Why are my garage addition estimates so high?

[wssix99]

AFA framing consider hiring 3 carpenters for 3 weeks at 200/day each cash. I don't know if that's exactly possible in your community, but add up the numbers. That's under 10 grand in labor.

The OP will pay at least double that. Labor (if you can get it to show up) is scarce in this part of the country and prices are going sky high again. (Just like the boom.) So many contractors and laborers have gone out to North Dakota for the oil/building boom that the market is nuts.

I'm building a house in Chicago and have gone through over 20 carpenters in the past 6 months. The labor issue alone, has delayed my project 2 months. They keep dumping my big project/steady work for chasing after other projects where they can make faster/more money.

I'd expect any "reasonable" bid right now will lead to endless delays or shotty workmanship.

 

[jmiller_2308]

Just a quick note in response to the comments about me being a "difficult" customer and being focused on what I want to pay.

I think I am like most people in that I have a budget I need to work within; I can't just ask a builder to build me a garage and write him a blank check.

I have been up front with my budget and desires with every builder I have talked with. I don't build buildings everyday so I don't know what things cost but I would expect the guys that do this all the time should be able swag something fairly close.

Thus far, every builder I've talked with said no problem with the budget and than after both of us invest large amounts of time and effort they come back with stuff 2 to 3 times more than we talked about. It is these high estimates that were the reason I started this thread.

Rest assured that my focus is not about nickle and dimeing contractors or trying to screw them out of a living. I understand that when filling out more detail for an estimate that it could expose additional costs and I expected that. What I don't expect is to have estimates come back 200 to 300% higher than we originally talked about with no explanation as to why.

 

[rieferman]

I'm sorry if my post came across negatively - not my intent. Just trying to help based on my experience. If you could hear my voice along with the message you would see I'm trying to be helpful, tough to convey in type sometimes.

Swag numbers aren't worth a darn. When I was in the business, I never said "no" to a request for a price, and I never told a customer they were crazy with their budget. I would return to my desk, with their wishes and my numbers and calculations handy, and put together a real price based on what they asked for. I would usually also have some ideas in my back pocket that would help us get closer to their expressed budget (which was always far lower than what it actually costs and was usually not based on experience in the industry as much as "what their neighbor" paid etc.). When my numbers were very far different than their desired budget, I would still politely offer them service but would not usually provide endless details and education (aka "free consulting") because experience had taught that what I was selling and what they were looking to buy were not the same thing. So, the economics of the situation would force me to spend the bulk of my effort on a more likely sale. All this from the construction sales point of view and intended to give you a feel for what these guys may be thinking.
As a side note, during that stint, I met and worked with many GC's and many subs and found that their thought process followed similarly to mine.

What I was really trying to express is this... Pricing in an area is what it is to a certain extent. Reputable builders have similar pricing to customers based on similar labor costs, insurance costs, material costs, fuel costs etc. etc. While they may have said "sure thing" to your budget during a casual conversation (just as I would never shoot down a customer to make them feel silly etc.), when they return back to their calculators to run their formulas, the number is what the number is based on all those costs and really has nothing to do with your budget.

The reason people often say "get 5 quotes" is because you can expect to throw out the lowest and the highest, and have 3 that are similar to choose from. Sounds like you've gotten a bunch of quotes that are all in range so it doesn't seem like there's a conspiracy to price gouge or anything like that. Instead, my gut feeling is that your budget expectations and your construction goals are not in line with each other given the market that you are in. In which case, you can spend more, re-design to spend less, do much of the work yourself, or keep hunting for someone that will do it for less (and that outlier may be someone to be wary of if everyone else is similarly priced).

Again, all meant to be helpful to your cause.

 

[readhead]

Sounds like you are not shopping at the right store. I would never offer any kind of pricing before seeing plans and specs. Start asking around for referances and when you start hearing the same names over and over, those are the people you want to talk to.

 

[wssix99]

The most frustrating thing about this is that I’ve done a lot of homework and talked with a number of builders. I always start with full disclosure about what I want

My advice is: Don't expect that you are being heard and understood just because you are talking. Your garage is not typical or simple, but its human nature to assume (even though you are saying different details) that your garage is just like 95% of all the others out there. If it was, you'd have no problem at $30K.

They then go away for weeks to draw plans and collect bids and then come back with estimate 2 to 3 times where we started – WTF!!!

