Why are titanium tools so expensive?

[katiexoxo]

Titanium is lighter than steel but it has the same strength, doesn't corrode and it's very friendly to humans. They make titanium screws for dental implants so the body doesn't reject them.

I googled for the price of titanium and it's like $5 per kg.

Then why do tools made from titanium have insane prices? 300$ of a small pry bar or 800$ for an adjustable wrench, fasteners are like $3 a piece for a M5x16 mm...

 

[kwoswalt99]

It does NOT have the same strength.

 

[Rosso]

Titanium and steel are vastly different.

As to why it's more expensive it's probably due to the increased difficulty in machining titanium compared to steel.

 

[NKlamerus]

I've always thought titanium was way stronger.

I wonder if the the airline (more specifically fighter jet) industries drive the prices up with demand. I would assume most new military aircraft are mostly titanium framed/lined?

 

[DocsMachine]

$5 per kilo sounds low, but that's still over ten times the cost of a kilo of steel (roughly 35 cents.)

Plus, it's more difficult to machine, and considerably more difficult to forge.

And the main reason is simply economy of scale. Steel bolts are made by the hundreds of millions per hour. Titanium bolts are made by the few thousand a year. Due to the cost and difficulty to machine, there's often no reason to have a titanium bolt when a steel, stainless or even aluminum bolt will suffice.

For an aircraft, sure. You can't just make the bolt bigger to make it stronger- it needs to be small, light and strong. So you go with titanium. For a truck or lawnmower, who cares how heavy it is? Need a little more strength? Use a bigger bolt.

And finally, generally speaking, unless you get into some of the more exotic titanium alloys, while Ti is tougher than steel, it's not necessarily harder. Titanium is actually fairly soft- roughly akin to mild steel.

It has a far greater tensile strength, sure, but for things that need to be relatively wear-resistant, like the jaws of a combination wrench, the blade of a knife, the fork of a prybar, etc. you're looking at about mild steel ratings. (Very roughly speaking.)

Doc.

 

[chruler]

It still cracks me up that our U2 and SR71 spy planes were made from titanium bought from Russia so we could fly over their country and spy on them.

 

[Duct Tape Man]

You can make a steel hammer with a handful of relatively common machine tools, in your basement. Machining and shaping titanium will take a shop full of equipment equivalent to the floorspace of a decent sized house, the machinery costing several million dollars.

You aren't paying for the titanium. You are paying for the tools and experience working with the material in order to make your tools.

Titanium is cool to have. But not that cool.

 

[Jlbc212]

It still cracks me up that our U2 and SR71 spy planes were made from titanium bought from Russia so we could fly over their country and spy on them.

That's so we can track the uranium mined here that gets shipped there and from there to Iran.

 

[Git]

And how do you feel about us now selling 20% of our Uranium Production back to them. I think they are having the last laugh

 

[neophyte]

I'm not sure about all the reasons why the titanium tools are that much more expendive than steel tools, but there are some differences in working titanium alloys that can cause tools to be more expensive.

When titanium is hot forged, the titanium or titanium firescale can actually catch on fire. From what I understand, some machining operations can also cause enough heat for titanium to catch on fire as well.

I believe that due to the same issues that can cause titanium to ignite when firging or machining, titanium slloys are usually cast using a vacuum investment casting method, which is much more expensive than casting methods like sand casting that can be used for many iron alloys.

Some of the stronger, harder, or more corrosion resistant titanium alloys actually contain other expensive metals like silver, platinum, or gold, which even in small quantities can make the better titanium alloys very expensive.

Hardening hardenable titanium alloys may need to be done using precipitation hardening, carried out over a longer time period than some other metal alloys. The extra time it takes can add a lot to final cost.

Titanium can be prone to galling in use. Tools and other items made from titanium may need additional surface coatings or finishes, like physical vapor deposition, coatings, or anodizing, that can add to the cost.

Titanium can work harden when it's being machined. This combined with the galling issue can make titanium much more difficult to machine. Cutters usually also need to be the more expensive coated type to help mitigate the galling issue. I've read that high pressure, using a coarse blades may work best, however this would require larger, heavier, more expensive machinery, and machinists experienced working titanium.

 

[kctyphoon]

It still cracks me up that our U2 and SR71 spy planes were made from titanium bought from Russia so we could fly over their country and spy on them.

And Russia now owns a huge uranium mining compnay, that a certain couple in politics helped to attain the rights to. So I guess we can call it even on now..

