why don't Harbor Freight tools work with Milwaukee batteries?

[2ndGearRubber]

IMO OBDII is an example of standardization gone wrong.

In the US anyways, the gov told the OEs what they had to make available, the protocols they could use, and the connector required. While the connector idea was good, "global" or "generic" OBDII isn't a ton of help fixing cars compared to the OE side. Yes, it's convenient to change ALPHAn or lambda% into the normal +/- fuel trims we're used to seeing, and limiting how much false/inferred data we get. Yes, mode $6 is invaluable for catching partial or 1 trip failures. But TONS of stuff you 100% need to diagnose even a check engine light is not available via OBDII. That doesn't even get into bidirectional control not being available in global. How can one diagnose a hybrid system or cam phaser performance issue, when that data isn't even in global OBDII?


IMO the people who wrote OBDII didn't comprehend how far ahead of the game the OEs where, and have constantly tried to play catch up. The idea of limiting proprietary software and interfaces failed. Yes, codes are standardized, some anyways. The OE side will paint a much better picture of the fault, especially if the vehicle is new enough to have post-code-number IDs, suffixes that additional details about the fault. I suppose it could be worse, $1500 easily gets you into the game, less programming capability. Usually a single guy running two tools (sub 4k invested) can fix most things with an information source available.


--------------------------------------------------------------

IMO the market is under-served for adapters which convert the most popular platforms. To be fair, if one buys into yellow or red, IMO you shouldn't really have an issue getting what you need.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

OBDII isnt a good example. Only basic repair information is universal that relates to the vehicles emissions systems. Most of the data vehicles log is proprietary and requires authorization from the scanner to access and its getting more restrictive every year.

It would be like if there was a universal battery but it only let the tool achieve 50% of its functional power where if you buy the branded battery you get access to full power. You still have to pay to play.

Why would anyone buy a tool that's down 50% on power? Unless the tool is wildly overpowered for your application, wouldn't it be rendered useless by that system?

IDK, I chose M12, and have been happy. I do understand the higher voltage output stuff has higher battery costs. But really, with the convenience, ease, and interchangeability - is having to buy batteries all that bad? Unless you make a living using the tools, isn't buying a 2 battery starter kit, and another battery, more than enough? So long as you maintain them on the charger when swapping them out anyways.

 

[Skin]

Why would anyone buy a tool that's down 50% on power? Unless the tool is wildly overpowered for your application, wouldn't it be rendered useless by that system?

Besides the point. The correlation is that generic OBDII scanners access hardly any of the actual diagnostic systems of a modern vehicle so saying OBDII is a good example of standardized access is rather silly. The only thing standardized is the port and most basic emission data. You could never successfully operate a repair shop with just basic OBDII data unless you wanted to turn away tons of work. You need to buy scan tools that cost thousands. Even some dealer approved depending on what you were doing. As such a universal battery operating under a similar design philosophy would give you a crippled tool.

 

[richfinn]

LoL - I dunno - Skoda and SEAT were acquisitions I think. At one point, GM had stuff all over the place. That's just smart business, but it's all to the benefit of one company, though it helps keep prices lower, service easier, etc. for the consumers too...



We're good - sorry for being chippy.

That's OK, I realise my version of written English is very slightly "different" and can be perceived as rudeness (American wife points it out regularly), Yorkshire people are known for being particularly "blunt", it's not intentional

I worked for a GM dealer, but it's gone altogether now in Europe sadly

Vauxhall/Opel (GM) are now part of Peugeot/Citroën (PSA)

Twenty years ago Vauxhall were fighting it out with Ford for the UKs best seller spots

 

[richfinn]

OK bad example, I picked OBDII because of the shape of the plug being a global standard, I wasn't rating the USAs smog control regulations

It was interesting that Skin suggested limit the power to 50% if using non standard batteries, maybe that would be excessive, but they could make non standard batteries charge a lot slower, I think they would definitely work some dirty tricks to get you to buy into their batteries

 

[1982fxr]

For the guys trying to make the argument for one platform batteries, first it would lower profits so it ain't gonna happen.

If you must continue this fantasy though, imagine a world where the power tool batteries ran a **** ton of other stuff and then the tool companies got on board to cash in.

Household stuff, drones, computers, phone charging stations, medical devices, a goddamn fish finder on the boat etc etc.

