Why entry level socket sets still include SAE?

[Ralf11]

Because if you're turning bolts on something other a late model vehicle, you might need them.
Besides, we're stupid. We cling to an outdated system of measurement that no longer applies to many things.

Best Answer

 

[Ralf11]

I quoted the wrong message, and can’t figure out how to delete this message.

Try switching to the SAE deletion button

 

[p00p]

I is slightly annoying to see the word "mechanic" on an automotive tool set that has SAE blended with Metric. The way to build these "mechanic sets" is to have one SAE & one metric. That's asking too much...

Mechanic = two separate sets needed.
Handyman = a roll of caustic cloth duct tape & what ever else fits within the cheaply produced plastic blown case.

 

[macgee]

The metric system has been officially the preferred system of the US since 1975 when the metric conversion act was passed and signed. Executive order 12770 requires the federal government to use metric units.

Thats actually incorrect, that was executive order (Metric Conversion Act) made in 1975 to wanting to use metric and was only voluntary and only a suggestion (good will), wasn't a mandate or executive order.
The current official measurement of the United States is still Imperial (SAE) as stated in United States customary units. In 1975 the act also created the United States Metric Board that was to help transition the United States to metric but Ronald Reagan abolished that board in 1982 and SAE (inch stuff) has stuck ever since.

Metric is better but SAE is very much alive and well for many more decades to come. The cost to transition industrial tooling in US factories to metric would be absolutely massive and crippling for a lot of industries here in the States so were stuck with it.

I don't think anyone disputes that metric is better but SAE is very much alive and well. Typically when I'm working on any SAE it's almost always better than the **** metric stuff coming from the east (Japan not included) and we don't get a a lot of Euro machinery here. So a lot of SAE machinery will last decades and could be justified the rebuildable cost, hence tools needed for it. This doesn't apply to everything.

What would you rather have, a china Jet drill press or a USA made Clausing or Powermatic drill press?

 

[Junkdrawer Dog]

Most people in the USA, not all, but most will end up using both SAE and metric over the course of a lifetime. Living in the USA makes it pretty much a certainty that you will deal with SAE fasteners at various times, regardless of what the rest of the world does. That's why many sets include both. What you work on and what you play with determines the ratio of SAE to metric needed. By configuring mechanics sets to include both, tool sellers can cover the field with one set. If a fifty - fifty ratio of SAE to metric usage is not your cup of tea there's plenty of other ways to assemble a tool set more to your liking. Because I started off wrenching on motorcycles, and have owned a lot of import cars, my tool set has evolved to be about 75% metric and 25% SAE. I got there by buying basic metric sets and filling in SAE sockets and wrenches as needed from duplicates from Pop's toolbox (with permission of course) and others from yard sales. Lots of ways to skin that cat.

 

[p00p]

i'm more likely to avoid buying a mixed set of socket standards & leave emptyhanded, but would more than happily buy a dedicated SAE or metric set of sockets.

What makes it worse with sets in general is it contain 97.1% of the tools you want, but leaves out that remaining 2.9%. If that brand even offers it separately, it'll be priced pretty high. example, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19 & a phillips screwdriver Why no 16mm? or even a 9mm? 21mm will do too. Nope, you get that pos phillips that turns screws into metal divot holes.

 

[nadogail]

The wrench to use is the one that fits what you are working on. If you want to work on everything that comes your way, you will need a lot of wrenches.

 

[Prospecter]

This is GJ. SAE + Metic = twice as many tools! Duh!

 

[Junkdrawer Dog]

Just wait...at some point you'll need a pretty good set of torx and e-torx if you want to work on newer cars and motorcycles!

 

[unslow1]

I was surprised yesterday when I changed the battery in my grandparents 1998 Ram. The holddown was 1/4 and the terminals were 7/16. It took a few tries because the first few trips with the sockets I was carrying all metric.

Myself I still use mostly SAE because I work on mostly classic cars.

 

[Farmall450]

You don't have to like it, but facts don't stop existing because you don't like them.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication#:~:text=In the 19th century, the,law was adopted in 1871).

Take a look at this chart. The last time a country switched over completely to the metric system was 2005, and it was a small island with nowhere near the infrastructure of the U.S. Prior to that was 1975. That's forty-six years ago. 70.5% of countries that are completely switched over to the metric system did so prior to 1950. There was just less infrastructure to switch over.