 

[kwoswalt99]

$5 per kilo sounds low, but that's still over ten times the cost of a kilo of steel (roughly 35 cents.)

Plus, it's more difficult to machine, and considerably more difficult to forge.

And the main reason is simply economy of scale. Steel bolts are made by the hundreds of millions per hour. Titanium bolts are made by the few thousand a year. Due to the cost and difficulty to machine, there's often no reason to have a titanium bolt when a steel, stainless or even aluminum bolt will suffice.

For an aircraft, sure. You can't just make the bolt bigger to make it stronger- it needs to be small, light and strong. So you go with titanium. For a truck or lawnmower, who cares how heavy it is? Need a little more strength? Use a bigger bolt.

And finally, generally speaking, unless you get into some of the more exotic titanium alloys, while Ti is tougher than steel, it's not necessarily harder. Titanium is actually fairly soft- roughly akin to mild steel.

It has a far greater tensile strength, sure, but for things that need to be relatively wear-resistant, like the jaws of a combination wrench, the blade of a knife, the fork of a prybar, etc. you're looking at about mild steel ratings. (Very roughly speaking.)

Doc.

It's tensile strength is not greater than that of steel, and it isn't 'tougher' either.

You can make a steel hammer with a handful of relatively common machine tools, in your basement. Machining and shaping titanium will take a shop full of equipment equivalent to the floorspace of a decent sized house, the machinery costing several million dollars.

You aren't paying for the titanium. You are paying for the tools and experience working with the material in order to make your tools.

Titanium is cool to have. But not that cool.

You can work titanium with most common tools.

 

[anndel]

That's so we can track the uranium mined here that gets shipped there and from there to Iran.

Actually it's the Ukraine, which is now at odds with Russia, who has the titanium production. I have a titanium bicycle which is an alloy of 6% Aluminum and 4% Vanadium (6AL/4V) to make it strong otherwise pure titanium is soft. It's way lighter than a steel bike but has similar ride qualities plus it doesn't rust.

 

[General Geoff]

The most sought-after properties of titanium are its light weight, corrosion resistance, and biological inertness. Sure, it can be made very strong by alloying it, but so can nickel. Ever heard of Inconel?

 

[Evilunclegrimace]

It also has a "high modulus of elasticity"

 

[KMdef9]

It's also more expensive because of availability.

And Ti is non-ferrous.

 

[Superbec]

wow... so many myths ...

It sure is not 5$/kilo , it's more comparable with aluminium than with steel , hard to machine, hard to weld

Didn't know it can burn in normal oxygen conditions ... maybe someone is confusing titanium with magnesium?

Tools made out of it should be specialty tools mostly so prices are whatever the producer thinks it's wright .

 

[kwoswalt99]

It also has a "high modulus of elasticity"

Not compared to steel.

 

[neophyte]

wow... so many myths ...

It sure is not 5$/kilo , it's more comparable with aluminium than with steel , hard to machine, hard to weld

Didn't know it can burn in normal oxygen conditions ... maybe someone is confusing titanium with magnesium?

Tools made out of it should be specialty tools mostly so prices are whatever the producer thinks it's wright .

Nope, titanium can burn. The firescale from hand forging titanium will sometimes catch on fire. I don't believe it's anywhere near as flammable as magnesium though.

 

[heart attack]

Ti is strong for its weight. It's easy to weld but if your not using enough shielding gas it becomes easily contaminated. And as far as machining goes...don't even attempt it with hss. Specially coated cutters are all I ever had luck with. My experience has come from the racing world.

 

[Tim37]

If I remember right titanium is about 75% the strength of steel but about the same weight as aluminum. In certain applications you can bulk it up and make a piece with the equivalent strength as steel and still much lighter. Or you can make a smaller piece that's the same strength as aluminum but lighter. But it tends to be very malleable. Imagine using wrench made out of a good quality aluminum.

I'm not a machinist but my dad was in the 80, he worked for a company that did a lot of aerospace/government contracts at the time titanium was still virtually impossible for civilians to get. Any way he told me that the stuff was like nothing he had ever machined and took some different techniques that they had to figure out (I'm sure this is common knowledge now days) any way he basically said it was a witch to work.

 

[Wakefield]

I remember that someone had a very expensive bicycle whose frame was made of some kind of titanium,it was undesirably whippy and flexible. If as strong as steel,then much less rigid. People used to say that aluminum was more rigid than steel for the same strength.

