Why so many German tool manufacturers...

[redsky49]

particularly high quality screwdrivers? In the US, a much larger population than Deutschland, we seem to have just a couple of manufacturers, though items are relabeled for various vendors. Has the consolidation (for want of a better term) of the tool industry only occurred in the US?

What are the Germans, with equally high labor and operating costs, doing that US manufacturers can not do?

 

[Displaced Hokie]

I've always heard that the Germans would pay more for quality, and put more importance on such. They also make a lot of fine cultlery, and I think the quality thing factors in there as well. Over here, most folks just want any old tools or knives.

 

[Mickey O]

Why? They have a lot of Americans suckered into believing they make better screwdrivers, they're nice but the US ones are just as good and many of them better. I'd bet most of the Snap On ones are made by Americans of German decent, Wisconsin is full of Germans.

 

[speed bump]

Government subsidies and intervention are very popular ways of promoting manufacturing in Germany.

Also our market system is structured so that if you are in a low growth business such as tools you need some way to increase increase your market cap or else your stock rating will be degraded. Mergers and buying up the little guys does just that.

 

[A_Pmech]

It's an entirely different society with different core values. Their cultural values have been seared into their minds by two world wars, famine and hyperinflation.

Early on during a friend's time in Germany he passed lots of 12 to 14-year-old boys walking down the street with small hand boxes of various types. One afternoon he stopped one of the regulars he saw and asked him why he wasn't in school. "I'm on my way to work" the boy said. My friend asked why he was going to work instead of school. "Work is part of my schooling." he said. "I'm an apprentice machinist."

Germans admire quality and they have structured their economy to help protect their manufacturers. They have also structured their school system to refine and pass on the art of craftsmanship. On the other hand, our country allows it's manufacturers to do whatever they want, and allows anybody in the world to import whatever they want.

Here, an rock star is a hero. In Germany, a machinist is a hero. Germany has been destroyed and rebuilt more than once, entirely by machinists, weldors, mechanics, carpenters, steeplejacks, and every other trade. Their cultural values have been seared into their minds by two world wars, famine and hyperinflation.

BTW: In the old Germany if you wanted to be an engineer or an architect you first had to complete an apprenticeship as a machinist or carpenter, usually starting at age 12. EVERY high-school graduate in Germany was required to have some kind of trade school training. Unlike America, Germans graduate high-school with marketable skills.

 

[Jononon]

A strenuous tradition of legislating for quality, frequently as barely-disguised protectionism, from Reinheitsgebot to the TÜVs, doesn't hurt.

Why? They have a lot of Americans suckered into believing they make better screwdrivers, they're nice but the US ones are just as good and many of them better.

I appreciate that some see a Snap-on logo as the sine qua non of a quality tool, but surely you cannot honestly be asserting, based on having held and used all three, that a Snap-on Instinct screwdriver is finished to a standard that matches those of a Wiha 311 or a Wera 350, both of which are around half the price of the Snap-on item ?

 

[mik641]

its the fact that the germans can make a better quality product that everyone knows and likes.. and do it better than the yanks

 

[Mickey O]

I appreciate that some see a Snap-on logo as the sine qua non of a quality tool, but surely you cannot honestly be asserting, based on having held and used all three, that a Snap-on Instinct screwdriver is finished to a standard that matches those of a Wiha 311 or a Wera 350, both of which are around half the price of the Snap-on item ?

I'd say the Snap On's are probably better, and Wiha or Wera won't deliver them to you and repair or replace them at your convenience.

I don't mind German tools, they're not harmful to this country, and you can get some great deals on them.

Try selling your used Whia or Wera and then you'll see the difference.

 

[dps]

It is all among the benefits of being "blue" (if they were a State in the U.S.), not that they don't have some of the disadvantages, too.

 

[Jononon]

I'd say the Snap On's are probably better

I can't imagine how you could reach that opinion, based on using them side by side, but we shall have to agree to differ.

Wiha or Wera won't deliver them to you and repair or replace them at your convenience.

That's a good point. If you have a truck dealer then there are undoubted advantages to Snap-on, whether that justifies the vast cost is another matter.

Try selling your used Whia or Wera and then you'll see the difference.

