Why does Snap-On continuously make people rage?

[dchawk81]

Okay guys. Happy Sunday. I’m going to talk to my bolts and find out how their weekends have been so far. Maybe see if my wrenches want to go out for a coffee.

Folgers.

 

[dchawk81]

Typically, not always, but typically better performing tools are considered better quality. You can get sort of hairy here with non-standard designs, but just picking on "regular" style tools without wild offset geometry.

I'm not making a brand argument, the fastener doesn't "know" it was a proto and chose to release easier because it like proto. My argument is that something like Proto will typically have better tolerances and geometry compared to other brands, and given a fixed number of fasteners in a variety of conditions will remove more all else equal than a lower performing tool. Given 10,000 fasteners beginning at a perfect center tolerance bolt and degrading into a complete circle with no chance of removal, a center tolerance Wright wrench or whoever is considered top quality will make it out with a high % of removed fasteners. Higher as a percentage, than a cheaper brand. However this isn't a straight [$=additional fasteners] conversion factor of 1/1.


The result of this, is most brands will remove X fasteners. Higher quality tools have better heat treat, better steel/alloy, better tolerance design and hold. As price climbs another line climbs at a lower rate where more $$$ should equal more fasteners removed. The biggest gap is at the bottom. The blank branded wrench that says "drop forge china" may cost $1, and stepping up to a $5 is a much bigger increase in performance than the $25 wrench despite the cost being multiplied by a factor of 5 both times.


If price is y=X, increased performance is more like y= (squareroot)X




Imagine a fastener, flush with optimism, only to find it's being installed into a Hyundai. While it's batch-mates go on to a Toyota. That bolt felt pain.



I'd agree, but I still feel some mechanical empathy. It saddens me to see a neglected vehicle or object. It had more to give, and was squandered.

Your argument is the same as mine. A fastener has tolerances and a tool has tolerances. You find the best match. It's NOT a brand thing. I have a bunch of different sets of wrenches of different brands and "quality" levels for this reason. Sometimes it's actually the cheap one that's better. It happens.

Especially on these fasteners with 20 layers of paint. Looser tolerances are actually better when it's not a particularly tight fastener.

 

[dchawk81]

I'd agree, but I still feel some mechanical empathy. It saddens me to see a neglected vehicle or object. It had more to give, and was squandered.

I have mechanical empathy as well but they sure as heck don't reciprocate. Both of my current vehicles were neglected resurrections.

 

[Mb4]

I also don't believe they're going to walk in and be productive. But they have the base knowledge to do the job and ability to use the tools.

Yeah. That was what I was getting at with my comment about surface olates. If someone wanted to make their own on a shoestring budget, they can. I learned how and I think learning how to do it is an essential part of learning metrology. But I’m not going to do it in a laboratory setting. It’s a waste of my time, unproductive and hence, unnecessarily expensive.

Just like cheap chit tools make a carpenter's or mechanics job *more* expensive. Most of the time, they’re not suited to critical or professional use. That’s okay. Different products for different applications. Just don’t tell me you reinvented the wheel with a Harbor Freight discount membership.

 

[CGarage]

We are amongst some real tools and idiotic points of view in this thread.

I will defer to those who are experienced turning wrenches daily to put food on the table. They are, every day “in the field”, so to speak. Experience counts.

The small percentiles of better performance a professional tool gives is actually cumulative in effect. Added up over the course of the day, it can pay real dividends, especially over time.

 

[dchawk81]

We are amongst some real tools and idiotic points of view in this thread.

I will defer to those who are experienced turning wrenches daily to put food on the table. They are, every day “in the field”, so to speak. Experience counts.

The small percentiles of better performance a professional tool gives is actually cumulative in effect. Added up over the course of the day, it can pay real dividends, especially over time.

Insulting other POVs isn't cool.

 

[zendriver]

We are amongst some real tools and idiotic points of view in this thread.

I will defer to those who are experienced turning wrenches daily to put food on the table. They are, every day “in the field”, so to speak. Experience counts.

The small percentiles of better performance a professional tool gives is actually cumulative in effect. Added up over the course of the day, it can pay real dividends, especially over time.

Over the years, I have heard professional tool owners proclaim that HF tools are junk and they would never ever step foot in the store.

I guess I was to take that as some kind of informed opinion.

 

[CGarage]

Over the years, I have heard professional tool owners proclaim that HF tools are junk and they would never ever step foot in the store.

