HanShotFirst
Well-known member
12 points are good on 1/2” drives for when you need a breaker bar. Sometimes you just can’t get in there with a 6 point, and a 12 point gives you more options.
Why buy 12-point sockets?
- Thread starter Achilleus
- Start date
I don't think I ever saw a 6 point socket for sale in Europe in my 12 years over here. I'm sure the European companies do make them but they certainly aren't readily available or carried in stores. Of course you don't see many cars older then 5-10 years old driving around so maybe rusted bolts aren't as big an issue. I've had BMWs since 1999, several were over 15 years old, and seemed much less rusted then my Chevy's and Fords when I lived in the rust belt back home.
I cant speak for Germany but 6 point sockets are everywhere over here, as well as 12 point.
I use impacts for mostly everything and they're all 6 point. I have a large sockets set i bought when i first started out however and they're all chrome 12 point, i'll use them if i need to get a fit on a fastener in a tight space. I've never rounded a bolt with either type of sockets, all the bolts i've rounded have been on lines when using the open end of a spanner.
You are correct on the availability of 6 point chrome sockets, they are readily available when I checked online, Amazon.de, etc. I guess I wasn't paying attention and always thought most sockets were 12 points based on the few sockets I've purchased here (all larger 1/2" drive metric). Most of my sockets are SK and older USA Craftsman that I brought over. Thanks for setting me straight.
[/QUOTE]LostBoy(IRL)
Well-known member
Up to about 10 years back I didn't realise there was such a thing as 6 point!
I grew up on a farm in the west of Ireland, it's slightly damp here! Used to work keeping our old rusty, crappy machinery going. It was all 12 point, sockets and ' spanners'.
That was 20-30 years ago, an long gone from that life, but even now that I like adding tools to my shed I own very few 6 point, my 12s just work.
I grew up on a farm in the west of Ireland, it's slightly damp here! Used to work keeping our old rusty, crappy machinery going. It was all 12 point, sockets and ' spanners'.
That was 20-30 years ago, an long gone from that life, but even now that I like adding tools to my shed I own very few 6 point, my 12s just work.
jgromada
Well-known member
Why stop with 12 pts? I rarely use SAE sizes. The myriad cars I wrench on now are all metric.
When i updated my tools recently I only bought the range of metric sizes. I'm not getting rid of my 12 pt sockets & wrenches -or- my SAE tools but i did note in my sample size (of 35 years) that i rarely used them.
There are definite exceptions, I had to BUY a 30mm 12pt impact to remove an axle nut for a VW wheel hub but that is what the nut was 12 pt.
When i updated my tools recently I only bought the range of metric sizes. I'm not getting rid of my 12 pt sockets & wrenches -or- my SAE tools but i did note in my sample size (of 35 years) that i rarely used them.
There are definite exceptions, I had to BUY a 30mm 12pt impact to remove an axle nut for a VW wheel hub but that is what the nut was 12 pt.
German engineering. No surprises there.
God, I hate SAE.
Who likes fractions? Metrics is so much more intuitive. "Hey, grab me that 30mm!" as opposed to "Hey, grab me that 8/64!!!!" lol.
jgromada
Well-known member
Evidently a lot of people love SAE (or English) sizing. Otherwise we would have changed. (Abandoning American exceptionalism??) We would be so much better off if we were dealing with miles vs. Kilometers, or lbs. vs Kilograms. It has crept into use for containers like 2 Liter bottles of soda.
But doing a bunch home improvements it is ALL English. You get 4x8 sheet materials and frame with 2x4 (which are not 2x4 anyway). Makes you wonder what they sell up in Canada?
I've dealt with both metric and Imperial in the Army, and as a Civil Engineer in both Europe and the US. I have to admit the metric system makes more sense but my American stubbornness still prefers imperial (English). I'm fine with meters, adapted to the temp in Celsius, but still feel that motors should be measured in good ole Cubic Inches, especially V8s. I still convert gas from liters to gallons and Euros to dollars so I have some measure of what I am paying, and convert gas mileage from liters/100km to mpg. I still have my Chevy so I get to use my SAE tools occasionally although it is a frustrating mix of metric and SAE. Often on the same part.
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I'm just going to leave this here for anyone that thinks 12 points grip as well as 6 point on 6 point bolts.
How the fit looks on the pic is deceiving, it looks like the fastener fits into the 6 point opening almost perfectly but of course this isnt the case. When the spanner is turned the vast majority of the load is still applied just back from the corner of the fastener, shown below;
A good 12 point socket or spanner with a modern profile will also apply the majority of force onto these flats, commonly called flank drive or OGV;
Obviously this is from Facom but every other make will be similar, if the bolt starts to round then more material would need to be moved out of the way for the fastener to turn freely inside a 6 point socket than a 12, but its not much more and the bolt would have to be very soft or badly corroded to let that much of it deform.
