes from ore to finished good all in the US, it will be touched at several points along the way by non-US made goods that incur a cost that the manufacturer accounts for in its operations. And the wear and tear on items may very well exceed the cost of the energy used by them.

US labeling laws are based on supply chain tierings, not on the ability of the human eyeball to resolve components of a certain size. Obviously no one can force a consumer to agree with how things are done. I've been on the inside of this, both as an engineer at Ford and as the previously mentioned owner of the importer. I've seen things internally, which is why I understand the complexity of this. It is very different than being a consumer on the outside looking in.

Also, steel is not a raw material, it is an alloy comprised of several elements.......Fe, C, Cr, Ni, etc..... It is just like the oil. They are "blended," but at the atomic level, the elements are still in elemental form. That your eye cannot resolve that does not mean it is not just like the PCM.

We aren't talking about supply chains and distribution....
It was simply you bitching about a bottle of oil in the U.K.

It's a simple COO discussion that YOU brought up involving oil in the U.K. stating "made in the U.K." that you disagreed with because it was importing some things to make the finished product.

YOU compared it to a PCM on an automobile to which I simply told you is not a comparable whatsoever.
If Miller brought in Mobil1 and just placed it in their own bottle...that's certainly not "made in U.K."
Using component A,B,C,D and E making one final product (the oil) is certainly Made in U.K.
You no longer have A,B,C,D and E in the state in which it arrived.

Your PCM example you used and stated has components from abroad inside still has the same components should you open it up.

Nobody said steel was a raw material itself..??..so I'm not sure what your point is there.

I was pretty crystal in saying that if Brand X makes wrenches with imported steel....they can't be considered "made in ____ " as they're making that wrench out of a piece of imported bar stock. (Global materials)
If they import raw materials to make the steel then proceed to make the rest of the wrench that's different.

 

[Andres26tnt]

I want my tools to be made of USA molecules