Your expectations are way off. I don't know where the $30K number came from, but you'll be lucky to purchase all the materials you need for that price. (Including the material that you are going to install, yourself.) Once you add in the heavy equipment, labor, and profit for the parties involved, you will end up far north of that figure. (If you are under 15% for GC fees on a custom-designed structure, you are in good shape. If a contractor tells you that they charge much less than that, they won't be in business long or they account for some of their expenses under other line items.)

I'd say that you could pull off a garage for $75/sq. ft. if it was basic. (A 20X20 "typical" garage would put you at $30K at that point.) Since your garage is extra large, extra tall, skewed, attached, complex roof geometry, etc. you are going to come in at least $100/sq. ft. - and maybe more. (Finished houses cost much more than that but one thing to keep in mind is that the exterior walls and roof of any structure are the most expensive part.)

Depending on the level of finish you have spec'd for the inside (finish of drywall, finish of floor, HVAC, electrical, etc.) the bids you have may be very good.

Another thing to realize is that your angles make things much more expensive. Based on my recent experience designing a triangular shaped house, (we had to completely scrap the design and pay the architect to do a completely new, more rectangular, design) I'd guess that you are paying a 10% premium off-the-bat for your angled walls. The price starts shooting up once you get away from a perfect square or rectangle. To illustrate this:
100 sq. ft. circle = 35.5 linear ft. of wall
100 sq. ft. square/rectangle = 40 linear ft. of wall
100 sq. ft. triangle = 60 linear ft. of wall

Your size, height, and architect aren't doing you any favors. If you changed to a rectangular garage, aligned to the house, with a simple hip roof, you could get the price way down - but it would still be higher than $30K. I'd guess that your architect's design (which is striking) is costing you an extra $10-20K on construction costs. (Your architect will tell you that you can't put a price on design, but your contractor certainly can!)

BTW - If your architect let you to believe that this was a $30K design and you've paid them in full, you may want to reach out to a lawyer!

 

[ez-duzit]

...about me being a "difficult" customer and being focused on what I want to pay.

I think I am like most people in that I have a budget I need to work within ...
every builder I've talked with said no problem with the budget and than after both of us invest large amounts of time and effort they come back with stuff 2 to 3 times more than we talked about...

What this seems to be about is that you have dreamed up this imaginary budget (without first hand knowledge of the costs) and then attached a long list of costly design options from which you will not budge. You point out your neighbor's simpler construction and wonder why yours will cost more.

Also it would be kind of you to limit the number of contractors whose efforts will ultimately be a complete waste of their time.

 

[kd3pc]

Just a quick note in response to the comments about me being a "difficult" customer and being focused on what I want to pay.

I think I am like most people in that I have a budget I need to work within; I can't just ask a builder to build me a garage and write him a blank check.

I have been up front with my budget and desires with every builder I have talked with. I don't build buildings everyday so I don't know what things cost but I would expect the guys that do this all the time should be able swag something fairly close.

we went through this with getting a timberframe home designed and built...told them up front what our budget was, and what we expected - a turnkey home.

6 months and $6K later we got drawings and a one page quote similar to what you are being given, for a "dried in, no interior finishes" home that was three times our budget and could not be signed off in the county we wanted to build in, in VA. They were a VA company and could not get engineering approved.

The builders need to do a better job of listening, and simply say no bid, or you expectations are not realistic. In my case a waste of $6K that I never got anything for.

 

[Red05GT]

I think ez-duzit hit the nail on the head with his assessment of you deciding your pocket
book budget should get the garage built and no matter how complicated the project is,
it just can't be possible that you can't find a contractor desperate enough to build it for
your predetermined number.

 

[SweetD]

It has been said that you need a great architect or a great builder, but hardly ever both. I don't know about that but I've built plenty of things that had to be built differently than what the architect had down because his way was impossible.

Man, right on. This is EXACTLY what we experienced with our addition. I am super-lucky in that one of my best friends is a carpenter and we ended up giving the job to him (we did get several bids just to be sure).

His experience and knowledge was KEY to our build going smoothly. He made several "on the fly" adjustments/modifications to the plans that made a HUGE difference in time spent and results.

As a matter of fact, to Zeke's suggestion earlier, our guy ended up stick-building the gambrel trusses rather than pre-ordering / prebuilt ones. The trusses were an odd angle, and the angle that the original plans called for would have ended up looking awkward based on the other envelope dimensions of the build. My guy knew this and suggested the stick build. And he knew how to do it - great stuff.