 

[neophyte]

As far as “standardized” tool battery packs go, some manufacturers are sort of doing that.
Basically, in Europe, the Metabo battery pack system is being used by a bunch of “specialty” tool manufacturers.
Most of these manufacturers don’t manufacture their own motors, or have a very limited number of tool models that were/are cordless, so using the battery packs from a major tool manufacturer like Metabo just made sense.
In the past, these manufacturers would likely have just bought motors and batteries from Metabo, and slapped their own labels on the batteries and chargers.
Somebody just decided to avoid the “bull@$&t” and just use Metabo batteries and be open about it, since this tool companies using someone else's battery packs for a few cordless tools isn’t a new thing.

The Metabo system is called the “Cordless Alliance System (CAS)”, and so far is being used by or planned to be used by Eisenblatter, Eibenstock, Haaga, Starmix, Collomix, Steinel, Mafell, and Rothenberger.

In the past, Milwaukee and Milwaukee’s sister brand AEG, has supplied cordless motors to other European tool manufacturers.
This included Atlas Copco(who owned Milwaukee/AEG), as well as Draco, Trumpf, Mafell, and likely some other brands.
Milwaukee/AEG batteries also used to be used by Rothenberger.
Mafell also used Bosch batteries for other tool models, as well as Milwaukee/AEG batteries in yet others, so there was a weird mix of battery platforms all used by Mafell, whose tools are fairly expensive specialty carpentry tools.

Metabo in the past supplied motors and batteries to Lamello for one tool model.

Bosch has also done the same.


I suspect the reason for the battery platform system in Europe, was just a lot of smaller tool manufacturers getting sick of having to sort battery platforms from different manufacturers based on availability, and then hoping the battery manufacturer didn’t change the battery platform or decide to stop supplying batteries, and it makes things easier for industrial tool users, who don’t want to have to use half a dozen different battery platforms.


As for why other tool manufacturers aren’t doing the same, It might have to do with the design of the electronics and motors in the tools, and potential issues with battery compatibility and making batteries optimal to those electronics.
It used to be that most cordless tool manufacturers used similar motors, all manufactured in China by Johnson. ( a woodworking magazine did teardowns of a bunch of drills maybe 15 years ago, and every drill tested used Johnson built motors, except the Dewalt and Makita from what I recall). These motors might vary in voltage and size/power, but were otherwise basic brushed DC motors, so battery compatibility between brands, could likely be down with relative ease.
(Other tool models other than drills might not have used the same Johnson motors. Milwaukee cordless Sawzalls, Plumbing drills, and circular saws appeared to have motors actually made by Milwaukee, but for the 18v power)
Nowadays though, tool manufacturers have focused a huge amount of research on optimizing cordless tools and the motors and battery systems those tools use, and the differences might cause issues.
Other than just “brushless” designs, you have companies like Milwaukee, which I read might have been using a four pole motor, maybe based on the “Two phase” motor designs Tesla originally designed.
Fein I think was using a three phase motor, which is a totally enclosed fin cooled cast aluminum module that looks like a mini induction motor.
Dewalt was their dual voltage cordless tool battery system.
Etc.

 

[neophyte]

For the guys trying to make the argument for one platform batteries, first it would lower profits so it ain't gonna happen.

If you must continue this fantasy though, imagine a world where the power tool batteries ran a **** ton of other stuff and then the tool companies got on board to cash in.

Household stuff, drones, computers, phone charging stations, medical devices, a goddamn fish finder on the boat etc etc.

It would be nice if Bosch or Panasonic or Dewalt/Black&Decker would make some cordless kitchen appliances, like a cordless hand held mixer, or stick blender, or whatever, using their small lower voltage battery systems.

 

[richfinn]

I wonder if we will ever see power tools without detachable batteries that charge wirelessly whilst your working??

Would they innovate to that extent and kill the cash cow of selling detachable batteries??

 

[duneslider]

There is a whole slew of cordless tools on amazon that look like and use Makita batteries and sell for half the price of the real makita brand. I haven't purchased one to try and probably won't but I also suspect they exist for other brands (haven't looked cause I just have makita batteries).

Whether these chinese knock offs are legal, or infringing on patents, who knows but people are certainly making tools that use other peoples batteries and don't need adapters.

I do have an led work light that I bought on amazon that will allow you to use one of a variety of brands of batteries to power it, seems like a cool concept.