The reality is it's easy to sit back and say that we're stupid for not switching over to the metric system, but that's ignorant. There are lots of factors and nuances involved.

As I said earlier, the metric system is the more efficient system of paper (though not in every aspect), but it's a waste or resources to switch over. We can understand and use the imperial system just fine.

It's seemingly worked fine for several hundred years

 

[bwringer]

Just wait...at some point you'll need a pretty good set of torx and e-torx if you want to work on newer cars and motorcycles!

And you'll also need a full set of "security torx" bits because they pop up in the most inane places no one would ever bother to tamper with anyway...

 

[Aaron_W]

I think they just use it as an advertising point. Toss in the SAE set and bump the tools count, same deal as the worthless hex keys. Late models do still need 1/4, if you use aftermarket hose clamps.

At work - most of my SAE is for old american stuff, and to operate tools like pulley-pullers, thread chasers, where the tool itself is SAE. Pretty rarely used stuff.

At home, or outside of the vehicle trade, there's still lots of SAE floating around.

I don't know why anybody buys these big sets. There is a ton of redundancy and just plain unnecessary tools often of questionable quality.

The last time I got a "set" I just bought several small sets and individual tools that gave me exactly what I wanted. On a by the piece cost it was more expensive because I didn't get those cheap bulk out the numbers tools, but in actual price paid not that big of a difference and I got better quality stuff.

Yet they've managed to change over in nearly all other imperial unit countries.

Australia and New Zealand are about the only real success stories of a 1st world nation making a near total conversion in the late 20th Century (1970 and 1976 respectively).

India made the switch in 1956, but I don't think you can claim they have the infrastructure concerns of the US or UK.

Most of Europe changed by the late 19th Century or very early 20th Century.

The UK and Canada are claimed to be "metric" but like the USA in reality they still use a fair bit of Imperial in certain areas. The UK still posts speed limits and distances in miles so much for it just being the US and Liberia as the hold outs.

 

[CS454]

Obviously strides must be taken to move everything back to BSW.

 

[AA/FC]

....Am I missing something?

Yes.

Generally, people buy tools ahead of time so when the time comes and they need to fix something, they have the tools on-hand and ready to fix whatever is broken. That's why tool "kits" come with multiple sizes of sockets and wrenches. Fasteners are NOT one size fits all. You DO NOT know today what size fastener(s) you might encounter the next time you go to repair something..... This is the same reason why SAE tools come in tool kits. YOU MIGHT NEED THEM SOMEDAY, just like any other tool in your kit. If you live inside the USA, we are still officially on the SAE system... so to think you will never run across an SAE fastener is silly. Sure, your modern new cars are 99.99% metric but what about the bolts holding together your new bed frame? (for example) If you work with your hands and use tools long enough you WILL run into SAE fasteners and you will be glad you have those tools.

When I buy tools that do not come it "kits" I require myself to buy both the SAE and metric version of the same tool. I will not allow myself to own more metric than SAE tools. (or vise-versa) If I buy a SAE long pattern wrench set for example, I also buy that same wrench set in metric that same say. I never buy just one or the other, I buy both at the same time, always..... and I've never regretted it.

 

[AA/FC]

I heard a joke recently.... lets see if I can remember it correctly.


There are only two kinds of countries in this world, those who are metric, and those who have landed on the moon.


.

 

[cvairwerks]

DoD stays SAE and probably will for the foreseeable future. Changeover or new support costs would be massive. We had some support equipment that was designed in Australia for our program... The prototype and early test units had a mix of SAE and metric hardware. Units all got pulled for rebuild to all SAE, which was a contractual design requirement from the start. Cost us a crapload of time and expense when an engine got hung up and we had to wait until dayshift came in to have someone go buy a 27 mm and a 34 mm socket to loosen some adjustment hardware. Was glad to see that pos leave for modification.

 

[Robinson1]

Electrical, HVAC, plumbing is mostly in SAE.

If all of that was sold with metric hardware, it would still be forever until tradesmen would not need SAE.

Exactly

Electrical especially residential is still mostly flat head screws. Or those terrible combo heads that instantly strip when you use #2 phillips

If we are still using flat head screws I cant imagaine how long it would take to phase out SAE in the trades.

Everytime one of these threads pop up I cant help but wonder how anyone in the US can do anything without SAE tools.