I guess I was to take that as some kind of informed opinion.

Perhaps you were either mistaken or too easily fooled into believing they were “professional”.



Even amongst the most pretentious of tool users, it was always known that HF was the source if one needed a sacrificial tool to make a tool out of.

 

[CGarage]

Insulting other POVs isn't cool.

This is exactly the problem with the world today. The saying goes that everyone who has a POV, their POV must be respected, even if it is overwhelmingly clear that the POV is not based on worldly wisdom.

This is a problem.
It’s not learned.

 

[Mb4]

Over the years, I have heard professional tool owners proclaim that HF tools are junk and they would never ever step foot in the store.

I guess I was to take that as some kind of informed opinion.

So what? If they work for you, that’s all that matters.

 

[zendriver]

Perhaps you were either mistaken or too easily fooled into believing they were “professional”.



Even amongst the most pretentious of tool users, it was always known that HF was the source if one needed a sacrificial tool to make a tool out of.

This almost always strikes me as silly.

The owner of the "good tool" does not want to risk breaking or altering it, so they go and purchase something inexpensive, that modified, will either work fine and if it does - great. Otherwise they can complain the the inexpensive tool was just "a *************" not getting the job done. Never mind that the tool has ben cut or welded on.

Seems pretty fair evaluation.

No I don't think I am mistaken. Plenty of people today "follow the herd" and merely get their favorite opinions from the collective minds of the Internet.

 

[zendriver]

So what? If they work for you, that’s all that matters.

I thought we were discussing the opinions of others.

You are right, though.

 

[dchawk81]

This is exactly the problem with the world today. The saying goes that everyone who has a POV, their POV must be respected, even if it is overwhelmingly clear that the POV is not based on worldly wisdom.

This is a problem.
It’s not learned.

You don't have to respect it but insulting it makes you an ***.

I have an air over hydraulic bottle jack from HF that lifts my semi and holds it. I say that's a pretty good tool.

 

[dchawk81]

I thought we were discussing the opinions of others.

You are right, though.

Lucky for you and me, the opinions of others, especially on the internet, are **** all.

Excuse the French, used colloquially.

 

[CGarage]

Lucky for you and me, the opinions of others, especially on the internet, are **** all.

Excuse the French, used colloquially.

Thank you for proving my point.

There are some opinions I highly value on the internet and in a forum atmosphere such as this. But it is based on the wisdom of the opinion sharer.

In my experience, it has been easy to distinguish those who have acquired such wisdom, and those who have not.

One must consider and evaluate this.

 

[dchawk81]

Thank you for proving my point.

There are some opinions I highly value on the internet and in a forum atmosphere such as this. But it is based on the wisdom of the opinion sharer.

In my experience, it has been easy to distinguish those who have acquired such wisdom, and those who have not.

One must consider and evaluate this.

The internet is the worst place to form an opinion on someone without extensive interaction. It's words on a page.

 

[zendriver]

Lucky for you and me, the opinions of others, especially on the internet, are **** all.

Excuse the French, used colloquially.

I'm interested in the opinions of others, but in the end, they are opinions. I cannot help but wonder on how they based their opinions.

That just goes with it, as far as I'm concerned, but to quote shock Jock Howard Stern " the day I don't have an opinion, about a subject I know absolutely nothing about - is the day I am out of a job!"

 

[zendriver]

Thank you for proving my point.

There are some opinions I highly value on the internet and in a forum atmosphere such as this. But it is based on the wisdom of the opinion sharer.

In my experience, it has been easy to distinguish those who have acquired such wisdom, and those who have not.

One must consider and evaluate this.

Have you ever personally purchased and used any tool from Harbor Freight, comparing it to a similar, but more expensive truck tool?

If not then it seems you a simply choosing to agree with certain opinions, which is certainly your right.

That mindset does seem make the word or round these days. Works pretty good on YouTube.

 

[CGarage]

Have you ever personally purchased and used any tool from Harbor Freight, comparing it to a similar, but more expensive truck tool?

If not then it seems you a simply choosing to agree with certain opinions, which is certainly your right.

That mindset does seem make the word or round these days. Works pretty good on YouTube.

I have. And I posted about it within the last few days.

 

[AEAdam]

Let me see if I can nip some of this in the bud with some facts:

All bolt specs have tolerance allowed for width across flats. The tolerances for width across flats are all "unilateral" (i.e. one sided, not +/-). And they are always negatives.