 

[M635_Guy]

I wonder if we will ever see power tools without detachable batteries that charge wirelessly whilst your working??

Would they innovate to that extent and kill the cash cow of selling detachable batteries??

There's a lot of efficiency loss in wireless charging (at least today) and it would take a while to charge the relatively-large batteries in our tools.

I'm sure 20+ years from now they'll have much better capabilities.

There are also standards that would need to be set, too...

 

[richfinn]

There's a lot of efficiency loss in wireless charging (at least today) and it would take a while to charge the relatively-large batteries in our tools.

I'm sure 20+ years from now they'll have much better capabilities.

There are also standards that would need to be set, too...

I'll be retired or dead unfortunately, I wonder if anyone has patented that type of tool technology yet??

EDIT: it looks like we missed the boat guys

https://www.bosch-professional.com/gb/en/wireless-charging-2499994-ocs-c/

The logical next step in my eyes would be to incorporate the battery into the tool and sell that system instead every 3-5 years

 

[M635_Guy]

I'll be retired or dead unfortunately, I wonder if anyone has patented that type of tool technology yet??

It seems like Tesla had already spec'd out (or announced?) a charger you pull your car over in your garage to wirelessly charge.

I'm sure the invention/IP is out there, but it's waiting for demand (at least in terms of cars).

Honestly, I'm not sure wireless charging for tools is compelling.

 

[richfinn]

It seems like Tesla had already spec'd out (or announced?) a charger you pull your car over in your garage to wirelessly charge.

I'm sure the invention/IP is out there, but it's waiting for demand (at least in terms of cars).

Honestly, I'm not sure wireless charging for tools is compelling.

I linked it in the previous post, Bosch are already selling wireless chargers and batteries for cordless tools

I've already done a bit of training on EVs with wireless charging

 

[Blue98GT]

Standardization is closer than the consumers know. Most batteries these days use the same cells (different grades). Milwaukee owns a patent on 18v lithium and other manufacturers pay a royalty for it. The rest is an injection molded case and some chips.

But no, tool companies aren't going standardize batteries and cut their own throats in the process. And if they did, you'd just wind up with tiered levels of performance like socket sets.

3rd party companies are coming in to fill that void with clunky adapters which might be ok for the home user but you'll rarely see them in industry work because what's a $100 battery on a million dollar job?

 

[M635_Guy]

I linked it in the previous post, Bosch are already selling wireless chargers and batteries for cordless tools

I saw it. I'm not sure what problem that solves - you still have a holster/etc. Alignment is pretty critical to performance of wireless charging, so I get why they have it, but it appears to be slow (95 min to charge a 4Ah battery). Other than avoiding the the physical wear of plugging/unplugging with the charger and I guess less likely to have issues with contacts getting dirty/corroded, I'm not sure what problem it solves. As it sits, there isn't any lure/benefit to that solution for me.

 

[richfinn]

I saw it. I'm not sure what problem that solves - you still have a holster/etc. Alignment is pretty critical to performance of wireless charging, so I get why they have it, but it appears to be slow (95 min to charge a 4Ah battery). Other than avoiding the the physical wear of plugging/unplugging with the charger and I guess less likely to have issues with contacts getting dirty/corroded, I'm not sure what problem it solves. As it sits, there isn't any lure/benefit to that solution for me.

I thought the same thing, maybe it's a stop gap until they launch a full wireless range with built in batteries??

 

[M635_Guy]

I thought the same thing, maybe it's a stop gap until they launch a full wireless range with built in batteries??

Outside of specialized use-cases, I strongly doubt there will be a move to built-in batteries. Despite the design-complexity swappable batteries create, there are also trade-offs for serviceability, warranty and profitability associated with sales of stand-alone batteries (and that's just off the top of my head). And, of course, and solution that requires the user to stop using the tool while charging is a non-starter IMHO.

High-range charging isn't likely any time soon, for a variety of reasons.

(I'm not in the tool industry, but my career has put me in an sorta-related area where wireless charging technology and its implications has been a discussion since before it finally appeared on phones, etc., so this general topic is something I'm non-casually familiar with - lol)

 

[XxToolAholicxX]

Modern battery packs are equipped with a chip and electronics to limit temperature during charging. Who is responsible when your generic ******* battery overheats and your shop burns down.

