Anyone else noticed this? Seems like every German tool manufacturer has every conceivable configuration of Torx bits, sockets and drivers available for sale. Like you cannot buy a German tool assortment without Torx bits and sockets being added in, like it or not.
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Why do Germans love Torx so much?
- Thread starter noahwins
- Start date
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
Because German cars use a ton of "bit" style fasteners. Why do the German people love torx/allen/xzn/ten point/nonsense fasteners? I would imagine a genetic defect which emerged locally in that area of Europe.
Professional Tool User
Well-known member
Because there are loads of retarded engineers who like to add new bit designs.
RacerX
Well-known member
A scheme to sell more bits and tools, IMO.
I agree with this
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Handyandy23
Well-known member
I'm pretty indifferent to torx in automotive applications, but I do think torx >>> Phillips or slotted. I'd welcome seeing more torx in building.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
The patent ran out on Torx a few years ago. I was hoping no other new "standards" would be invented !
There is some, but a lot of building fasteners use square (Robertson) drive.
I'd welcome seeing more torx in building.
There is some, but a lot of building fasteners use square (Robertson) drive.
Wouldn't surprise me if a company like Würth didn't have incentive contracts with manufacturers to get fasteners out there. Even if they have to give them away to the manufacturing plants then you get exclusive supply contracts for dealer and end user repair.
txvwnut
Well-known member
It’s their way at getting back at us for kicking their *** in the war.
PhysicsDude
Well-known member
Torx is a superior design in pretty much every metric.
If I lived in Germany/Europe, I would wonder why Americans are so obsessed with Phillips drive, when its a clearly inferior design.
Totally agree about the new torx designs though... leave good enough alone.
If I lived in Germany/Europe, I would wonder why Americans are so obsessed with Phillips drive, when its a clearly inferior design.
Totally agree about the new torx designs though... leave good enough alone.
Torx is a superior design in pretty much every metric.
If I lived in Germany/Europe, I would wonder why Americans are so obsessed with Phillips drive, when its a clearly inferior design.
Totally agree about the new torx designs though... leave good enough alone.
Except when it is on an engine and the torx bolts are shallow and easy to strip or when they use inverted torx.....
It’s their way of being “unique.”
I'm pretty indifferent to torx in automotive applications, but I do think torx >>> Phillips or slotted. I'd welcome seeing more torx in building.
Agreed, or even square drive. I hate Phillips immensely at this point
techieman33
Well-known member
Torx is great for screws. But it and all it's variants have gotten way out of control on bolts. There's nothing wrong with the standard hex head that's been around forever.
I read somewhere that torx allows a greater torque for a given diameter than Allen, presumably also true for e-torx and standard hex.
Torx is a lot better than Philips and seems to strip less than Allen, but it's always felt like it's used in a lot of places a regular hex bolt would do just fine.
Torx is a lot better than Philips and seems to strip less than Allen, but it's always felt like it's used in a lot of places a regular hex bolt would do just fine.
TTMotorsports
Well-known member
The sprinter Van's have torx and e torx everything. Plastic trim. Bell housing. Steering shaft. Driveshaft.
californiaHank
Well-known member
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- 487
Lotsa torx on lotsa European cars. For many years. Even the license plate holder on my '90s Saab had torx screws. I'm no fan of the more exotic fasteners that find their way into pretty much every recent car from pretty much every maker, but I kind of like plain old torx. Unless the fastener is totally corroded, torx is a lot better than old-school Philips or hex.
ChevyEFI
Well-known member
Is it a beneficial change?
I think quadrajet airhorn screws with torx are better than slotted, but I have seen old school guys ***** about them.
Allen seems easier to strip than torx. But male tools to female fastener heads when 6 point hex head bolts have no interior it or clearance issues seems pointless. Especially in corrosion prone locations.
I think quadrajet airhorn screws with torx are better than slotted, but I have seen old school guys ***** about them.