 

[measuredtwice]

I heard a joke recently.... lets see if I can remember it correctly.


There are only two kinds of countries in this world, those who are metric, and those who have landed on the moon.


.

Whoever made up the joke must not know that Russia and China use the metric system and they've put people on the moon.

 

[cvairwerks]

Whoever made up the joke must not know that Russia and China use the metric system and they've put people on the moon.

Didn't know either one had actually put people on the moon....Know they've put probes there, but not actual humans.

 

[measuredtwice]

Didn't know either one had actually put people on the moon....Know they've put probes there, but not actual humans.

I heard a joke recently.... lets see if I can remember it correctly.


There are only two kinds of countries in this world, those who are metric, and those who have landed on the moon.


.

Sorry. I meant "landed" as said in the joke. I guess the joke was referencing manned landings.

 

[Blue98GT]

Well I've certainly learned a lot reading this thread. I guess the takeaway is that the only industry in the US that is primarily metric is (modern) automotive. Everything else is SAE.

For about $200 I put together a "side of the road" car/truck tool kit. 270 Piece Husky set, extension bar set, vise grip set, gloves, battery terminal cleaner, electrical tape, gloves, jumper cables, screwdriver set, needle nose pliers, cigarette lighter, zip ties. I may post a thread for this. I'm trying to build a kit anyone should have in their high mileage vehicle.

 

[Mechanical Noise]

Exactly

Electrical especially residential is still mostly flat head screws. Or those terrible combo heads that instantly strip when you use #2 phillips

If we are still using flat head screws I cant imagaine how long it would take to phase out SAE in the trades.

Everytime one of these threads pop up I cant help but wonder how anyone in the US can do anything without SAE tools.

Flat blade screwdrivers? Don't Euro metric flatblade screwdrivers work just fine here in the US?

 

[tdkkart]

I can't figure out why there still exists such strong phobias against one or the other? I've pretty much been working with both universally since I first started turning wrenches in the early 70s, and working in industrial maintenance I have to carry both all the time because in this job the machines come from all over the world.

 

[measuredtwice]

Flat blade screwdrivers? Don't Euro metric flatblade screwdrivers work just fine here in the US?

Not really. For example, most USA 1/4" slotted drivers are around 1mm thick whereas 6.5mm German slotted slotted drivers are 1.2mm thick. You'll sometimes need to use an undersized (like 5.5mm) German driver that doesn't fill the 1/4" slot.

Here's a comparison photo of PB Swiss, Klein and Wiha driving a common countersunk screw. The PB Swiss 6.5 mm fills the slot perfectly. The Klein 1/4" also is an excellent fit but the corners do stick out because of the shape of the countersunk screw. The Wiha 5.5 just wedges in at the very tip and doesn't fill the slot. The Wiha 6.5 (not shown) doesn't fit at all. All these screwdrivers are good screwdrivers but they don't all fit the same. Standard screw sizes have a range so having lots of choices is a good thing.

 

[Mechanical Noise]

Not really. For example, most USA 1/4" slotted drivers are around 1mm thick whereas 6.5mm German slotted slotted drivers are 1.2mm thick. You'll sometimes need to use an undersized (like 5.5mm) German driver that doesn't fill the 1/4" slot.

Looks like PB Swiss works just fine.

 

[measuredtwice]

Looks like PB Swiss works just fine.

Yes, the PB Swiss is 1mm. Iirc the PB Swiss insulated of the same size is 1.2 though.

German 6.5mm drivers are typically 1.2mm.

 

[PugetDude]

A true mechanic understands and can work with both metric and imperial systems, often on the same project.

Dealership parts-changers can only turn metric wrenches; fractions are too hard to comprehend.

 

[seagullplayer]

Because we still need both...

 

[reader2580]

I know I'm a terrible mechanic as I can't tell a metric fastener from an SAE fastener by sight. The only work I do on my vehicle is change the oil. Most of what I work on is SAE so I always start with SAE. I do a lot of work on a Toro Groundsmaster mower where everything is SAE except the engine.

 

[Mechanical Noise]

Yes, the PB Swiss is 1mm. Iirc the PB Swiss insulated of the same size is 1.2 though.

German 6.5mm drivers are typically 1.2mm.

And the screws could be made in China. One of the things I find odd in this US metric situation is how accommodating the Chinese and Taiwanese manufacturers have been to US standards.