Also, in many instances the tool is sold at or near cost. The profit comes with the sale of batteries. Connecting technology/ design is likely patented or copyrighted to protect the original manufacturer.

It’s like the printers/copiers manufacturers sell almost at cost but make their money on the ink cartridges..

 

[nbpt100]

It’s like the printers/copiers manufacturers sell almost at cost but make their money on the ink cartridges..

Excellent example. Thank you!

When I worked in the Pad Printing industry it was similar. The company would often sell a machine or design custom tooling for a particular product at little to no profit then make it up on the consumable business over time. The Machine end of the business went under due to Asian completion but the consumable end of the business went on (in the USA) very successfully.

 

[engineer2]

Newer battery packs have a microprocessor that communicates with the microprocessor in the tool and the microprocessor in the battery charger. There is no way manufacturers would standardize on something since each would claim their design is better.

 

[richfinn]

Outside of specialized use-cases, I strongly doubt there will be a move to built-in batteries. Despite the design-complexity swappable batteries create, there are also trade-offs for serviceability, warranty and profitability associated with sales of stand-alone batteries (and that's just off the top of my head). And, of course, and solution that requires the user to stop using the tool while charging is a non-starter IMHO.

High-range charging isn't likely any time soon, for a variety of reasons.

(I'm not in the tool industry, but my career has put me in an sorta-related area where wireless charging technology and its implications has been a discussion since before it finally appeared on phones, etc., so this general topic is something I'm non-casually familiar with - lol)

I could see somebody like Snap-On selling a toolbox with a wireless charging station built in, that only charged Snap-On tools/diagnostic equipment one day in the future

They might be able to claw back some market share from Milwaukee??

We all know what guys are like with having the most "badass" toolbox in the shop

 

[M635_Guy]

I could see somebody like Snap-On selling a toolbox with a wireless charging station built in, that only charged Snap-On tools/diagnostic equipment one day in the future

They might be able to claw back some market share from Milwaukee?

I dunno - I can't really see it

 

[richfinn]

Check this out, somebody already beat me to it

https://patents.google.com/patent/US9893555B1/en

 

[KenC]

Well, I guess I understood the question differently. I'm thinking physical fit and interchange. With no consideration to quality or extra features.

With that in mind why can't there be competition. I haven't looked in depth, but all the patents I've seen are on battery chemistry/electrical characteristics, not shape, size or fitment. Lots of adapters to use batteries brand x on brand y. If there was fitment patent issues surely someone would be in court right now.

 

[Bert_]

I would assume the connector is patented. Possibly the reason why they come out with a new style every so often. A way to get a new patent when the old one runs out.

People thinking a standardized connector would kill any progress is funny. Why would competition prevent progress? You want more market share? Make a better product...

 

[richfinn]

Well, I guess I understood the question differently. I'm thinking physical fit and interchange. With no consideration to quality or extra features.

With that in mind why can't there be competition. I haven't looked in depth, but all the patents I've seen are on battery chemistry/electrical characteristics, not shape, size or fitment. Lots of adapters to use batteries brand x on brand y. If there was fitment patent issues surely someone would be in court right now.

I think this is exactly what will push cordless tools into integrated batteries (possibly with wireless charging) and a hefty price tag

Who exactly do you take to court for patent infringement???

Some faceless Chinese sweat shop pumping out adaptors/fake batteries?

Sooner or later the market will be flooded with fake batteries and cross platform adaptors then the big boys are left selling body only tools at cost!!!

They only have themselves to blame producing everything offshore (possibly)

Is this why they really change battery designs (or the shape of the casings) so regularly??

I know most guys on GJ would always buy the proper batteries, but we are a tiny percentage of worldwide sales I would imagine??

 

[Cruzan80]

At least with phones, the ide is you just get used to dropping it on there in between, and the battery keeps "sipping" instead of one longer charge. I also thought wireless phone charging was stupid, till I paid $20 for a pad to see what the big deal was. Now I love it.

I saw it. I'm not sure what problem that solves - you still have a holster/etc. Alignment is pretty critical to performance of wireless charging, so I get why they have it, but it appears to be slow (95 min to charge a 4Ah battery). Other than avoiding the the physical wear of plugging/unplugging with the charger and I guess less likely to have issues with contacts getting dirty/corroded, I'm not sure what problem it solves. As it sits, there isn't any lure/benefit to that solution for me.