OutsideMachinist
Well-known member
6 points have their place for sure. Mostly on smaller hardware. If its bad enough chances are you are going to have to cut/drill it out or put a torch on it anyways. Depends on what you work on and wisdom(experience screwing it up terribly). I use 12 point mostly. Stuff I work on has so much paint on it sometimes it is difficult to hammer a 12 point on the nut or bolt even after removing some of it.
For automotive stuff where there a lots of smaller fasteners that are blind holes I understand wanting to use 6 points to avoid drilling it out or having to weld something to it to remove it. If its REALLY bad even a 6 point socket alone wont save you. Its good insurance to have however. 6 point wrenches are entirely different argument. They are mostly useless aside from very small fasteners in my opinion.
For automotive stuff where there a lots of smaller fasteners that are blind holes I understand wanting to use 6 points to avoid drilling it out or having to weld something to it to remove it. If its REALLY bad even a 6 point socket alone wont save you. Its good insurance to have however. 6 point wrenches are entirely different argument. They are mostly useless aside from very small fasteners in my opinion.
MikeF2316
Well-known member
I think it's people like what they're used to. If you've worked with one set of units all your life, you don't want to change.
We never changed building material dimensions when we switched to Metric. They decided that there would be too much extra cost, with all the houses that had 8 foot walls, etc. We still go to Lowes and buy 1½x3½ lumber too!
And I grew up with 12 point sockets, and have rounded a few bolts with them. Bolts that later came out with 6 point sockets.
Rounding or stripping is all about material displacement. When the nut or bolt starts to round off, where does the displaced metal go?How the fit looks on the pic is deceiving, it looks like the fastener fits into the 6 point opening almost perfectly but of course this isnt the case. When the spanner is turned the vast majority of the load is still applied just back from the corner of the fastener, shown below;
A good 12 point socket or spanner with a modern profile will also apply the majority of force onto these flats, commonly called flank drive or OGV;
Obviously this is from Facom but every other make will be similar, if the bolt starts to round then more material would need to be moved out of the way for the fastener to turn freely inside a 6 point socket than a 12, but its not much more and the bolt would have to be very soft or badly corroded to let that much of it deform.
The less space there is between the fastener and bolt, the more it stays intact.
No more is this apparent than on small aluminum bolts such as on 80's BMW thermostat bleeder screws. An already stripped bolt from a 12 point wrench can often still be undone with a 6 point wrench.
WittHay
Well-known member
A lot if it has to do with bolt hardness. Old equipment companies like International Harvester made there own bolts that were harder than today's fasteners. You can use a 12 point socket to take off most bolts on a 40 year old tractor but you need a 6 point to take off fasteners on a 5 year old car without rounding them
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cliftonbros89
Well-known member
I'd say that's true, depending on the time. I've noticed that with a Deere as well. But some stuff that's not always the case. War time they didn't always have the best metal to use for production lines.
As a CE you also get to deal with 10ths/100ths of a foot, too, I bet...
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Hyster Gareth
Well-known member
Absolutely much of the hardware in use today is softer than older hardware. This shows up with rounding off and other associated issues.
When I was an apprentice all we used were 12 point and never had any issues. I have both but still prefer 12 point. Personal preference for me use what suits you best.
M_George
Well-known member
I only have a few six point Snap-on's, but for bolts sizes that I commonly have to torque loose they are the way to go. Saved me a lot of trouble many times.
Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
The square drive on a normal 6 point socket is indexed so turning it 90 degrees will allow it to reach the other 6 points that a 12 point socket is broached for.
By constantly removing and turning the 6 point socket on the breaker bar, you can remove any bolt or nut that you could remove with a 12 point socket. But it is a PITA.
Hello guys old post but unfortunately missed the real inside knowledge, the only reason 12pt sockets became so popular and companies are pushing it on us is the fact that they do not brake, these sockets are immortal what they do is round up your nuts so its your problem to deal with! No warranty replacements no bad reviews no problems for them, it's even good for business cause once you rounded enough nutsyou are gonna come back to the store and buy another 6pt set! It's a perfect little con. ;-)
Not to dredge up an old thread, but this guy might have been onto something...
Has anyone ever wondered why Sears pushes those damn 3/8” deep 12 point 18 Pc SAE/Metric socket sets every holiday season for $19.99? Probably their most sold socket set and it’s likely the most useless one they sell.
redmondjp
Well-known member
I have a Quincy 325 but I have yet to see any 12-point bolt heads on it - are they hidden somewhere that I can't see?
Mikeske
Well-known member
I have both 12 point and 6 point in all the normal sizes in metric and SAE. I also had over 40 years to accumulate tools. I find that most work on vehicles that the 12 point is my normal go to as they are the easiest to use and will normally get the job done. About the only point that the 12 fails is on rusted on fasteners and thats where the 6 point comes into play. I normally prefer the 12 point but I also do not live in the rust belt so rusty fasteners normally are not a issue.