With Wiha Bitflips selling on Ebay above list price, I don't think this argument has merit.

 

[joeswamp]

I'd say the Snap On's are probably better, and Wiha or Wera won't deliver them to you and repair or replace them at your convenience.

I don't mind German tools, they're not harmful to this country, and you can get some great deals on them.

Try selling your used Whia or Wera and then you'll see the difference.

I dunno, Snap-Ons are about the best tools manufactured in the US, but the finish and accuracy of some of those German tools are kind of amazing. The repair/replace at your convenience is a key price driver for SO, but probably the thing that drives the Snap-on price the most is the "buy on time" philosophy for customers with extremely bad credit.

It'd be interesting to see where Snap-on prices would end up if the warranty and buy-on-time features were removed.

 

[Mickey O]

I dunno, Snap-Ons are about the best tools manufactured in the US, but the finish and accuracy of some of those German tools are kind of amazing. The repair/replace at your convenience is a key price driver for SO, but probably the thing that drives the Snap-on price the most is the "buy on time" philosophy for customers with extremely bad credit.

It'd be interesting to see where Snap-on prices would end up if the warranty and buy-on-time features were removed.

The German stuff is nice, nothing spectacular in my book, maybe a little prettier but that's about it, and I'm not really big on pretty tools.

 

[Merkava_4]

The German stuff is nice, nothing spectacular in my book, maybe a little prettier but that's about it, and I'm not really big on pretty tools.

The German stuff is pretty? That's a new one on me because I always thought the Germans made their tools look utilitarian on purpose.

 

[Mickey O]

The German stuff is pretty? That's a new one on me because I always thought the Germans made their tools look utilitarian on purpose.

After reading the Knipex Wrenching Pliers mini review thread I'm interested in a set of those pliers.






.

 

[Monte]

Maybe they make what the (world wide) customer wants.....

 

[bushhawg73]

I like German made tools. The ones I have seen are very well made. Pretty tools is not a must but pliers like Knipex look good and are very well made. My knipex are some of the best pliers I have and my go to brand - even over Snap on pliers. On the other hand I would put a pair of Klien linesman pliers up against any of the same design made by anyone else. The Kleins are great - I have cut a lot of nails in half and used the cutting jaw to grip and pull out fence staples. Even after this abuse they will still cut through string.

 

[krusty the clown]

I'd bet most of the Snap On ones are made by Americans of German decent, Wisconsin is full of Germans.

the screwdrivers are made in tennesee........

 

[ATTappman]

What are the Germans, with equally high labor and operating costs, doing that US manufacturers can not do?

Here's just a guess: In Germany most businesses, even large ones, obtain financing primarily from banks. In the US, financing of anything but very small businesses is primarily obtained from the capital markets. This means that in the US, growing businesses are more likely to go public to obtain capital. Public companies are under pressure to grow and maintain high margins, and if they can't do that they're vulnerable to being bought by a larger competitor. In Germany, it's probably easier for a family-owned business with a long relationship with its banks to grow, and without public stockholders, there's not as much pressure to maintain high margins and stable earnings.

There's a lot to admire about German tools, for sure. I wish they were easier to get here in the US. I've been waiting for a month now on some Hazet wrenches from chadstoolbox.

 

[krusty the clown]

Here's just a guess: In Germany most businesses, even large ones, obtain financing primarily from banks. In the US, financing of anything but very small businesses is primarily obtained from the capital markets. This means that in the US, growing businesses are more likely to go public to obtain capital. Public companies are under pressure to grow and maintain high margins, and if they can't do that they're vulnerable to being bought by a larger competitor. In Germany, it's probably easier for a family-owned business with a long relationship with its banks to grow, and without public stockholders, there's not as much pressure to maintain high margins and stable earnings.

yeah, i think that has a lot to do with it but i think pride is high up on the list.

 

[jeepnut24]

its the fact that the germans can make a better quality product that everyone knows and likes.. and do it better than the yanks

Better cars too.... Not to mention a better car, built right here in the good old USA.

 

[FNFS2000]

I'll take made in Germany over made in USA on any product in the marketplace. Snap On has a strange following similar to Klein for electricians, but at least Klein is not drastically overpriced.