Duralum used in WW. II aircraft was said to be much stronger than other aluminum alloys-I wonder if it is still around today

 

[GTA Matt]

I have titanium wheel studs on my car. From my research, they have about 80% of the tensile strength as a comparable, high end, steel stud. However they cost about 400% more....

 

[Evilunclegrimace]

Not compared to steel.

Incorrect as I under stand its use. It is used in the firearm industry for its light weight and ability to absorb the pressure from a round being fired from a handgun.

 

[67King]

Ti-6-4, the most common alloy, is 3 times stronger than 304SS, and a bit over 10% stronger than maraging steel (the strongest steel). And it only weighs half as much.

 

[jeff000]

I remember that someone had a very expensive bicycle whose frame was made of some kind of titanium,it was undesirably whippy and flexible. If as strong as steel,then much less rigid. People used to say that aluminum was more rigid than steel for the same strength.

Duralum used in WW. II aircraft was said to be much stronger than other aluminum alloys-I wonder if it is still around today

Any bike can be as "soft" or "hard" as the designer wants it to be. Steel bikes in my experience are "more whippy" than titanium. Carbon Fiber is certainly the most rigid I have ridden, then titanium, then aluminium, then steel.
Titanium has a more natural "dampening" of sorts so is more comfortable to ride than carbon fiber while still being near as rigid to get the power to the ground.
I don't ride street bikes anymore, but I used a CF for race, and a Ti for everything else.
I ride a Ti full squish bike around town now, lol.

Ti-6-4, the most common alloy, is 3 times stronger than 304SS, and a bit over 10% stronger than maraging steel (the strongest steel). And it only weighs half as much.

This guy knows his stuff.

 

[kwoswalt99]

Ti-6-4, the most common alloy, is 3 times stronger than 304SS, and a bit over 10% stronger than maraging steel (the strongest steel). And it only weighs half as much.

??? When you're giving numbers, you also have to mention what you're referring to when you say 'strength'.

UTS: Ti-6-4 0.896 GPa, generic maraging steel 1.6-2.5 GPa

 

[Skin]

Duralum used in WW. II aircraft was said to be much stronger than other aluminum alloys-I wonder if it is still around today

Its an old name for aluminum copper alloy. None of the common aluminum alloys have close to the tensile strength of a decent tool steel. There really isn't a whole lot wrong with modern tools that they need to be improved by such a drastic change.

 

[William Payne]

The reason the U2 SR71 titanium was brought from the USSR was because they had and pretty much still have the monopoly on titanium production. They even have a 75000ton press for doing titanium closed die forgings. Alcoa, Boeing, Airbus all go over their for their titanium requirements.

 

[rsanter]

You can make a steel hammer with a handful of relatively common machine tools, in your basement. Machining and shaping titanium will take a shop full of equipment equivalent to the floorspace of a decent sized house, the machinery costing several million dollars.

You aren't paying for the titanium. You are paying for the tools and experience working with the material in order to make your tools.

Titanium is cool to have. But not that cool.

I have machines titanium at home. It is harder to machine and you have to have the speed and feeds right to get it done.
When drilling titanium you need to get the speed and feed right and then you do not stop drilling. Titanium will work harden as you are machining it so you have to keep ahead of that or you are in trouble

Bob

 

[rsanter]

$5 per kilo sounds low, but that's still over ten times the cost of a kilo of steel (roughly 35 cents.)

Plus, it's more difficult to machine, and considerably more difficult to forge.

And the main reason is simply economy of scale. Steel bolts are made by the hundreds of millions per hour. Titanium bolts are made by the few thousand a year. Due to the cost and difficulty to machine, there's often no reason to have a titanium bolt when a steel, stainless or even aluminum bolt will suffice.

For an aircraft, sure. You can't just make the bolt bigger to make it stronger- it needs to be small, light and strong. So you go with titanium. For a truck or lawnmower, who cares how heavy it is? Need a little more strength? Use a bigger bolt.

And finally, generally speaking, unless you get into some of the more exotic titanium alloys, while Ti is tougher than steel, it's not necessarily harder. Titanium is actually fairly soft- roughly akin to mild steel.

It has a far greater tensile strength, sure, but for things that need to be relatively wear-resistant, like the jaws of a combination wrench, the blade of a knife, the fork of a prybar, etc. you're looking at about mild steel ratings. (Very roughly speaking.)