Allen seems easier to strip than torx. But male tools to female fastener heads when 6 point hex head bolts have no interior it or clearance issues seems pointless. Especially in corrosion prone locations.
Qualitytools
Well-known member
Mercedes Benz loves to use torx and e-torx fasteners.
So does BMW, Porsche on the other hand likes to use some triple square on top of that
Bogdan M.
Well-known member
Mercedes Benz loves to use torx and e-torx fasteners.
BMW too.
The tool brands produce those bits and sockets because there is a need for them.
And the need is due to the automotive manufacturer which wants to make things harder for independent mechanics or DIYers.
Mercedes and BMW use torx, e-torx and security torx. VW Audi use XZN
E torx is a good type of fastener IMO. A lot of torque and a smaller size head in comparison with a normal hex bolt.
matt_i
Well-known member
I think its all about use of material and possibly the cost of heading the fastener.
Hex head bolt is a large amount of material to be displaced to get the head. Internal wrenching fasteners use less material and less amount displaced to make the head.
But, if you cut apart a standard socket head (internal hexagon) bolt its pretty weak down at the bottom. The torx with its higher torque transmission capability, allows a smaller internal recess and so more "meat" in the bottom of the fastener and again the smaller amount of material is working more uniformly as a stressed piece.
Auto industry is famous for trying to shave cents because of the 6 to 8 figure volumes, especially in fasteners which may commonize across many vehicle platforms.
Hex head bolt is a large amount of material to be displaced to get the head. Internal wrenching fasteners use less material and less amount displaced to make the head.
But, if you cut apart a standard socket head (internal hexagon) bolt its pretty weak down at the bottom. The torx with its higher torque transmission capability, allows a smaller internal recess and so more "meat" in the bottom of the fastener and again the smaller amount of material is working more uniformly as a stressed piece.
Auto industry is famous for trying to shave cents because of the 6 to 8 figure volumes, especially in fasteners which may commonize across many vehicle platforms.
Super Mech
Well-known member
I personally think inverted Torx bolts have no place in structural automotive applications(undercarriage, suspension parts,etc) or other high torque applications or those exposed to corrosion. The heads of the bolts never seem to have a deep enough recess to get a decent bite on. I’m ok with it for interior trim and electronic stuff but keep it out of the frame and engine thank you.
I'd be glad if every fastener I ran into was a torx design & not Phillips or flat. Its simply a much better design in many aspects. Its no surprise German engineers who for many generations now have led the world engineering wise, like using the superior Torx design. And yes we did kick their **** in the war but it took half the worlds best fighting forces to do it given their war machine of planes, tanks & arms were far more superior.
Handyandy23
Well-known member
For many Audi services, the book calls for replacing ALL Fasteners EVERY time. One time use fasteners, like aircraft.
I guess it eliminates the possibility of broken or stripped fasteners.
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A lot of GM fasteners are the same. The reason is that they are "torque to yield" fasteners. This means the bolts actually stretch a little at torque.
Basically they save a few pennies (and small amounts of weight) in being able to spec a smaller bolt that will achieve the same clamp force, because the bolt actually deforms.
Handyandy23
Well-known member
There is some, but a lot of building fasteners use square (Robertson) drive.
Sqaure drive is definitely common for wood screws and stuff like that. I do like Robertson a lot more than Phillips, but even it can be finicky. Because of the tapered head design I find you have to continually be pushing down on them to reduce the chances of stripping.
If I could buy a torx deck screw I'd gladly give it a shot.
manwithtools
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Sqaure drive is definitely common for wood screws and stuff like that. I do like Robertson a lot more than Phillips, but even it can be finicky. Because of the tapered head design I find you have to continually be pushing down on them to reduce the chances of stripping.
If I could buy a torx deck screw I'd gladly give it a shot.
Are Robertson deck screws still the norm in Canada? In the US, Torx deck screws have pretty much taken over.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
Torx (and the improved Torx Plus) allows for much higher torque than hex drives at a given size. Socket head cap screws and Torx screws are very common in modern, high-end designs because they are extremely compact. That gives you more room to put your mechanical bits without needing to worry about clearance for hex head screws and the necessary tools to turn them.