 

[kartracer55]

Because Germans value quality, and will buy quality products. I would imagine germans today are what American's used to be 50 years ago in terms of purchasing. Im not going to say what they make is superior across the board (because a lot of it is over complicated and unreliable) but they definitely don't set out with the mentality of making a quick buck and pushing **** onto their customers like a good number of US manufacturers do these days.

Do you know why Big Box stores sell so much junk? Because they know we are willing to buy it!

Also, one of the reasons China and Taiwan is kicking our butts with manufacturing is because they invest in their businesses. Watch dirty jobs, and look how antiquated some of the equipment widely used in this country is. While some businesses certainly do invest in new equipment, I feel like we are still behind the curve in many respects.

 

[wolpi]

We grow up with the education we have to value qualitiy! i think thats a main reason! if something is cheap and good we'll also buy it. but we leran in our education to focus on basic things...from where it comes.
and yes, you are right...i told today a person i bought from, if the price is ok, i'll prefer to pay 10 bucks more and have service! and if both benefit? why not? thats also a reason, here in germany we are often drilled to perfect things...even if there's no reason! from nothing won't raise nothing! if you want something you have to work more than others...we are sometimes drilled to perferctionism..but i only can explain it in german exactly. i often saw it on tv...in america it looks like (i'm not sure if it is) all the tests are multiple choice! here we don't have anything like that...we have our tests with our questions...but no answer given and if we don't find any solution we fail.

with the quick buck you are a little bit wrong,...that'll be more state of the art here, even if i don't prefer it!

the main reason why china is kicking "our" butts is because they have a huge population which want, love and are willing to work! they have nothing there...they also can copy things without any problems. but the main reason is: a lot of arms do a lot of work! and in this country everybody can be replaced by 1000 others! and there'll be a time where those countries will overtake usa, europe etc.

 

[quneur]

I was watching a world news report on German trade/service entrepreneurs. Evidently, alot of them fail due to the government requiring a certain amount of time in apprenticeship. Then as I recall, a journeyman is able to do freelancing but you need a master permit to actually start a business.

BTW, I have a Wera 335 standard screwdriver I 'inherited' from a non-paying roommate. The tip is bent and was looking to get a replacement. Any know what's their 'limited' lifetime warranty?

 

[Tool Pants]

I find the response from Wolpi interesting.

If you are faced with a question, you give an answer.

No multiple choice answers.

 

[Hawk321]

Germany has no values anymore, our labor rates are less than in usa ( I earned in usa 4 times more) and our education is a big joke.
Yes we build some good tools like hammers or pliers...we own the patends

But no one cares here in germany, bring your own tools in with a big box, everyone thinks you are crazy. Also our tool knowledge is not present...monte and me are more unique.
In germany you will never find seminars to improve your knowledge of your job, everything is teached theoretical without real pratical examples....btw. most seminars are so extreme expensive that most people can't effort them because we earn so less money, that most people must get social security payments to survive.

Our industry is existing because the goverment pays them billions of subventions...nothing works here, we don't have freedom, no pride...nothing. Our tv shows are manipulated by corrupt politicans and the labor rate is extreme high (more than USA). ~10 million people getting payments from social security to surive...~3 million people have a fulltime job but their labor rate is so small, that they get social security payments too....we don't have anti discriminations laws here...the goverment extord most people with stupid laws....and they are lying all the day for centurys.

It's not possible to start a own automotive garage without a master tech...which is so extreme expensive to get this grade...It's also not possible to do something without permisson of the public authorities.

When you are unemployment, you must ask somebody to leave the town (doesn't matter if your trip is only for some hours)...if you are longer than 12 month unemployed you must do forced labor for somebody without a normal sallary.
Germanys new enemy is now the unemployed man, in the 3rd Reich it was the jew...today we have unemployment people...nobody will die...but everything else is the same.....even the labor camps (smaller) are present today.

Can someone remember jerk_chicken??? Ask him what he thinks about germany!

There is a reason why so many people wnat to imigrate to usa.

Perfectionism in germany??? HA...not here...old fairytale.
So please, don't praise germany.