Sent from my IN2015 using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[PugetDude]

My subject line may be confusing, but why doesn't Harbor Freight make their Hercules cordless tools compatible with Milwaukee M12 batteries? I think a price-conscious consumer like myself would consider Hercules if I could use it with my collection of Milwaukee tools, batteries, and chargers. Maybe even buy a Harbor Freight M12-style battery to try with my Milwaukee stuff.

Is it a legal restriction? I see people selling aftermarket M12 batteries, so probably not. Does it somehow make business sense for HF to have their own proprietary battery? I could see why a perceived higher quality manufacturer like Milwaukee wouldn't make their stuff compatible with a lower quality outfit like HF, but it seems like the reverse would let HF take some of Milwaukee's market.

I get why tool manufacturers want to lock you into their battery system, but there might be advantages to opening up for some companies.

I tried to buy 2x4's at NAPA and a gallon of milk at the lumberyard today, not sure why they didn't stock what I needed.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I could see somebody like Snap-On selling a toolbox with a wireless charging station built in, that only charged Snap-On tools/diagnostic equipment one day in the future

They might be able to claw back some market share from Milwaukee??

We all know what guys are like with having the most "badass" toolbox in the shop

Imo the best option for that would be a removable module. Even SO would change platforms at some point, and I would think they'd like to say it charges your phone too. Build it into to worktop maybe? Or clip it to the underside of the top.

 

[richfinn]

Imo the best option for that would be a removable module. Even SO would change platforms at some point, and I would think they'd like to say it charges your phone too. Build it into to worktop maybe? Or clip it to the underside of the top.

That would be a cool accessory, I think we will see something like it within 5 years!!!!!

 

[M635_Guy]

Well, I guess I understood the question differently. I'm thinking physical fit and interchange. With no consideration to quality or extra features.

With that in mind why can't there be competition. I haven't looked in depth, but all the patents I've seen are on battery chemistry/electrical characteristics, not shape, size or fitment. Lots of adapters to use batteries brand x on brand y. If there was fitment patent issues surely someone would be in court right now.

Generally-speaking, you can't really patent a shape, size or fitment - there has to be something novel about it that is supposed to meet a pretty high standard. Even being granted a patent isn't 100% surety that you own the intellectual property if someone can successfully argue the granted patent is too broad, etc. Patents that do cover something like a particular mechanism often have the opposite problem - they're too narrow to be protected very well.

Different manufacturers use different approaches to manage battery longevity, charging, tool and battery temperature and a bunch of other stuff. They have zero incentive to share in a variety of ways (being in command of the features and performance of their own product line, profit, etc.)

Having been sorta-close to the battery-fire thing in laptops that was going on...15? years ago (sheesh time flies), I got a deep appreciation for the differences in what OEM's demand from battery cell suppliers and what can wind up in the broader market for raw cells. Chargers and other elements can provide additional safety as well. (Overly-aggressive chargers were a factor in the fires way back, and I suspect more recent battery-cell issues in various products as well - those stupid two-wheel toys a few years ago, various phones, etc.).

Net: For stuff like this, I look for a company that isn't kidding about quality and pay their premium for good batteries. To me it's not worth the savings to buy a third party battery.

 

[Mallen]

Because they are really in the business of selling you a complete platform of power tools, batteries and chargers, once they have you hooked into that platform of tools it's a license to print money!!!!

This is where air tools always win for me, I can buy any brand I like at a reasonable price and screw in a fitting that works, and somebody else is paying to power it

I think cordless tools are great and have a couple of them for convenience, but a lot of it is pointless for auto mechanics in a workshop with good air

I see guys using $700 cordless impacts to remove lug nuts and driveshaft nuts a few feet from an airline and just don't get it???

I get using a cordless screwdriver to strip an interior without dragging a dirty airline inside a vehicle, that makes sense

Yup. They sell you a cheap tool and then get you to buy batteries. There are knockoff tools that even use the food batteries. I have no idea how bad or good they are though.

 

[Mallen]

Generally-speaking, you can't really patent a shape, size or fitment - there has to be something novel about it that is supposed to meet a pretty high standard. Even being granted a patent isn't 100% surety that you own the intellectual property if someone can successfully argue the granted patent is too broad, etc. Patents that do cover something like a particular mechanism often have the opposite problem - they're too narrow to be protected very well.

