Why do Germans love Torx so much?

[Rinspeed]

I assume sarcasm with the smilies. I can afford both nonissue. Just don’t like them

Double tap.

 

[Wakefield]

The "drive angle" in my posts refers to the angle at which the driver contacts the fastener edges. Hex sockets have a 60 degree drive angle, which promotes smearing and deformation of the head and tool. This really limits the amount of torque you can reliably (and repeatedly) apply to a fastener without damage.

Torx has a 15 degree drive angle (Torx Plus has a 0 degree), which means nearly all of the force gets applied tangentially to the axis of rotation. This radically improves tool life, and allows more torque at a given head size.

Your claims saying they're "not good for much else" are based solely on rusty undercarriage screws. Like I've said many times, where you need features like high-torque at a given size, high tool life, and high fastener life - Torx is where it's at all. I've worked in industries where they replaced all of the fasteners on their tool with Torx Plus in place of standard hex head cap screws. Stripped and damaged screws basically disappeared.

Should have invented/started with Torx Plus in the first place and never bothered with the "regular" one

Internal and external spline drive?

 

[Rinspeed]

I assume sarcasm with the smilies. I can afford both nonissue. Just don’t like them

You didn't answer my question. If BMW and Benz are such **** what the hell do you drive that is so great.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

You didn't answer my question. If BMW and Benz are such **** what the hell do you drive that is so great.

Japanese cars which are usually better engineered with fewer silly quirks.

Imagine a car where the entire cooling system isn't a maintenance item. Imagine a car where the manufacturer doesn't put absorbent blocks on the under-tray to catch the oil leaks.
Imagine a car where the rear springs last more than 10 years (looking at YOU E-class)



The performance versions are fun; effortless speed. The typical neglected audi A6, 10yo 3 series with 4 bent wheels, or MB with broken springs which I see on a regular basis leave a sour taste in my mouth. IMO unless your german car is 3yo or less, you're are poser. Lease and trade in, all those cars are designed to do. Based on the neglectful OE maintenance schedules the engines are burning and leaking oil by 50k.

Give me a lexus - I want the AC to work and to not have to walk. Frankly the new camrys looks pretty nice.



With a name like Rinspeed, I imagine you enjoy german cars. Nothing wrong with that, I'm considering a turbo VAG product for my next car. There are things very nice about Euro stuff but they're also deeply flawed.

 

[American Locomotive]

German and Japanese engineering are indeed different. German engineering prioritizes performance and functionality above all else. They like cutting edge technologies, and they'll gladly increase the parts-count on a sub-assembly by 30% if it means 5% more performance.

Japanese engineering seems to focus a lot on durability and reliability. They tend to be a bit more conservative, but will push their older, more mature technology to high performing levels.

It's why a 1992 Lexus LS400 has a dedicated old-school cold-start injector, when most American manufacturers hadn't needed that in their EFI systems for 5+ years. It's why the 1996 LS400 still had an antiquated throttle-valve cable controlling the transmission line pressure, when Ford had been using electronic pressure control since '89. But despite that, the LS400 redefined what a high quality, performant luxury sedan could be.

This carries over into other industries as well. I used to work with high end German and Japanese CNC equipment. The German machines were fast, powerful and super accurate - but very trouble prone. Lots of complexity, lots of special tools and procedures to service them. Real headache. The Japanese machines weren't quite as fast or accurate, but they rarely broke, and when they did you could fix 'em with a hammer.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

German and Japanese engineering are indeed different. German engineering prioritizes performance and functionality above all else. They like cutting edge technologies, and they'll gladly increase the parts-count on a sub-assembly by 30% if it means 5% more performance.

Japanese engineering seems to focus a lot on durability and reliability. They tend to be a bit more conservative, but will push their older, more mature technology to high performing levels.