 

[Mickey O]

Germany has no values anymore, our labor rates are less than in usa ( I earned in usa 4 times more) and our education is a big joke.
Yes we build some good tools like hammers or pliers...we own the patends

But no one cares here in germany, bring your own tools in with a big box, everyone thinks you are crazy. Also our tool knowledge is not present...monte and me are more unique.
In germany you will never find seminars to improve your knowledge of your job, everything is teached theoretical without real pratical examples....btw. most seminars are so extreme expensive that most people can't effort them because we earn so less money, that most people must get social security payments to survive.

Our industry is existing because the goverment pays them billions of subventions...nothing works here, we don't have freedom, no pride...nothing. Our tv shows are manipulated by corrupt politicans and the labor rate is extreme high (more than USA). ~10 million people getting payments from social security to surive...~3 million people have a fulltime job but their labor rate is so small, that they get social security payments too....we don't have anti discriminations laws here...the goverment extord most people with stupid laws....and they are lying all the day for centurys.

It's not possible to start a own automotive garage without a master tech...which is so extreme expensive to get this grade...It's also not possible to do something without permisson of the public authorities.

When you are unemployment, you must ask somebody to leave the town (doesn't matter if your trip is only for some hours)...if you are longer than 12 month unemployed you must do forced labor for somebody without a normal sallary.
Germanys new enemy is now the unemployed man, in the 3rd Reich it was the jew...today we have unemployment people...nobody will die...but everything else is the same.....even the labor camps (smaller) are present today.

Can someone remember jerk_chicken??? Ask him what he thinks about germany!

There is a reason why so many people wnat to imigrate to usa.

Perfectionism in germany??? HA...not here...old fairytale.
So please, don't praise germany.

A small price to pay for some so-so screw drivers and nice pliers. My family is from Europe (several countries), most still there so I'm keenly aware of what's happened there. The US is headed right in your direction, we have a whole bunch of ungrateful and lazy people over here (not to mention millions of illegal aliens) lining up for Government freebies with some misguided notion the Europe is some great utopia. They'll get it when the Government takes half their salary (if they're lucky enough to have a job) and they have to wait 6 months plus to see a doctor and they've been stripped of their freedoms. We've already lost plenty but it looks as if people are starting to wake a see what's happening, hopefully the tides are turning. Me, I'll stick with quality US made products and the occasional European tool when they're on clearance.



.

 

[Mickey O]

I'll take made in Germany over made in USA on any product in the marketplace. Snap On has a strange following similar to Klein for electricians, but at least Klein is not drastically overpriced.

If you're not already living in Germany, I'd move there if I were you.

 

[Monte]

interesting how different the opinions are.

had to chime in:

Regarding the master degree: You can get a credit from the government ("Meister-Bafög") from which you only have to pay back 65% the rest of 35% is "sponsored" by the government. The other 65% you have to pay back within 10 years. So its not that bad - if you want to open your own business after your apprenticeship or later in your life you can just save the money. Sure it depends on your lifeplan if you save the money for your degree to once become self employed or get a higher payment from your employer or if you throw it out the window with expensive cars,women,houses and spend your money with paying back credits..... iirc my brother spent around 5000$ for his degree. During the education to become a master you learn everything from accounting, personnel management, laws etc. so the chances are good that your business will be successful. Thats the reason why the master degree was invented. It is based on a hundreds of years old tradition in Germany and also Austria from medieval times to nowadays. You still sometimes see especially carpenters who travel trough germany after the 3 years apprenticeship for several years in their black uniform with their black hat and black "bell-bottoms" trousers to work for several employers in different cities which was once the precondition to get the master degree hundred years ago.

Regarding the continuing education/on-the-job training my brothers employer (Fiat) send their employees to the necessary trainings at the Fiat/Lancia/Alfa Romeo HQ here in germany so they can learn about the new cars, engines etc. Also all special tools, software etc. are supplied by Fiat automatically because it`s a must have since Fiats own workshops are ISO 9001 quality certified which is also checked by the Fiat HQ inspectors.

 

[Hawk321]

@Monte

the master degree was invented from Hitler to discriminate jews, and it also depends on your personal live situation. You get no credit from our goverment for the master tech, only credit for the Bafoeg! which is also extrem low.