Good luck with your project, I'm sure you're excited to get it done, and done right!

Dave

 

[Playwme]

Rieferman's points are very valid in this situation. A builder isn't going to go all negative straight off the bat. He's going to try to work with you to figure out the job, whether that be reducing the design to fit your budget, or raising your budget to suit your required design.

Wanting to do stuff yourself is an immediate turnoff for a contractor. You stated you could do demolition, act as a labourer etc to save money. That doesn't work. They don't know your abilities, their insurance doesn't cover you, they can't yell at you if you **** something up, and worst of all you're basically cutting into their job and putting one of their guys out of work. If they have a good team who all work together all the time then you don't want to interrupt that. You go to work , make your money doing what you know how to do , and then pay the guy that does that job for a living.

Is the quote a fixed price, or is it just a list of allowances for certain parts? If fixed then you doing anything reduces nothing. If there's an allowance for waste removal then you can probably save the price on dumpsters by taking stuff to the tip yourself in a trailer. I saved $3000 on dumpster fees by using my truck to take demolition waste to a dump where I didn't have to pay. Your job might not have that much waste though as its mostly add on and hopefully they aren't overordering on materials.

 

[Daniel Dudley]

If you could twist the addition so that it was 135 deg. from the front wall of the building (45 deg. from side) and line the peak of the back hips up with the centerline of the original roof you intend to overframe, this would become a much better design.

It would however push the far corner away from the house a little more. But you get a perfect set of hips and valleys.

 

[Ross/Kzoo]

If you could twist the addition so that it was 135 deg. from the front wall of the building (45 deg. from side) and line the peak of the back hips up with the centerline of the original roof you intend to overframe, this would become a much better design.

It would however push the far corner away from the house a little more. But you get a perfect set of hips and valleys.

There are many things in his design requirements that command top dollar.

 

[Daniel Dudley]

There are many things in his design requirements that command top dollar.

No doubt. And you would have to change the shape of the rectangle to accommodate the garage door as well.

My initial response to the OP would have been to change the design or pay the money. I just didn't say it. If you want a cheaper garage, you have to build a cheaper garage. I do these kind of projects a lot. It's a lot cheaper to draw lines on paper than it is to save money making those lines a reality.

This is an ambitious project, but it is a nice design in that it solves a lot of problems. When doing a project like this, you have to look at your needs and also how the project will enhance the value of the property in relation to the cost outlay.

However, if you can't afford it, rethink your goals. I couldn't finish that for less than the estimates you have been given. I'd probably be more.

 

[ez-duzit]

The entire new roof section joining the original roof to the new garage roof appears to be completely unnecessary. And special order roofing? Stuff like this drives the cost beyond the ordinary.

 

[jd_1138]

I'm building a house in Chicago and have gone through over 20 carpenters in the past 6 months. The labor issue alone, has delayed my project 2 months. They keep dumping my big project/steady work for chasing after other projects where they can make faster/more money.

I'd expect any "reasonable" bid right now will lead to endless delays or shotty workmanship.

My friend has rental houses. He is almost done with rehabbing a house. He used the same guy he always does (who's licensed in HVAC, plumbing, electrical) and has used this dude for 4 other houses. Estimate for a new heater, water heater, shore up electric and install new outlets and fixtures, and shore up plumbing came to 15k. My friend paid half, and the guy has only done maybe 30% of the work but wants the other half before he will come back.

And he even told the contractor to take his time (work it into his schedule) so as to save my friend some money, and then the contractor said: "ok, if we can have 2 months to complete it, it will be 15k total." But the dude has taken 4 months and still is not done.

The Amish guys he hired were awesome. They came in and did a great job with the garage rehab. They tore off the top of the garage and installed new 2x4 verticals, new gable trusses, new roofing, shingles, siding, etc. in like 3 days for like 4k for labor/materials. It went from a crappy garage to an awesome 2 car garage for 4k.

 

[Orionrising]

look into scissor or other higher clearance trusses, they are generally cheap as hell compared to labor etc,

 

[The Boss]

look into scissor or other higher clearance trusses, they are generally cheap as hell compared to labor etc,

For a hip roof? How are you going to do that?

 

[Ross/Kzoo]

Why not I-beam rafters?