Different manufacturers use different approaches to manage battery longevity, charging, tool and battery temperature and a bunch of other stuff. They have zero incentive to share in a variety of ways (being in command of the features and performance of their own product line, profit, etc.)

Having been sorta-close to the battery-fire thing in laptops that was going on...15? years ago (sheesh time flies), I got a deep appreciation for the differences in what OEM's demand from battery cell suppliers and what can wind up in the broader market for raw cells. Chargers and other elements can provide additional safety as well. (Overly-aggressive chargers were a factor in the fires way back, and I suspect more recent battery-cell issues in various products as well - those stupid two-wheel toys a few years ago, various phones, etc.).

Net: For stuff like this, I look for a company that isn't kidding about quality and pay their premium for good batteries. To me it's not worth the savings to buy a third party battery.

You can easy patent a batter system. Just make a custom protocol and a controller in the battery the cuts the power off if it doesn't see a compatible tool. And you can patent new proto old till the cows come home.

 

[Mallen]

Yes, I've read about USA regulations, We call it EOBD in Europe

That same 16 pin socket is now global, principally (at least in Europe) so that emission related faults are readily accessible to be diagnosed and repaired in an attempt to protect the environment without having to rely on vehicle manufacturers

What would happen if they mandated a particular shaped battery pack for all cordless tools that had to meet some basic criteria but could also be developed by the tool manufacturers

Let's say for environmental reasons for the sake of discussion

I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just interested in how some products end up becoming standardised and if it really hinders profitability or creates competition??

If they ironed out rapid obsolescence could they start charging more for better quality tools made in the USA or Europe for example???

Don't worry I'm not a communist trying to destroy Milwaukee or anything

If they did that, DeWalt couldn't come up with their 36v system where an internal switch in the pack goes between two banks of 18v and I bank of 36v. Metabo couldn't make their packs where they made a backwards compatible plug, that hooks both 18v banks in series on old tools ,but allows access to each of the banks to connect them in series in other. Kobalt could not make their line of 24v tools. Those all have a purpose and you can't say any one is clearly superior to the others.

 

[M635_Guy]

You can easy patent a batter system. Just make a custom protocol and a controller in the battery the cuts the power off if it doesn't see a compatible tool. And you can patent new proto old till the cows come home.

You could make a custom controller, but it's very unlikely that would generate any patent/IP protection. I have a couple patents (though I'm definitely not a patent attorney) and it's not easy at all to get a patent. In this area, there are so many existing patents and similar, unprotected design/engineering that I doubt there's a meaningful patent that couldn't be worked around in some way. More than that, I think actively locking out third-party batteries would piss off consumers and might be against consumer protection laws in some countries (and would add fuel to the 'right to repair' flames in any case). The current, unprotected designs from the brands seem to still sell well and there aren't a lot of 3rd-party companies making a big business out of alternatives. Of course there are some, but they aren't worrying the guys that make the tools.

I think a lot of folks are conflating things that aren't really good comparisons (e.g. motorcycle batteries). Multiple brands share a common automotive/motorcycle battery form factor because it makes things easier for them in production/etc. and their customer. They aren't really in the battery business and each vehicle needs just one, so they don't see it as a profit stream to protect (even when they wear out).

Batteries are a tough business, especially for a small/aftermarket company. They can be dangerous. There are all kinds of legal risks to a battery product. Some countries have regulations and laws that make it tough for an aftermarket company to make much money. The supply chain is dominated by the big guys, and what is available downstream is often the stuff that sorted for lower quality in some way (I'm not suggesting they're bad, just didn't pass the variety of tests the big OEMs require from their suppliers for one reason or another). When supply is tight, the cell manufacturers are going to protect their biggest customers. When something goes wrong in a battery, the results can be...dramatic. Ganging them for a product isn't hard, but it isn't exactly a breeze to make one that will survive what happens to tools (not to mention the shipping gauntlet...) over a period of time. Etc. Etc.
As I said before, commonizing the battery for power tools is far more likely to make things worse for both the consumer (less advancement in design/features, less-certain quality, awkward/compromised design due to commonality requirements, etc.) and the companies (less freedom to innovate, hard to cooperate, reduced profits). It's a "be careful what you wish for" kind of thing to me - my guess is most people, especially around here, would hate the outcome.

 

[Mechanical Noise]

Okay, well.... it's obvious that we will never agree on this topic so instead of arguing back and forth for several pages, lets just agree to disagree.