That your brother has a good employer is good for him...thousands mechanics don't. And I give a big **** on ISO 9001, I work with my tools because I want to controll it by myself that I get the newest stuff and most important COMPLETE!
ISO9001 works only on the paper, know a lot of shops where you don't get all tools you need....hell even not a work bench.
I'm done with this criminal country, done with mobbing and discrimination, done with zombie minded germans and I'm done with all that lies from our politicians.

Keep the eyes open and use your free indepentend mind, leaf the herd of this zombie nation.

I'm not alone...I was in the USA and everything that was/is a problem in germany is not a problem there.

I want tools, want a proper work, guns&rifles, proper sallary, freedom and everything else that I don't get here in germany...

Since I understand us english, I notice all the false translations on tv. The old medieval europe is an old king arthur legend...nothing more. Free minded europeans left their homes because they all were fed up and started a new succesfull country...called USA and his big hat (canada).
I don't want to live in a country, where everyone gets poor and gets forced to work for companys for so less money, that my privat insolvence appeared.

My eyes are open now, and I see all the mess here.

If you're not already living in Germany, I'd move there if I were you.

Okay, can we change our passports than???

 

[dede2897234]

Monte and Hawk321,

How well does universal healthcare work in Germany? If you are sick, what are the wait times to see a doctor or a specialist? Do the unemployed remain on universal healthcare? What percentage of your yearly salary does the German government take out to cover healthcare? Have you heard of anyone go bankrupt after undergoing a surgical procedure or transplant in Germany?


Thanks,

Dave

 

[sk farmer]

hhhmmmm!!!!! one of the more interesting threads in a while. keep feeding us info. we are on the verge of becoming so much more like europe all the time. try and keep politics neutral or i am sure this thread will get tossed.

 

[Jononon]

I'm not alone...I was in the USA and everything that was/is a problem in germany is not a problem there.

I don't want to live in a country, where everyone gets poor and gets forced to work for companys for so less money, that my privat insolvence appeared.

'Welfare to work', an American idea, and if you look at the rates of personal bankruptcy in the US and German, well let's just say you're in for a shock.

 

[wolpi]

Germany has no values anymore, our labor rates are less than in usa ( I earned in usa 4 times more) and our education is a big joke.
Yes we build some good tools like hammers or pliers...we own the patends

But no one cares here in germany, bring your own tools in with a big box, everyone thinks you are crazy. Also our tool knowledge is not present...monte and me are more unique.
In germany you will never find seminars to improve your knowledge of your job, everything is teached theoretical without real pratical examples....btw. most seminars are so extreme expensive that most people can't effort them because we earn so less money, that most people must get social security payments to survive.

Our industry is existing because the goverment pays them billions of subventions...nothing works here, we don't have freedom, no pride...nothing. Our tv shows are manipulated by corrupt politicans and the labor rate is extreme high (more than USA). ~10 million people getting payments from social security to surive...~3 million people have a fulltime job but their labor rate is so small, that they get social security payments too....we don't have anti discriminations laws here...the goverment extord most people with stupid laws....and they are lying all the day for centurys.

It's not possible to start a own automotive garage without a master tech...which is so extreme expensive to get this grade...It's also not possible to do something without permisson of the public authorities.

When you are unemployment, you must ask somebody to leave the town (doesn't matter if your trip is only for some hours)...if you are longer than 12 month unemployed you must do forced labor for somebody without a normal sallary.
Germanys new enemy is now the unemployed man, in the 3rd Reich it was the jew...today we have unemployment people...nobody will die...but everything else is the same.....even the labor camps (smaller) are present today.

Can someone remember jerk_chicken??? Ask him what he thinks about germany!

There is a reason why so many people wnat to imigrate to usa.

