Who's problem?

[tfalk]

Kinda irrelevant since I (homeowner) figured out and fixed the problem but wondering general opinion of the pro's as to who's problem this is/was?

Recently completed garage expansion. As part of it, all new subpanel and everything feeds into that. As part of it, I had the electrician add an outside disconnect and 30 amp 220 circuit to have a split a/c unit installed afterwards. Fast forward a few weeks, hvac friend shows up and installs daikin 24k mini split. And... line side has 240v, no power coming out of the load side of the disconnect. hvac guy talks to electrician, both conclude disconnect is bad, sparky says he will stop by following week to replace it. Never shows....

I pulled the entire thing off the wall, took it apart, no continuity across anything. Google search show me apparently there are supposed to be 2 fuses installed on the back side of the puller. Neither of them ever thought to ask about it when they talked 2 weeks ago...

Is this something the electrician should have added? The hvac guy? Heading to HD to pick up the fuses shortly, just wondering for my own sanity... very disappointed that NEITHER of them thought to check/look and it takes me, a ******* homeowner, to figure out what the problem is.

 

[tncatadjuster]

Sometimes errors align, humans make mistakes. You seem to have a soultion that allows you to go forward, all good.

 

[Walkers]

That is usually done when they do the finish wiring. Since nobody finished it, then I would say the hvac guy that did the finish work should have done it.

 

[cgrutt]

I'd just be happy it's an easy fix but a bit concerning that neither one thought to look for fuses if this is a common disconnect (I have no clue). Glad you got it resolved. This is a good example of why I strongly prefer doing my own work whenever possible.

 

[Innovate1]

Crazy that neither of them figured out the fuses were missing. I tend to think the HVAC guy is responsible. A lot of disconnects don't include fuses so wondering why the electrician put that in. Maybe it was just what was on the truck. Frustrating I know - you expect them to know more than a weekend warrior. But at least it was an easy fix.

"It works better when you plug it in."

 

[mm08822]

Sparky should have known he purchased/installed a fusable disconnect. (Not every ac disconnect is fused.)
Fuse size would only be established once the actual unit was known, so expecting Sparky to put fuses in is unrealistic if the job was scoped out as run a 30A ckt to location X and terminate with a disconnect.

Sparky should have known enough to be able tell Mr. HVAC that he needs to add fuses sized according to nameplate.

This is probably the simplest "problem" anyone could ask for.!! Smile........

 

[sparky 1971]

The electrician should have put fuses in. I have on more than one occasion grabbed a fused disconnect by accident at the box store only to find out I had the wrong thing after I got to the job. Every one of those was returned and replaced with a non fused version.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Kinda irrelevant since I (homeowner) figured out and fixed the problem but wondering general opinion of the pro's as to who's problem this is/was?

Recently completed garage expansion. As part of it, all new subpanel and everything feeds into that. As part of it, I had the electrician add an outside disconnect and 30 amp 220 circuit to have a split a/c unit installed afterwards. Fast forward a few weeks, hvac friend shows up and installs daikin 24k mini split. And... line side has 240v, no power coming out of the load side of the disconnect. hvac guy talks to electrician, both conclude disconnect is bad, sparky says he will stop by following week to replace it. Never shows....

I pulled the entire thing off the wall, took it apart, no continuity across anything. Google search show me apparently there are supposed to be 2 fuses installed on the back side of the puller. Neither of them ever thought to ask about it when they talked 2 weeks ago...

Is this something the electrician should have added? The hvac guy? Heading to HD to pick up the fuses shortly, just wondering for my own sanity... very disappointed that NEITHER of them thought to check/look and it takes me, a ******* homeowner, to figure out what the problem is.

no the electrician couldnt have added it because he would have no clue what size fuses are needed unless you spec'd the unit when he did the circuit install

that would 100% be on the HVAC co if the AC unit was spec'd later....

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The electrician should have put fuses in. I have on more than one occasion grabbed a fused disconnect by accident at the box store only to find out I had the wrong thing after I got to the job. Every one of those was returned and replaced with a non fused version.

if the unit was not spec'd when the electrician did the circuit install, how could he know what size fuses were needed?

 

[nadogail]

That is usually done when they do the finish wiring. Since nobody finished it, then I would say the hvac guy that did the finish work should have done it.

The HVAC guy should have tested his work. Had he done so he would have found that the equipment was not working and then put in the necessary fuses.

 

[eejack]

Personally I would blame the plumber. It is always their fault.

 

[Sumboodie]

Who is problem?

 

[sparky 1971]

if the unit was not spec'd when the electrician did the circuit install, how could he know what size fuses were needed?

The same way I size the breaker when the unit isn't there yet. By calling the mechanical contractor and asking. What if it was a non fused disconnect? How would he know what size breaker to use?

The HVAC contractor knows what they are going to install.

 

[tfalk]

no the electrician couldnt have added it because he would have no clue what size fuses are needed unless you spec'd the unit when he did the circuit install

Electrician WAS given specs for unit when wiring was installed, appropriate 220/30 breaker and disconnect were installed. They just never installed the fuses needed for the disconnect to actually work.

@nadogail HVAC guy is the one who found out the disconnect had no power to the load side when he installed the split. He spoke to the electrician who installed the disconnect and they jointly decided the disconnect was bad. Apparently neither thought to ask if either had installed the fuses needed.

Problem is resolved, I bought the fuses and installed them and the unit works fine. I was just trying to see what the consensus would be among trades people who should have installed the fuses rather than me having to find and resolve the problem.

 

[sparky 1971]

Electrician WAS given specs for unit when wiring was installed, appropriate 220/30 breaker and disconnect were installed. They just never installed the fuses needed for the disconnect to actually work.