Example: a 1/2" bolt has a 3/4" width across flats. The tolerance is .736-.750 or .75 +.000/-.014.

Conclusion, the best wrench for a bolt that varies in head size is the tightest most precision wrench available. Sloppier wrenches will do worse.

Exception: Corrosion ADDS to the width across flats. As does dirt and schmutz. You may have trouble getting some of the super tight fitting tools onto such hardware e.g. Snap On FX, or koken Zeal. This is why the manufacturers say these aren't everyday tools.

 

[dchawk81]

Let me see if I can nip some of this in the bud with some facts:

All bolt specs have tolerance allowed for width across flats. The tolerances for width across flats are all "unilateral" (i.e. one sided, not +/-). And they are always negatives.

Example: a 1/2" bolt has a 3/4" width across flats. The tolerance is .736-.750 or .75 +.000/-.014.

Conclusion, the best wrench for a bolt that varies in head size is the tightest most precision wrench available. Sloppier wrenches will do worse.

Exception: Corrosion ADDS to the width across flats. As does dirt and schmutz. You may have trouble getting some of the super tight fitting tools onto such hardware e.g. Snap On FX, or koken Zeal. This is why the manufacturers say these aren't everyday tools.

Which tools are "everyday?"

 

[zendriver]

Which tools are "everyday?"

Since most everything is rusted/crusted/painted, Harbor Freight?

 

[dchawk81]

Since most everything is rusted/crusted/painted, Harbor Freight?

 

[JeepYJ]

Corrosion ADDS to the width across flats.

If you think this is true 100% of the time, you are incorrect.

 

[JeepYJ]

Since most everything is rusted/crusted/painted, Harbor Freight?

Using my critical thinking skills, it would seem dirty, rusty, painted fasteners would require a wrench with more + on the tolerance side. Pittsburgh Pro FTW

 

[AEAdam]

Using my critical thinking skills, it would seem dirty, rusty, painted fasteners would require a wrench with more + on the tolerance side. Pittsburgh Pro FTW

Yes! Some people might like having a couple sloppy tools. If you ask @2ndGearRubber, he will probably tell you that's why he keeps "beater" tools that he can literally beat onto a fastener.

But @JeepYJ is also correct. Corrosion swells steel, but the swollen material isnt strong. It will come off, break off, and you will be left with a smaller fastener. (As we all know). So buying loose wrenches for corrosion can be something pros do, but the rest of us maybe not so much. I suspect a LOT of pros may start with "starter" tools, whatever they can afford, as many of us have. They typically don't dispose of those tools. They keep them for emergencies etc. I still have all my 1990s craftsman tools.

Which tools are "everyday?"

I don't know the Koken brand, but for Snap On it would just be the normal flank drive. I don't know of any other brands that have "normal" or "everyday" tools and a "super tight" series. Only Koken and Snap On. So for other brands, all their tools are everyday tools. Maybe Nepros?

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Yes! Some people might like having a couple sloppy tools. If you ask @2ndGearRubber, he will probably tell you that's why he keeps "beater" tools that he can literally beat onto a fastener.

But @JeepYJ is also correct. Corrosion swells steel, but the swollen material isnt strong. It will come off, break off, and you will be left with a smaller fastener. (As we all know). So buying loose wrenches for corrosion can be something pros do, but the rest of us maybe not so much. I suspect a LOT of pros may start with "starter" tools, whatever they can afford, as many of us have. They typically don't dispose of those tools. They keep them for emergencies etc. I still have all my 1990s craftsman tools.

I don't know the Koken brand, but for Snap On it would just be the normal flank drive. I don't know of any other brands that have "normal" or "everyday" tools and a "super tight" series. Only Koken and Snap On. So for other brands, all their tools are everyday tools. Maybe Nepros?

I generally don't have beaters if I can help it, I beat the snap on. I do keep plenty of stuff around for the odd custom tool, however as ones tool collection grows and you become more clever, you need to do less of that.

Unless it's just scale or paint the fasteners get smaller. It's not uncommon to have a 17mm blooming like a flow with rust up to 19mm, and cleaned up be a 15mm when it's just actual metal remaining.

Sloppy is relative, I don't like loose fitting anything. There's what I consider "normal" fitment and moving upward in fitment lile FDX or Zeal.

EDIT: for scale covered stuff, you can usually beat on the correct original size, then hammer/wiggle it out, and wire wheel the flats back to "normal".