It's why a 1992 Lexus LS400 has a dedicated old-school cold-start injector, when most American manufacturers hadn't needed that in their EFI systems for 5+ years. It's why the 1996 LS400 still had an antiquated throttle-valve cable controlling the transmission line pressure, when Ford had been using electronic pressure control since '89. But despite that, the LS400 redefined what a high quality, performant luxury sedan could be.

This carries over into other industries as well. I used to work with high end German and Japanese CNC equipment. The German machines were fast, powerful and super accurate - but very trouble prone. Lots of complexity, lots of special tools and procedures to service them. Real headache. The Japanese machines weren't quite as fast or accurate, but they rarely broke, and when they did you could fix 'em with a hammer.

Best way to put it right there. They're dying for that last %, no matter the cost.

I'd love to talk to an anthropologist about what makes the Japanese and German peoples like they are.

 

[CJM8515]

You didn't answer my question. If BMW and Benz are such **** what the hell do you drive that is so great.

Previously Toyota’s and currently an f150. It’s built simpler and better than German vehicles.

If you like them that’s fine. I’m not a fan in the least

 

[ThePostman]

Indie shop mechanic, the Germans and the rest of the europeans want to make the diyer not work on their own stuff. I'm going to throw GM under the bus too, there was a known tube seal leak on the back bank, on the 3.6L, and the only way to get the valve cover on that was to pull the motor. First generation. This is unacceptable. It's seems to me for a while that engineering departments do not talk to each other in the US. There has been A lot of garbage engineering lately. Gm and ford both have no problem having just an oil change spill all over the sway bar and going everywhere. Plastic crankcases from Ford with their yellow plug that must be replaced every time other wise it leaks, garbage design. Maybe I'm on the wrong thread, but I'm a toyota man forever at this point, that drives a civic that I've replaced everything on except a few parts. My wife gets the toyota, scion Tc really. Maybe the wrong thread for this rant, but the Japanese really have it down for engine space, workability, and durability. Every euro car seems to piss from everywhere after 3 years, I can appreciate the usability of torx, especially in wood screws and robertson drive as well, it is superior to Phillips in that regard. I have a BS in PSYC, pro mechanic, euro cars are made by assholes, for assholes, that will never lift a finger on their car, and if you have vw or opel, you are an ******* with not enough money.

 

[ThePostman]

For the record, us engineering has been garbage too for a while. How about that pentastar with a 110k mile warranty on the left bank, or having a valve spring break, same motor, or even better, just piss oil from the filter assembly, that you know about and your tsb says for info only, Dodge chrysler ***** balls too, who has the controlling interest? Fiat, garbage, shocker, after daimler made them dependent on drive train parts.

 

[ThePostman]

I have torx screws for wood, t25, electro galvanized, I like them. They do have a place. I love them for that. They don't cam ot. Furniture making is my hobby.

 

[FuzzyTiger]

I'm a big fan of German vehicles (I own 3 Porsche's) and I wrench on them myself and I have to say each brand has a very different 'feel' to it, and different eras as well.

Modern BMW - Cutting edge innovation in just how much of a $150,000 car they can make out of plastic. Hint: Its a lot. Valve covers made out of plastic and are a maintenance item that needs to be replaced. A hood attached with... Plastic. Interconnected computer systems that are an absolute nightmare to deal with. I'm currently 20 hours into replacing a $5 alternator bracket gasket. Why does a bracket need a gasket? Because the engine has a hole in it. Why does the engine have a hole in it? Who knows. It serves literally no purpose because it gets blocked off by the bracket and gasket... But its there and it requires removing the motor mounts, alternator, power steering pump and parts of the suspension to access.

Modern Porsche - Engineers playing Tetris with components. It takes a good 30 minutes to an hour to peel back enough layers to find where basic components are. But despite the tight packaging, it all ends up making sense. Their computer systems are annoying but much less so than BMW's and most other manufacturers. I do prefer BMW's electrical connectors over Porsche/VAG's connectors. Older Porsche electrical connectors were hands down the best though. Metal retaining clips that can be popped out with a flat head with no risk of breaking any stupid plastic tabs? Why did we ever stop doing that?!