Doc.

Titanium is relatively speaking cheaper than it has ever been because of advances in the cost reduction of refining it. Titanium bolts are more common than you think and are becoming even more common all the time.

Bob

 

[Superbec]

It's easy to weld but if your not using enough shielding gas it becomes easily contaminated.

wow !!! fiction and teachings in the second post , love it

it's so easy to weld every joe with a 115v squirt gun does it in his shed ...

 

[Canoe50]

Speaking of titanium, this was on last night's Super Car Build. (think it's National Geographic channel) Top speed of 203 mph & cost over $1,000,000. The best part is all the bolts used (I forgot the # mentioned) are titanium & the cost on those alone is $100,000. Pretty sure it's not in my future.

http://www.pagani.com/huayra/huayra_bc/default.aspx

 

[woody 73]

97% of my hand tools are used and found at garage sales, and maybe the last 3% are bought brand new and only on sale. The reason I say this is because you would get hit by a moving bus first before you would ever find a used titanium hammer at a garage sale.

Sure it happens but I have never seen any due to the very high cost to produce them. On the other hand I can find steel examples 24/7 in all kinds of condition from extreme rust to almost brand new.

They are very expensive because of the machining and production costs that go into the tools. If you ever get the chance to own one give it a try, the less weight alone makes up for swinging it all day long or better yet having to carry it up a ladder on your tool belt.

Below are a few examples that I got on sale, two are titanium and one is all steel, (the all steel is the same size as the other two just more weight).

 

[IndyGarage]

I used to be a manufacturing engineer in a factory that machined a lot of titanium. Contrary to popular belief, pure titanium is not hard to machine. It is relatively soft like aluminum, but somewhat "sticky" to machine, like taffy.

However as someone mentioned above, it does work harden, so you have to use relatively high feed rates to machine it.

I would suspect most who say it is hard to machine are using titanium alloys of various types.

Which brings us to the most important feature of titanium - which is its heat resistance - it is much more heat resistant than aluminum and somewhat more than steel. I'm not sure why that would make it desirable for hammers or pry bars, but it does make it desireable for SR-71 panels.

I personally think titanium tools exist to extract more $ out of the pockets of the purchasers of titanium tools - thus the price per pound is not related to the cost of the material - it's related to the pocketbook of the buyer.

 

[woody 73]

Indy I would venture too say that most of us on the GJ fall into that Wow factor and shell out more money for the cool tools...

 

[LXCam]

Speaking of titanium, this was on last night's Super Car Build. (think it's National Geographic channel) Top speed of 203 mph & cost over $1,000,000,000. The best part is all the bolts used (I forgot the # mentioned) are titanium & the cost on those alone is $100,000. Pretty sure it's not in my future.

http://www.pagani.com/huayra/huayra_bc/default.aspx

You might want to rethink your zeros. Ain't no one building a billion dollar car.

 

[ChaseDE]

The most sought-after properties of titanium are its light weight, corrosion resistance, and biological inertness. Sure, it can be made very strong by alloying it, but so can nickel. Ever heard of Inconel?

Right, in my industry we regard titanium the same we do inconel, hatstalloy, glass lined pipe, etc. Piping, fabrication, and all that takes more specialized shops and is much more costly.

 

[Canoe50]

You might want to rethink your zeros. Ain't no one building a billion dollar car.

Yup, had a brain fart.

 

[Canoe50]

I used to be a manufacturing engineer in a factory that machined a lot of titanium. Contrary to popular belief, pure titanium is not hard to machine. It is relatively soft like aluminum, but somewhat "sticky" to machine, like taffy.

However as someone mentioned above, it does work harden, so you have to use relatively high feed rates to machine it.

I would suspect most who say it is hard to machine are using titanium alloys of various types.

Which brings us to the most important feature of titanium - which is its heat resistance - it is much more heat resistant than aluminum and somewhat more than steel. I'm not sure why that would make it desirable for hammers or pry bars, but it does make it desireable for SR-71 panels.

I personally think titanium tools exist to extract more $ out of the pockets of the purchasers of titanium tools - thus the price per pound is not related to the cost of the material - it's related to the pocketbook of the buyer.

When the SR-71 was on the ground waiting to take off, it actually leaked fuel that puddled on the ground. There are no internal bladders to hold the fuel.
During flight, the panels would expand & seal, thus stopping the leaking.
It is a beautiful & fascinating plane.