 

[Ultradog MN]

I don't rage about Snap On.
I don't care much about brands.
Forging has been around for millinea. Machine forging for a couple hundred years.
It ain't rocket science. You take a piece of red hot steel and punch it into a shape in a die. One company or country can do it as well as another. After you have the basic shape you drive another die to punch the size and shape of the socket or combo wrench - or ball peen or whatever.
There is some metallurgy involved. That ain't rocket science either. A little more or less carbon in the steel or chromium or molybdimum or some darned stuff.
Maybe costs a couple pennies more per wrench for better alloys. Afterwards they have to finish the thing. Maybe Snap On does a better job. Lets them sit in the electrolysis bath a little longer that adds another thousandth or two of chrome plating.
I have some black finish Williams wrenches. They are excellent and I defy anyone to show me a more sturdy tool.
But they aren't pretty.
And pretty counts.
How much stress a ratchet can take is measureable too. It aint rocket science.
A home spun tool company with good engineers can configure a rachet to be very strong.
Snap On makes Very good tools. Their tools check all the boxes - strength wear resistance, appearance, rust resistance, longevity.
If a man wants a tool that checks all the boxes I dont rage at him. Pay for it and be happy. I don't own any Snap On or Mac tools. My hodge podge of Very good ol USA tools checks the boxes for me. That's all that matters. That and knowing that forging and metallurgy and the other arts, sciences and aesthetics that go into making a tool are very old and they are not magic.

 

[Fusion13]

I've been seeing all the drama lately especially over the wrenches. I think people are slowly just getting fed up of snap on relying on their name to sell tools. IMO the quality has gone down hill and the prices are going up and snap on is pricing themselves out of the every day techs pocket. Other companies aka harbor freight and the like are making tools that are almost as good for 10 cents on the dollar...

 

[teagueo]

Is this all about the "nylon nut test" with Snap-On vs Icon?

 

[CGarage]

Royal Auto Service in Georgia

 

[AEAdam]

I've been seeing all the drama lately especially over the wrenches. I think people are slowly just getting fed up of snap on relying on their name to sell tools. IMO the quality has gone down hill and the prices are going up and snap on is pricing themselves out of the every day techs pocket. Other companies aka harbor freight and the like are making tools that are almost as good for 10 cents on the dollar...

Are you basing this on anything factual? Snap On tool sales remain strong. Company stock is strong. I’ve seen no evidence of quality fade. I think you are maybe referring to the buzz you are hearing, which is nothing more than rumors.

Snap On is a funny company. When the US economy suffers a down turn, people hold on to the cars they’ve got and have them fixed, which stimulates car repair businesses. When the economy is strong, techs upgrade, big businesses expand operations.

In USG contracting, when we are awarded new or more business, we buy tools. 5 new loaded orange epiqs just showed up at work. I shudder to think what they cost. We probably have a few hundred of them now. They have the electronic tool control. I’ve never seen orange at work before. Really striking boxes.

 

[AEAdam]

Royal Auto Service in Georgia

I really don’t understand this. Neither this tech nor the Snap On driver in the original video understand how wrenches work or what this test was intended to show.

Root problem: @Ultradog MN above is just dead wrong. Tools are really complicated. Steel production is complicated and steel quality varies greatly around the world. Wars have been fought over steel.

I guess it’s the old adage, never let the truth stand in the way of a good story.

FWIW: here’s how the test works. The nylon nut test compares the amount of surface contact (area) between 2 wrenches. Tighter fitting wrenches, or wider wrenches will win. A plastic wrench that perfectly fit the nylon hex would win.

Snap On must have devised this test to demonstrate the sloppy tolerances of competitor wrenches. The competitors are no longer sloppy. Some never were (Stahlwile, etc) FD+ will always be at a disadvantage in these tests because it concentrates load at a small area. Not sure if the SO wrench was FD+ or not.

It’s not the driver, or mechanics job to understand these Snap On invented marketing parlor tricks. It’s Snap Ons engineering department. They should be explaining this and showing their own product testing.

 

[Ultradog MN]

Root problem: @Ultradog MN above is just dead wrong. Tools are really complicated. Steel production is complicated and steel quality varies greatly around the world. Wars have been fought over steel.