Telling him to install a 30 amp 240 volt AC circuit is generic but common. I doubt the unit needs 30 amps. I've personally never seen a mini split that needed more than 20 amps. Everything for sizing the wires and fuses is on the nameplate. That is where the "he didn't know what size fuses to install" is coming from.

 

[RPH]

HVAC guy installed unit. Who spec’d the unit?
I do see this as part of the hvac install. Confirming I have power present at my incoming disconnect is a priority. If it ain’t there, now is the time to fix it. HVAC guy should have looked deeper into it. He was on-site.

 

[Bert_]

The same way I size the breaker when the unit isn't there yet. By calling the mechanical contractor and asking. What if it was a non fused disconnect? How would he know what size breaker to use?

The HVAC contractor knows what they are going to install.

You're lucky if you get an actual answer. Most of the time when I ask that they don't know the electrical specs, "It's a 2 ton".

 

[sparky 1971]

You're lucky if you get an actual answer. Most of the time when I ask that they don't know the electrical specs, "It's a 2 ton".

I've been given the two ton answer many a time, but It's worth a shot because I don't want to go back over something stupid like changing a breaker from a 230 to a 225.

 

[justsam]

I am not in either of these trades but I believe the "normal" install is a disconnect, not a fused disconnect, so if something was installed out of the expected norm I would at least expect a note in the box. I would be much more concerned about the lack of integrity of a person that says he will show up and replace a suspected failed unit yet is a total "no show".

 

[BrandonV]

The last time I installed a mini-split the only disconnect available at the hardware store came preinstalled with fuses too big for the nameplate max fuse/MOP.

Are you sure someone didn't pop them out to replace them at a later point with the correct size fuses but forgot?

 

[mm08822]

I've been given the two ton answer many a time, but It's worth a shot because I don't want to go back over something stupid like changing a breaker from a 230 to a 225.

In that case, the fused disconnect disconnect puts the burden of final fuse sizing on Mr. HVAC and the "oversized" cb in the panel can stay as is - no return trip needed. CB is then only protecting the conductors from short circuit.

Verifiying the proper circuit protection is all part of commissioning the ac unit. Even if Sparky installed fuses, it still comes back to the person commissioning the unit to verify correct sizing, changing out as required. The cost of a couple fuses isn't worth dealing with chasing this problem back to someone.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The same way I size the breaker when the unit isn't there yet. By calling the mechanical contractor and asking. What if it was a non fused disconnect? How would he know what size breaker to use?

The HVAC contractor knows what they are going to install.

And what if none of that is decided upon when you install the circuit? Which may have been the case for the OP…

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I am not in either of these trades but I believe the "normal" install is a disconnect, not a fused disconnect, so if something was installed out of the expected norm I would at least expect a note in the box. I would be much more concerned about the lack of integrity of a person that says he will show up and replace a suspected failed unit yet is a total "no show".

The problem with that is many mini splits actually require fuses

 

[Jim greengo]

Kinda irrelevant since I (homeowner) figured out and fixed the problem but wondering general opinion of the pro's as to who's problem this is/was?

Recently completed garage expansion. As part of it, all new subpanel and everything feeds into that. As part of it, I had the electrician add an outside disconnect and 30 amp 220 circuit to have a split a/c unit installed afterwards. Fast forward a few weeks, hvac friend shows up and installs daikin 24k mini split. And... line side has 240v, no power coming out of the load side of the disconnect. hvac guy talks to electrician, both conclude disconnect is bad, sparky says he will stop by following week to replace it. Never shows....

I pulled the entire thing off the wall, took it apart, no continuity across anything. Google search show me apparently there are supposed to be 2 fuses installed on the back side of the puller. Neither of them ever thought to ask about it when they talked 2 weeks ago...

Is this something the electrician should have added? The hvac guy? Heading to HD to pick up the fuses shortly, just wondering for my own sanity... very disappointed that NEITHER of them thought to check/look and it takes me, a ******* homeowner, to figure out what the problem is.

They probably thought it was non fused.

 

[Jim greengo]

Personally I would blame the plumber. It is always their fault.

Well since plumbers were the original hvac guys,I'll give ya that 1! Hahaha

 

[sparky 1971]

And what if none of that is decided upon when you install the circuit? Which may have been the case for the OP…

Nobody knows the sizes when I install the circuit, so it will get #10 and a non fused disconnect unless it's for a particularly small space, then it might get #12. It's the trim out stage when I call up the contractor and tell them I need to know. The unit size should be decided by then.
The proper fuse size is no different than the proper breaker size. The electrician here could have very easily made the call to find what he needed when he trimmed it out. If he used a non fused disconnect and ran a 30 amp circuit and the mini split MOCP is 15, is the HVAC tech going to be responsible for changing that out? I doubt he'd even look. Probably just turn the disconnect on and be out of there as soon as the unit started throwing cold air out. If it's permitted, which trade will fail the inspection? (if that even gets looked at). I've had electrical inspectors check to make sure I had the right breaker size, I've also been hired by mechanical contractors to change a breaker because they failed their inspection on a unit change out.

The only time I know the breaker size are the very few times I'm installing the circuit for an old house that never had AC to begin with. That's easy since the unit is sitting on site. In those cases, I won't go unless the condensing unit is there.

 

[Mr onetwo]

Personally I would blame the plumber. It is always their fault.

I take umbrage with that statement good sir!

 

[Mr onetwo]

little feller showin' no crack

 

[Mr onetwo]

Personally I would blame the plumber. It is always their fault.

It's the always fu#*in' sheet rockers

 

[justsam]

I realize this is the other end of the HVAC system and find it interesting that in my California home built in 2006, there is still a screw in fuse in use on the furnace/air handler. It is 15 Amp.
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