In aircraft there is a lot more tight places and then it is the majority of the time of the 12 points to the rescue. On extremely large aircraft fasteners it is 6 point only as they can be grumpy if you try to use the 12 point. Generally the large aircraft fasteners are in areas that have good access
In aircraft there is a lot more tight places and then it is the majority of the time of the 12 points to the rescue. On extremely large aircraft fasteners it is 6 point only as they can be grumpy if you try to use the 12 point. Generally the large aircraft fasteners are in areas that have good access
A 6 point spanner is also ideal for braking loose caliper bleed valves that have seen better days, facom sell a set of L wrenches that are ideal for this kind of work.
I've invested in a set of 12 point impacts as a few VAG cars are now coming with 12 point fasteners on the suspension set-up.
I've invested in a set of 12 point impacts as a few VAG cars are now coming with 12 point fasteners on the suspension set-up.
Ji m
Well-known member
for the most part,
my 12 point sockets are thinner than the same socket in a 6 point.
Maybe this goes back to RODRIGO DA SILVA's post about being more likely to break a 6pt (due to increased max torque transfer),
but when I need a thinner wall socket for something like a Mag wheel, or certain Spark Plugs,
my 12 points are always the thinnest choice.
I have both in most sizes,
and use what ever is handy, unless/until special circumstances demand one, or the other.
my 12 point sockets are thinner than the same socket in a 6 point.
Maybe this goes back to RODRIGO DA SILVA's post about being more likely to break a 6pt (due to increased max torque transfer),
but when I need a thinner wall socket for something like a Mag wheel, or certain Spark Plugs,
my 12 points are always the thinnest choice.
I have both in most sizes,
and use what ever is handy, unless/until special circumstances demand one, or the other.
jonesg
Well-known member
There are certain brands of sockets (and wrenches) in 12pt that are more reputable for this alleged trait than others.
Maybe we should start polling these people rounding off bolts to find out the details.
I have never rounded off a bolt that didn't have it coming.
That'll learn them.
16again
Well-known member
I prefer 6 point sockets. When there's a real need for a 12 point I will use it.
I've always preferred 6pt sockets, probably due to living in the rust belt and having to deal with rusted on, or even nuts and bolt heads that are slightly undersized from rust. Lately tho I've been running into 12pt bolts so I've picked up a few sets of 12pt sockets. I still reach for the 6pts, maybe more out of habit than anything else now days.
I have had times where a 12 point socket got a better bite on a corroded fastener than 6 point socket. Especially when someone either already rounded it or the fastener was very
corroded.
I have had it the other way as well.
I use whatever socket works best. Sometimes cheaper sockets work better, because of the chamfered opening of the socket, which does make it more convenient to get on a fastener, but sometime does not bite as well when there is not much left to get a bite on.
My impact sockets are all 6 point. With bigger fasteners it does not make as much of a difference, it matters more with smaller stuff. I think another factor that is really more important is the quality of the fastener. Cheap soft beat up fasteners, are more likely to strip. I notice cheap fateners tend to be very soft, and morph shape easier.
corroded.
I have had it the other way as well.
I use whatever socket works best. Sometimes cheaper sockets work better, because of the chamfered opening of the socket, which does make it more convenient to get on a fastener, but sometime does not bite as well when there is not much left to get a bite on.
My impact sockets are all 6 point. With bigger fasteners it does not make as much of a difference, it matters more with smaller stuff. I think another factor that is really more important is the quality of the fastener. Cheap soft beat up fasteners, are more likely to strip. I notice cheap fateners tend to be very soft, and morph shape easier.
My son always gives me a hard time over the fact that most of my sockets and box end wrenches are 12 pt. I keep telling him that back when I bought them (late 1960's-1970's) the sockets were fine and the ratchets were coarse. Often ratchets were 24-36T and under certain conditions there wasn't room to swing the handle enough to engage the next tooth hence the need for 12pt. sockets. Today's fine tooth ratchets have really reduced the need for 12pt. sockets. Also back in the day a "metric" socket was a SAE 12pt. and a hammer to get it on the nut/bolt head.
Htscheg
Well-known member
Trouble is you need both these days, Harley for example has a mixture of both fastners in both SAE and MM on each bike, the bastards!
bsaint
Well-known member
Lots of hydro components have 12 point fasteners
Even though I'm primarily a weekend-warrior type that just works on my own stuff or helps neighbors out, I've went to 12 points plenty of times for the same reasons as many have already stated. Primarily for blind tight spots where I need more wiggle space to get on a fastener. Most recently I was helping a neighbor replace a transmission in his garage and accessing most of those hidden bolts (often times with super long extensions and flex adaptors) required 12 points. Just my two cents. So yeah, they aren't my go-to sockets but I love having them around as a safety net. Same is true with the 12-point combo wrenches. Unless there is a monumental amount of rust or other wear, or tons of torque, I don't have a problem with 12 points.
johno
Well-known member
Or Harley caliper mounts.
johno
Well-known member
And don't forget all those lovely Torx bolts too, the bastards.