Perfectionism in germany??? HA...not here...old fairytale.
So please, don't praise germany.

don't forget to mention thats also depends where you live in germany. it starts with the schoolsystem where f.e. bavaria (zentralgestelltes abitur). and continues also on university, if i made a mistake in maths/physicstest it gave no points because your solution was wrong.
the unemployment is a problem here, BUT we don't have to forget how many people don't want to work. also because it makes to many people no sense to work more. and thats sometimes also a multicultural problem here...
you also can start a buisness without any master...you can't do all the work, thats correct! you are in germany that what stands on your paper! i live in lower bavaria where the clocks tick slowlier, in a small village, we have not really the problems compared to the big cities...

the next thing subventions...what else can the state do? why is a bmw cheaper sold in usa than here in germany where it is build?
when you mention we have no pride? it comes back, but it comes slowly! there are some words you are not allowed to say here in germany...because it's not political correct. or how often do you hear germans that they are proud to be a german? ww2 is 60 years gone but we still are often compared to those guys.
i don't know in which buisness you work, but i worked in the carbontech for a while and i also saw some carbonstuff from usa and there were big differences!
the tools you mentioned, what real work do you have do to on cars? a service? some lights? brakes? how often do you have to change engines? the time has changed...now you use a laptop for most of the cars, see whats wrong and change this part! most of the work can be done with 3/8 and a pair of screwdriver.

the problem why the quality you mentioned isn't as high as it could is also the time on the work! 20 years ago...how much did a mechanic earn in an hour? and how expensive is no a service on a car? 20 years ago the material was expensive, but the costs for a worker were cheap! now the material is cheap and the costs for a worker are expensive?
if our state doesn't make subventions, how long do you thing the automotive branche will stay in germany? oder the manufacturors? CZ, SK everything else is near! and if the productcosts are too expensive why should any manufacturer stay in germany? thats the market! if i can produce cheap, why should i do this in a country where i have no advantages? would you do this?

 

[Mickey O]

there are some words you are not allowed to say here in germany...because it's not political correct.

Small price to pay for nice pliers and "free" "health care".





.

 

[Hawk321]

i live in lower bavaria where the clocks tick slowlier, in a small village, we have not really the problems compared to the big cities...

Where ??? In a radius of 45km almost all companies are corrupt here, working hand in hand with our department of labor!

the next thing subventions...what else can the state do

Ok, first 6 month a employer gets 50% of the labor costs paid...than he kicks the new employer out for the next one with subventions!

what real work do you have do to on cars

Everything , the diag scanner is not the main tool today.I remove transmission, bearing, engines, brakes, turbo chargers... Everything is missing in the shops or locked in a safe...wiring diagrams, hub pullers, bearing pullers, timing belt tools, technical datas, hell the list is extreme long.
You say a 3/8 ratchet??? I know so much shops without a 3/8 ratchet!
Special tools are not present and that is a problem...I hate it to hear "not necessary"...but if you need them...and you don't have them...you get kicked! Sad but true...

the problem why the quality you mentioned isn't as high as it could is also the time on the work! 20 years ago...how much did a mechanic earn in an hour? and how expensive is no a service on a car? 20 years ago the material was expensive, but the costs for a worker were cheap! now the material is cheap and the costs for a worker are expensive?

All ********, employers pay only 6-11 Euros/h, but they could pay you 16 and more...but they don't want.

I'm in connection with some organization in germany (press, labors etc.) Germany is lead by some corrupt people, fooled the polution by years.The problems are all safe made...and to answer the question about the healt care

~200 Euro must I pay every month for health care...without any service and benefits. Now I'm insured in austria too...a difference like day and night.

When I talk with germans who work in other countrys...then it's always the same story I hear..."We left germany because this country will surrender and we do not have any future there"
To make it short, people don't want to hear all my storys because thats to much for them. It's better to live further in an imaginary world.

Post me a pm to talk about

 

[Jononon]

On second thoughts, why the f**k am I rising to flamebait?

 

[Amos Ives Root]

Why? They have a lot of Americans suckered into believing they make better screwdrivers, they're nice but the US ones are just as good and many of them better. I'd bet most of the Snap On ones are made by Americans of German decent, Wisconsin is full of Germans.

 

[FNFS2000]

If you're not already living in Germany, I'd move there if I were you.

I'm in the states, their government really *****, but ours is heading that direction with breakneck speed and will get much much worse. I'm all for USA made products, they just don't compare in quality. And its nearly impossible to find anything USA made anymore.

 

[american lockpicker]

I buy a lot of German made products now(can't get much USA made stuff anymore) and I love the quality.