Older Porsche (1990 and earlier) - Takes a moment to figure out what you're looking at but then its fairly straight forward. Lots of bolts though. They really wanted to make sure stuff stayed put I think. Thankfully its mostly all metal. Building engines out of plastic wasn't the cool thing back then. Building them out of cutting edge metals on the other hand was, and that has its issues (Alusil/Nikasil).

I haven't had the chance to work on older BMW's or any Benz's but maybe some day. The one common theme though with the Germans seems to be trying to use every possible socket size and fastener type and require as many specialty tools as possible. Its like they're playing bingo and they absolutely need 4 different hex sizes, 2 different torx, and at least one weird 'gotcha' thing for every component.

I also have a Hyundai and I really had to stand there and appreciate it's engine compartment for a while. I learned that everything can be easily accessible without having to remove 5 other things first and that 1 or 2 sockets can probably get you through most jobs. You might not even need wobbles, extensions, u-joints, 4 different types of fasteners and at least 1 torque to yield bolt, and specialty scan tools to change the oil. Its almost madness.

Having said all that, I still love German cars and even enjoy wrenching on them. I just do it as a hobby though and I have my Hyundai so I can always step away and come back to something later if its frustrating me. I feel for the people that have to deal with them professionally or own them without the desire to work on them or a manufacturer's warranty.

 

[dnschmidt]

I'll simplify all of this for you. German cars you lease. Jap cars you buy. What's so tough about that?

 

[Mechanical Noise]

Best way to put it right there. They're dying for that last %, no matter the cost.

I'd love to talk to an anthropologist about what makes the Japanese and German peoples like they are.

I think the reason why Japanese products have an emphasis on reliability is pretty obvious. After WW2, they figured exporting more cheap junk wasn't going to pay the bills. Sell electronics in the US? Discount stores were a great opportunity, but K-Mart wasn't running one of those "We Service What We Sell" shops that used to dot the landscape. Sell cars in Africa? Don't plan of having a fully stocked dealer in every city and town!

I also think a reason that there are national characteristics to various industries is that the dominant corporations in a industry and country also come to dominate the educational system and then the language barrier helps keep everybody stovepiped.

 

[visionguru]

Japanese cars which are usually better engineered with fewer silly quirks.
...

I think so too when occasionally working on my Honda and Audi. When I was changing the engine air filter, I need to take off 10 torx screws of two different sizes. Seriously? Honda only has 4, and I can use either a phillips screwdriver or a 10mm socket. I remember on the older Honda I used to own, there were no screws for the air filter, 4 clips instead.

German engineers are rather stupid in comparison with Japanese engineers.

 

[aka Larry]

Modern BMW - Cutting edge innovation in just how much of a $150,000 car they can make out of plastic. Hint: Its a lot. Valve covers made out of plastic and are a maintenance item that needs to be replaced. A hood attached with... Plastic. Interconnected computer systems that are an absolute nightmare to deal with. I'm currently 20 hours into replacing a $5 alternator bracket gasket. Why does a bracket need a gasket? Because the engine has a hole in it. Why does the engine have a hole in it? Who knows. It serves literally no purpose because it gets blocked off by the bracket and gasket... But its there and it requires removing the motor mounts, alternator, power steering pump and parts of the suspension to access.

I race with a guy who's a BMW tech. Interestingly enough his race car is a '99 Cobra. He says "I work on BMWs all day long, thus I know enough that I'll never own one".

I know a another guy who works exclusively on BMWs that says you should lease any BWM newer than an E46, and get rid of it before the warranty is up!

I'm in the camp of German engineers like to take something simple and see how they can make it complicated.

 

[Samuel D]

German engineers are rather stupid in comparison with Japanese engineers.

Nonsense, of course. However, Japanese management know-how retains a significant lead over German management. Toyota’s entire design process is enormously simpler than that of any German maker, and that does lead to simpler, better products.