Do you mind elaborating a bit?
Are you saying engineers and scientists are unable to analyze the ingredients in steel? If so, read about the German company Krupp. How they made the best battleship armor for a century. But by WWII other countries - Japan, US, Britian, France, etc discovered their own ingredients and manufacturing techniques that not only equaled it but significantly improved on it?
Are you saying that Swedish steel - known for centuries as the very best stuff hasn't been replaced by technological advances so that the iron from from Australia, Brazil, China, Ukraine, Russia, India and
Canada - the 7 countries with the largest iron ore reserves - can't be all be equally used.
Are you saying that only Snap On has that "secret formula" that is best for sockets and no one else knows it, can discover it or improve on it? Are you saying a thing so simple as a combination wrench can't be reverse engineered and copied - even improved upon?
Are you saying that the Big 3 US auto makers are still the very best and Toyota BMW or Leyland can't ever catch up?
Are you suggesting the Apollo trip to the moon was the zenith of engineering and technology that has never been equalled or improved on?
I have no beef with Snap On. I have no beef with Snap On lovers. If you think they are the best, buy them. I'll be happy for you.
But please, please elaborate - with actual engineering and scientific facts, how Snap On can make tools no one else can.
And please don't tell me more opinions or that they are made with fairy dust and magic.

 

[Mb4]

Do you mind elaborating a bit?
Are you saying engineers and scientists are unable to analyze the ingredients in steel? If so, read about the German company Krupp. How they made the best battleship armor for a century. But by WWII other countries - Japan, US, Britian, France, etc discovered their own ingredients and manufacturing techniques that not only equaled it but significantly improved on it?
Are you saying that Swedish steel - known for centuries as the very best stuff hasn't been replaced by technological advances so that the iron from from Australia, Brazil, China, Ukraine, Russia, India and
Canada - the 7 countries with the largest iron ore reserves - can't be all be equally used.
Are you saying that only Snap On has that "secret formula" that is best for sockets and no one else knows it, can discover it or improve on it? Are you saying a thing so simple as a combination wrench can't be reverse engineered and copied - even improved upon?
Are you saying that the Big 3 US auto makers are still the very best and Toyota BMW or Leyland can't ever catch up?
Are you suggesting the Apollo trip to the moon was the zenith of engineering and technology that has never been equalled or improved on?
I have no beef with Snap On. I have no beef with Snap On lovers. If you think they are the best, buy them. I'll be happy for you.
But please, please elaborate - with actual engineering and scientific facts, how Snap On can make tools no one else can.
And please don't tell me more opinions or that they are made with fairy dust and magic.

Snap-On makes better tools than Hazard Fraught, period. As you said above, it isn’t rocket science. The use better steel, better heat treatment, better finish, etc. all of that adds up to a better tool. If Harbor Freight offer tools that were made to the same standard, then they would be just as good. But all of that extra work – better heat, treatment, better, metallurgy, better finishing – comes at a cost. And that cost is not pennies on the dollar. Even for something produced in China. if you’re not: in a commercial setting, or using the tool repeatedly day in and day out, or you’re not using the tool in a critical application, nobody is saying you need to buy a Snap-On wrench. But there is a reason many do. There is a reason the stock is trading at $285 today (up $160 over the past decade). It has nothing to do with gimmicky YouTube comparisons or retired guys working on old cars. They make a better tool, at a premium that people are willing to pay.

 

[CHI_Tool&Die]

There is a commenter on another forum I frequent that always posts about how they only use S-O tools because they “want the best or will go without.” That person seems to be a hobbyist, not a mechanic by trade. They go into rants if someone mentions that there are better options for some tools or, even worse, S-O doesn’t make all the tools they sell. That kind of attitude makes the person unlikeable and emphasizes the fanboy stereotype.

People not in the trades or are not more involved in the semi-pro DIY scenes tend to forget that quantity beats quality when you are starting out. When it’s your job, you absolutely need lots of stuff right away for as little as possible. That’s why so many newbies start with Craftsman, Pittsburgh, Husky, Ryobi, etc. I did it, every other machinist at the shop did it. Most serious people don’t just drop $10k+ on tools right out of the gate, though there are always exceptions. You got an entire career ahead of you to upgrade and splurge on exotic stuff and usually people understand that. It’s why I dislike so many social media people, they put it in everyone’s head that somehow it’s normal to have these massive tool hauls and spend thousands plus on high quality tools. It’s just not how things are done.

As to another observation, I have noticed that all of the field techs servicing our machines, the millwrights setting up the shop, and the maintenance mechanics are using more and more Pittsburgh tools. HF just seems to be having a good run for whatever reason. I don’t get it, but no one is forcing me to use their tools so I don’t judge. Same with Milwaukee. Service techs basically walk into the shop looking like a Milwaukee billboard.