Jazz1
Well-known member
I have to carry a Torx screwdriver in my work bag for years as big truck manufacturers use Torx to anchor the interior, in particular the dash.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
Torx (and the improved Torx Plus) allows for much higher torque than hex drives at a given size. Socket head cap screws and Torx screws are very common in modern, high-end designs because they are extremely compact. That gives you more room to put your mechanical bits without needing to worry about clearance for hex head screws and the necessary tools to turn them.
Until the 1/8mm deep head is full of rust, with no good way to clean out. Or you go off center by 1* while loosening and blow the lobes off. Torx is fine for wood screws and trim. It has no place holding on leaf springs, or wheel bearings.
Etrox has a similar issue with the tapered design, the contact area rots away. While most fancy fasteners had CAD approved advantages, I find 6 point works the best in the real world.
eschoendorff
Well-known member
I always thought that the use of torx was about assembly efficiency. They use what makes sense to assemble the car and let the aftermarket service industry fend for itself and try to keep up.
FSrepair&fabrication
Well-known member
I was working on a diesel bmw for a family friend who was an engineer. I said “why do they have to use all these stupid variety of bolts?”. His reply was “They dont want you working on it. BMW wants you to be scared of the job and take it to them.”
Makes the most sense to me the more I think of it.
Makes the most sense to me the more I think of it.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
I always thought that the use of torx was about assembly efficiency. They use what makes sense to assemble the car and let the aftermarket service industry fend for itself and try to keep up.
Torx has lower wear on tooling than Phillips; which was my understanding for its use is smaller higher volume applications. Anyone whose built a deck knows torx does a better job than Phillips, no denying that.
To me, it's a false advantage. It's like saying Syphilis is good, because HIV is worse. I'd rather have a clean bill of health with my 6 point fasteners.
Bogdan M.
Well-known member
I was working on a diesel bmw for a family friend who was an engineer. I said “why do they have to use all these stupid variety of bolts?”. His reply was “They dont want you working on it. BMW wants you to be scared of the job and take it to them.”
Makes the most sense to me the more I think of it.
In some cases you should really be scared.
FSrepair&fabrication
Well-known member
^youre completely right on that, I avoid those kinds of jobs for the most part. I consider myself a pretty experienced mechanic, but some things are best left to the people who work on them every day.
Until the 1/8mm deep head is full of rust, with no good way to clean out. Or you go off center by 1* while loosening and blow the lobes off. Torx is fine for wood screws and trim. It has no place holding on leaf springs, or wheel bearings.
Etrox has a similar issue with the tapered design, the contact area rots away. While most fancy fasteners had CAD approved advantages, I find 6 point works the best in the real world.
It seems manufacturers of consumer grade equipment don't consider the common issues in the rust belt.
I agree with those who have said torx plus is far superior where a cap screw is used especially compared to slotted or cross form. Anywhere exposed to the elements the plain old hex bolt seems the be the clear winner for easy repairability but perhaps it increases production costs. I don't know enough about automated/high volume assembly methods to have an educated opinion.
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Bogdan M.
Well-known member
^youre completely right on that, I avoid those kinds of jobs for the most part. I consider myself a pretty experienced mechanic, but some things are best left to the people who work on them every day.
I work on them every day and some are really a nightmare.
Especially the newer diesel ones.
Even if you know what to do, there's always a chance that the engine wiring will fail and after a fairly straightforward job you are left with errors because one wire is now broken and you have to repair or replace the wiring. Very small space to work with is another issue.
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rlitman
Well-known member
Torx is a superior design in pretty much every metric.
If I lived in Germany/Europe, I would wonder why Americans are so obsessed with Phillips drive, when its a clearly inferior design.
Totally agree about the new torx designs though... leave good enough alone.
They do wonder exactly that. That's why pozidriv is all over Europe. Look more closely at EVERY screw that comes with Ikea furniture.