On the other hand, not everyone wants a boring, often literally ugly (as opposed to the anodyne of 20 years ago), sensible, economic Japanese car. Some people want more power than makes any sense, cutting-edge tech gimmicks, luxury, and – especially – a status symbol. German brands have somehow managed to keep a lock on nearly the entire aspirational market, and that has steadily increased in size for all of my lifetime with no end is sight.

And the Germans do do some things better than anyone else, aerodynamics being an obvious example. The Mercedes-Benz A-class saloon has a drag coefficient of 0.22. That is a mass-production world record and equates to seriously impressive fuel economy at high-speed cruise, especially with the small engines available in Europe (still massively more powerful than anyone needs except for status). You don’t really see that in the fuel-economy specs, because they’re not based on cruising at 130 km/h into a 15-knot three-quarters headwind, but you do see it in the real world – if that’s your real world.

No modern car including Japanese ones will age as well as a W201. The market no longer values durability as much as CarPlay, self-parking gimmicks, active-safety automation features that lead to lower insurance costs, incrementally improved fuel economy, emissions compliance with tough new standards, etc. Those may even be good things (lower emissions are critically important in cities, for example), but they’re often incompatible with long lifespan – especially now that a Merc or BMW or Volkswagen costs barely more than an equivalent non-German car.

 

[TuxThePenguin]

Overly complex stuff that breaks is bad engineering

deciding to put a bunch of hard plastic in your engine bay all over the place when it's not necessary and it gets brittle and causes problems and has been doing so for years, yet continuing to do the same stupid **** as VW group does, is bad engineering

Germans are the absolute best at being terrible engineers, yes. It's like... they have so much potential, and it seems like they should make excellent engineers. But then they over-complicate everything and turn simple jobs into hours-long ones.

Mercedes cars are ugly and have literally the worst interiors. They do idiotic stuff like putting buttons in the door pockets. I would never consider owning one just because they are awful to operate. And they're one of the brands leading the pack of "no visibility out of the damn car" in several of their models. Comparing them to Japanese sensibility is almost insulting.

(at least Audi makes a very nice looking car (I even think the normal VWs look pretty decent), but after owning 2, never again, I want to be able to do stuff in my engine bay without replacing plastic coolant blocks and PCV lines and other stupid **** that has never plagued any other car brand; every time I'd touch those cars I would wish I just had a normal car)

 

[Samuel D]

deciding to put a bunch of hard plastic in your engine bay all over the place when it's not necessary and it gets brittle and causes problems and has been doing so for years, yet continuing to do the same stupid **** as VW group does, is bad engineering

It’s necessary to cut costs. Cutting costs is good engineering. Furthermore, cutting costs has been an essential pillar of the German rise to ********** of the car market.

BMWs used to be rare and expensive. They’re now one of the most common brands in Paris and most other places I’ve been in Europe. That’s in large part because BMW has somehow managed to retain a premium brand image while cutting out the premium costs – like anything that allows a car to last essentially indefinitely by following a 150-point maintenance schedule.

And they're one of the brands leading the pack of "no visibility out of the damn car" in several of their models. Comparing them to Japanese sensibility is almost insulting.

Doesn’t sound like you’ve driven a recent Japanese car. They have the same massive A-pillars, daft electronic gadgetry everywhere, senselessly large wheels with senselessly low-profile tyres, etc., as German cars.

The Germans define what people want in a car and the whole world follows. For now. I’m hoping Tesla will knock some sense into them.

 

[Rinspeed]

Previously Toyota’s and currently an f150. It’s built simpler and better than German vehicles.

I have a F150 as well and it has cost me more to repair than both the beamers put together.

 

[richfinn]

I've always preferred Volvo's over the German brands

I just dont get what the fuss is all about, would anybody really want the repair/service costs on a 5-10 yr old German supertaxi?

They are literally ten a penny in the UK, I'm guessing they still hold some luxury cachet in the USA?

Porsches make absolute sense in comparison!!!

I think Lexus is a far better alternative, technically and stylistically