 

[Boogerman]

Snap-On makes better tools than Hazard Fraught, period. As you said above, it isn’t rocket science. The use better steel, better heat treatment, better finish, etc. all of that adds up to a better tool. If Harbor Freight offer tools that were made to the same standard, then they would be just as good. But all of that extra work – better heat, treatment, better, metallurgy, better finishing – comes at a cost. And that cost is not pennies on the dollar. Even for something produced in China. if you’re not: in a commercial setting, or using the tool repeatedly day in and day out, or you’re not using the tool in a critical application, nobody is saying you need to buy a Snap-On wrench. But there is a reason many do. There is a reason the stock is trading at $285 today (up $160 over the past decade). It has nothing to do with gimmicky YouTube comparisons or retired guys working on old cars. They make a better tool, at a premium that people are willing to pay.

It really is that simple. Harbor freight makes discount tools and distributes them in a low cost retail setting, because that's their business model, and there's plenty of people to buy, thus a lucrative business. Snap-on makes premium tools, and distributes them to direct users in a model that works for their industry, and their sales record proves it's a successful business model.

No matter how much the fans would like to say the tools are the same they are not. However, there is a tremendous difference in price between the two levels.

I don't think anybody would say that HF tools don't beat Snap-on in affordability. But, I can't see anyone rational claiming that they beat them in quality, innovation, and durability. Yet, the click for ratings business stirs up the fans claiming exactly that. Are they "good enough"? For many, yes. Are they better or as good? Absolutely not. But, they may be a better deal for those that value low cost over premium quality or performance.

There's room in the market for both business models, as evidenced by their success.

The clickbait nylon icon vs snap on test is a clever exploitation of a test that was just as invalid for Snap-on when they came up with it as it is for Icon. Both just show that they're holding the low side of dimensions in the wrench openings. You can carry this to the absurd level, and make the opening too small to fit bolts, just so it will not slip on the nylon hex. Clever marketing trick by Snap-on that is now being used against them.

If you use the search function, a few years ago a bunch of guys on here checked the dimensions on a bunch of different brands of wrenches using calipers. That unscientific sampling showed that better quality wrenches in general were slightly tighter and more uniform in dimension than cheap ones. Exactly the result you'd expect from the cost of the wrenches, and somewhat related to the anecdotal evidence we have of their real world performance. It's as simple as higher cost can afford better tolerances and quality control.

 

[dchawk81]

Snap-On makes better tools than Hazard Fraught, period. As you said above, it isn’t rocket science. The use better steel, better heat treatment, better finish, etc. all of that adds up to a better tool. If Harbor Freight offer tools that were made to the same standard, then they would be just as good. But all of that extra work – better heat, treatment, better, metallurgy, better finishing – comes at a cost. And that cost is not pennies on the dollar. Even for something produced in China. if you’re not: in a commercial setting, or using the tool repeatedly day in and day out, or you’re not using the tool in a critical application, nobody is saying you need to buy a Snap-On wrench. But there is a reason many do. There is a reason the stock is trading at $285 today (up $160 over the past decade). It has nothing to do with gimmicky YouTube comparisons or retired guys working on old cars. They make a better tool, at a premium that people are willing to pay.

They're better but it's not like the manufacturing cost is a linear correlation to the retail price. You pay a lot more to get a little more.

A lot of stocks are up over the last decade not just SOs.

 

[Mb4]

They're better but it's not like the manufacturing cost is a linear correlation to the retail price. You pay a lot more to get a little more.

A lot of stocks are up over the last decade not just SOs.

Yeah but the point is they wouldn’t be up by almost double if they made the same tools that were available for pennies on the dollar. You’re not getting a little more tool, you’re getting a lot more durability, etc. Not everybody (especially DIYers) need that but it’s absurd to claim it isn’t there.

There’s a reason you don’t see entire construction outfits running 100% Hercules tools. At that level it’s a money loser.

 

[dchawk81]

Yeah but the point is they wouldn’t be up by almost double if they made the same tools that were available for pennies on the dollar. You’re not getting a little more tool, you’re getting a lot more durability, etc. Not everybody (especially DIYers) need that but it’s absurd to claim it isn’t there.

There’s a reason you don’t see entire construction outfits running 100% Hercules tools. At that level it’s a money loser.

Yeah they run DeWalt. Haven't really ever seen Snap-on at a construction site.