For all I know, they're making Whitworth hardware there right now.

 

[Mechanical Noise]

I know I'm a terrible mechanic as I can't tell a metric fastener from an SAE fastener by sight. The only work I do on my vehicle is change the oil. Most of what I work on is SAE so I always start with SAE. I do a lot of work on a Toro Groundsmaster mower where everything is SAE except the engine.

Back in the transitional period, GM had their metric hardware dyed blue, if I recall. Not that that helped if the bolt head was rusty, but you got a metric confirmation when the bolt was fully unthreaded.

 

[whateg01]

I know I'm a terrible mechanic as I can't tell a metric fastener from an SAE fastener by sight. The only work I do on my vehicle is change the oil. Most of what I work on is SAE so I always start with SAE. I do a lot of work on a Toro Groundsmaster mower where everything is SAE except the engine.

Admittedly, I have trouble at a glance telling the difference between 7/16" and 11mm. Or 9/16" and 14mm.

Seriously though, sometimes one can tell by the markings on the head of the bolt. If it says 8.8, it's metric, for example.

 

[whateg01]

Flat blade screwdrivers? ...

Thank you! I don't understand why slotted screw heads are always called flat head screws! I use many Phillips flat head screws. And Allen flat head screws. And flat blade pan head or cheese head screws.

 

[Ralf11]

Thats actually incorrect, that was executive order (Metric Conversion Act) made in 1975 to wanting to use metric and was only voluntary and only a suggestion (good will), wasn't a mandate or executive order.
The current official measurement of the United States is still Imperial (SAE) as stated in United States customary units. In 1975 the act also created the United States Metric Board that was to help transition the United States to metric but Ronald Reagan abolished that board in 1982 and SAE (inch stuff) has stuck ever since.

Metric is better but SAE is very much alive and well for many more decades to come. The cost to transition industrial tooling in US factories to metric would be absolutely massive and crippling for a lot of industries here in the States so were stuck with it.

I don't think anyone disputes that metric is better but SAE is very much alive and well. Typically when I'm working on any SAE it's almost always better than the **** metric stuff coming from the east (Japan not included) and we don't get a a lot of Euro machinery here. So a lot of SAE machinery will last decades and could be justified the rebuildable cost, hence tools needed for it. This doesn't apply to everything.

What would you rather have, a china Jet drill press or a USA made Clausing or Powermatic drill press?

https://usma.org/laws-and-bills/executive-order-12770

the Secretary is authorized to make rules & regs - did they and what are they?

then there's Sec. 2 which requires "shall:

(a) use, to the extent economically feasible by September 30, 1992" unless they extend it, or exceptions apply

so, it's not clear what this does (by itself) except require reports

 

[itwnexus]

You need Metrinch which works on both SAE and metric. Metrinch was sold in infomercials a long time ago.

Is Metrinch still in business?

Metrinch Video:

 

[Lassen Forge]

If you're starting out you better be ready to work on anything they throw at you. If you're a new apprentice at a shop, guess who gets the scut work - everything from that trash filled Toyota to the clapped out Mercury Monarch... Show up wihtout tools to work on them, and your pay gets cut in half.

And here we go with out GJ Hatfield & McCoy BS thread drift (volume 162) - we went from a "why have SAE if I don't think it's useful" thread to a "Let's all slam / praise the metric system / imperial system" thread. Let me clue you in on a little secret... BOTH SYSTEMS WORK. PERIOD. If I'm in the states I'll buy an 8 foot 2x4, if I'm in Italy I'll buy a 3m 50x100. If my 250mm saw blade with a 13mm arbor goes bad, I'll replace it with a 10" with a 1/2" arbor. My go to fat max uses BOTH because I USE both.

If you can't use one or the other, it's not someone elses fault, because you either won't learn the other... OR... you've never been exposed to or needed the other. Once you have, you find out, gee, BOTH work.

 

[Captain Spaulding]

Whoever made up the joke must not know that Russia and China use the metric system and they've put people on the moon.

They’ve done a good job keeping it a secret. When exactly have they put people on the moon?

 

[MushCreek]

I was sorting hardware, and ran into a few 'Chinese SAE' nuts. 1/4-20 thread, but 10 mm hex.

 

[Renegade1LI]

As a contractor almost everything we do is SAE, I still have to keep metric sockets & wrenches as we do get some assemblies that are metric, but 95% SAE.