 

[RickP]

Jeff, would it be possible to build the garage as a detached structure with a connecting breezeway roof? That might get the quotes down into a range more acceptable to you. Then you could add walls and windows later.

 

[jmiller_2308]

Jeff, would it be possible to build the garage as a detached structure with a connecting breezeway roof? That might get the quotes down into a range more acceptable to you. Then you could add walls and windows later.

Setback and height restrictions make it difficult for me to do a detach.

Given all the comments about the complex roof I'm currently back at the drawing board trying to figure a way to simplify the roof while also meeting setback and height restrictions.

I'm also still looking at the numbers because the way I read the one detailed list of numbers I have it looks like even a detached 25x30 garage with 13' ceilings would still come in at over $60,000 or $80 sqft as a shell!!!! Hopefully I'll also get some detailed numbers from the one builder that I do think can do this at a cost more in tune with my budget.

Jeff

 

[RickP]

Setback and height restrictions make it difficult for me to do a detach.

I should have worded that better - I actually meant a detached "structure" that is attached to the house. That way, you get the zoning rules for "attached" but the price advantages of a "detached" building. Not sure if your zoning rules would allow that …

 

[bczygan]

One more critical piece of advice.

At this point, where you are analyzing things and going back to contractors for more information and even pencil sharpening, it is critical that you analyze the entire bid from a contractor, in all it's detail.

There is a hundred places to leave something out or shift something or make something an unreasonably low allowance.

Simply leaving out the spec for something, allows them to use the cheapest alternative.

I worked for an architect/builder that wouldn't spec anything in his bids. All doors were figured as the cheapest luan. Anything else was an upgrade, and more money.

Once you get to the contract documents, which include the drawings, specifications and agreement, that is what you are getting, nothing more. Examine them with a fine toothed comb.

Oh, you expected edge metal or ice and water shield on the roof???...sorry, it's not in the contract. But we can add it for.....

 

[Crazy68Dart]

I should have worded that better - I actually meant a detached "structure" that is attached to the house. That way, you get the zoning rules for "attached" but the price advantages of a "detached" building. Not sure if your zoning rules would allow that …

Right. Many places will allow you to "share the same roof line" and therefore it remains part of the main structure. So a breezeway is just a short hallway/passage only used to tie the roof of the main structure to the "detached" structure.

 

[K13]

Hopefully I'll also get some detailed numbers from the one builder that I do think can do this at a cost more in tune with my budget.

Jeff

Be careful I would be very reluctant to use someone whose bid comes in at half of what everyone else is quoting. That is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Just a quick note in response to the comments about me being a "difficult" customer and being focused on what I want to pay.

I think I am like most people in that I have a budget I need to work within; I can't just ask a builder to build me a garage and write him a blank check.

Indeed. Sounds like what I went through with my garage. I had a finite amount of what I could pay, and was dealing with contractors within that amount. The first was one I trusted, but he was unable to get the concrete within reason. I found the guy that was doing my brother's inside work and offhandedly asked him about an estimate without telling him what I could spend. His estimate was within my budget and he got the job. I found out also, that he was using the best cement guy in the area, so it appears that some contractors seem to want to price themselves out of the market. Labor and materials was a little over $18/SF. Did my own electric and insulation and still have paid less than $20/SF total. The right guys are out there.

 

[Higgins]

We found our contractor by stopping at other Car Guys and asking who built their toy barns. As it turned up, several were built by the same contractor!

We has setback and height issues for a detached building. Had we gone for the Breezeway option, I could have done anything as to the sq ft of the garage and the height. Should have asked for a variance, but didn't! Dumb......

AL

 

[Strouty]

My shop has 12'6" ceilings (unfinished), the way that was achieved was two 2x4's for the bottom plate 12' verticals and then two more 2x4's for the top plate. I know you are looking at 2x6 but it should be a savings. When I had my lift installed, I could pick a chevy 3500 up high enough to walk under it. I probably had 4" left above the cab at full lift. This has been an interesting post and a good read. Keep updating us.

 

[fury9]

This won't help with material costs but I'd change the wall insulation to r-21, the plan spec is r-19. It's gets cold where you live. You can also insulate it yourself, not too hard. I'd also bring the ice and water shield 2' past the interior wall framing. A safe rule of thumb for ice and water shield is "2 feet to the heat" also 15lb felt is pretty thin.