I will leave it at this... I hope they never standardize cordless tool batteries because that would essentially end any future innovation. If we would've had standardized tool batteries back when cordless tools became popular, we'd all still be stuck with NiCad batteries today, and our modern-day cordless tools would still be gutless. If you remove the competition, there is no incentive to create a better product. God I hope those days never become reality. I like having a selection to choose from. You must not like having choices? It's better if someone makes a decision for you?

And just because 4 car manufacturers in Europe who use the same engine (according to you) are still selling cars does not mean the customer likes it..... they simply don't have a choice, but still need to buy a car. They'd probably like it even better if they had a choice.

What battery innovation has a tool maker EVER come up with? Looks to ,me like it's the cell manufacturers that do the innovating and then pack those innovations into standardized cells, and sell those standardized cells to the tool makers who then pack those cells into their proprietary cell holders.

Do the power tool makers compete on the alleged merits of their proprietary cell holders?

 

[Mallen]

You could make a custom controller, but it's very unlikely that would generate any patent/IP protection. I have a couple patents (though I'm definitely not a patent attorney) and it's not easy at all to get a patent. In this area, there are so many existing patents and similar, unprotected design/engineering that I doubt there's a meaningful patent that couldn't be worked around in some way. More than that, I think actively locking out third-party batteries would piss off consumers and might be against consumer protection laws in some countries (and would add fuel to the 'right to repair' flames in any case). The current, unprotected designs from the brands seem to still sell well and there aren't a lot of 3rd-party companies making a big business out of alternatives. Of course there are some, but they aren't worrying the guys that make the tools.

I think a lot of folks are conflating things that aren't really good comparisons (e.g. motorcycle batteries). Multiple brands share a common automotive/motorcycle battery form factor because it makes things easier for them in production/etc. and their customer. They aren't really in the battery business and each vehicle needs just one, so they don't see it as a profit stream to protect (even when they wear out).

Batteries are a tough business, especially for a small/aftermarket company. They can be dangerous. There are all kinds of legal risks to a battery product. Some countries have regulations and laws that make it tough for an aftermarket company to make much money. The supply chain is dominated by the big guys, and what is available downstream is often the stuff that sorted for lower quality in some way (I'm not suggesting they're bad, just didn't pass the variety of tests the big OEMs require from their suppliers for one reason or another). When supply is tight, the cell manufacturers are going to protect their biggest customers. When something goes wrong in a battery, the results can be...dramatic. Ganging them for a product isn't hard, but it isn't exactly a breeze to make one that will survive what happens to tools (not to mention the shipping gauntlet...) over a period of time. Etc. Etc.
As I said before, commonizing the battery for power tools is far more likely to make things worse for both the consumer (less advancement in design/features, less-certain quality, awkward/compromised design due to commonality requirements, etc.) and the companies (less freedom to innovate, hard to cooperate, reduced profits). It's a "be careful what you wish for" kind of thing to me - my guess is most people, especially around here, would hate the outcome.

You don't patent the controller. You patent your convoluted protocol

 

[Walkers]

I don’t generally buy cheap tools, but I wanted to play with a battery impact that was 1/2” drive and more powerful than my impact driver. I am invested in Mikita batteries, so those are the tools I buy. I ran across an import impact wrench that uses Mikita batteries for $39 on eBay. After it came I played with a new battery and a torque wrench and found it didn’t quite achieve the stated torque specs and the seller discounted it to half off. It is not as powerful as the popular 1/2” Milwaukee impact wrench, but for the price it works well, and it uses the batteries I have on hand. I have tried the import batteries for Mikita and have had less than stellar performance.

 

[M635_Guy]

You don't patent the controller. You patent your convoluted protocol

lol - Good luck with that. It still needs to be a novel concept to have a patent granted. There are plenty of junk patents, but they often fail during legal action. As I said, Milwaukee/Dewalt/etc. don't have that now and aren't suffering from the availability of 3rd-party batteries - what does a patented convoluted protocol buy them? For that matter, they could just embed what amounts to a keyed chip that locks out non-genuine batteries - no patent needed. But the torches and pitchforks would be out pretty quickly in the webverse.

This is an area I have a decade or so of very direct experience with (not the tool industry, but batteries in another one), so this isn't top-of-the-head thoughts for me.