Why the hate for Craftsman stuff?

[porphyre]

Found two cents in my couch cushions, so here they are...

Why all the hate for Craftsman? Two things:

1) Offshoring production
2) Their 36-tooth ratchet design *****

The first one is obvious and everyone here gets it and it's been beaten to death already.

The second one, however, is most frustrating to me personally. Their all-metal 36-tooth design was fine. Especially in a world where 45 teeth was "fine tooth". Now we've got 60-80-100 tooth ratchets. 36 really doesn't cut it.

36 teeth is generic. Craftsman is a name brand. Snap-on doesn't even sell a 36-tooth except for special applications (FOD). If I'm buying some $5 POS off the shelf.... Duralast, GooseNeck, Evercraft, Stanley... whatever name is stamped on the foreign tool, I'd expect 36 teeth.

Secondly, they've cheapened them up with all the plastic parts. That means that grumpy old men who buy Craftsman RP ratchets b/c that's what their daddies did... those guys are PISSED because they ****. The 36-tooth went from being 2nd tier behind the "fancy" 45-tooth to 3rd tier behind the 60 and 84. And the quality shows it. Those guys expected the new 36'ers to be as good as the old... and they're just not. Then they look at the 60 with it's weird non-standard handle and price-tag 2x the RP and think - Why should I have to pay all that for that funny lookin' ratchet when this style of ratchet has been good to me for 30 years?

Third, they stick that **** mechanism (and that one ONLY) into all their form factors. If you're a pro or pro-sumer (ie, advanced hobbyist) and want a non-standard ratchet, such as a flex-head or stubby, that same crappy 36-tooth head is what you get. A quick look at CM.com shows:
Standard length
Mid-Length
Midlength, round handle polished
Long Flex
Long, round hand polished
Stubby, flex, round handle polished
Flex offset handle round, polished
Long, flex, ergo handle

All have the craptacular 36-tooth head. Personally, I LOOOOVE the handle on the long flex. But I HAAAAATE the head. I'd pay $40 for a CMan 60-tooth head on that handle. Pay it without blinking.

CMan has other options in their 60 and 84 tooth heads. They used to have the 45 tooth round head. Building a 45 tooth pear head can't be that hard.

I think if they stuck a quality 45 or 60 tooth head onto all those available handles - instead of the 36 tooth head - a lot of the bitching would die down.

 

[kythri]

Secondly, they've cheapened them up with all the plastic parts.

Can you detail what "all the plastic parts" in a 36-tooth Craftsman Raised Panel ratchet are comprised of, outside the selector lever?

 

[billymade]

They should just eliminate the 36 tooth heads all together and make them 60 tooth or higher...

 

[thooks]

Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya;
Kum bay ya, the Lord, kum bay ya;
Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya,
O Lord, kum bay ya.

 

[pipsters]

The second one, however, is most frustrating to me personally. Their all-metal 36-tooth design was fine. Especially in a world where 45 teeth was "fine tooth". Now we've got 60-80-100 tooth ratchets. 36 really doesn't cut it.

The all metal 36 tooth raised panel was a $50 ratchet. These days it's under half that. So you aren't really comparing apples to apples. They cheapened it up but it also costs half of what it did (adjusting for inflation). A better comparison is the thin profiles (although I bought those for $18 a piece, and retail is around $30-$40 a piece) or the premiums, which are good.

In addition before I found this site the tooth count to me really didn't matter.

 

[AZ_Catskinner]

They should just eliminate the 36 tooth heads all together and make them 60 tooth or higher...

Dear God NOOOOOO!!!! Believe it or not, for a lot of non-automotive work fine tooth ratchets **** the big one. I keep a pair of ½" RP's in my gangbox for a reason - all the dust I work in will clog up a fine ratchet long before it does a coarse one.

 

[GoBlue]

I work strictly on vehicles and could care less about tooth count.

 

[porphyre]

Can you detail what "all the plastic parts" in a 36-tooth Craftsman Raised Panel ratchet are comprised of, outside the selector lever?

Quick release button.

The all metal 36 tooth raised panel was a $50 ratchet. These days it's under half that. So you aren't really comparing apples to apples. They cheapened it up but it also costs half of what it did (adjusting for inflation). A better comparison is the thin profiles (although I bought those for $18 a piece, and retail is around $30-$40 a piece) or the premiums, which are good.

In addition before I found this site the tooth count to me really didn't matter.

$50 ratchet??? Never.

In 1973, a 3/8" 36-tooth quick release, all metal, cost $5.95. See page 126.
http://www.roseantiquetools.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/197273craftsman15.5mb.pdf

Adjusted for inflation, that's $30. But that's 40 years ago. If I had access to a catalog shortly before they changed over to using plastic, I'll bet the inflation adjusted price is closer to $20. You know what the plain jane 3/8th sells for today? $15.99.

 

[Steevo]

I have plenty of Craftsman wrenches, screwdrivers and sockets, and seldom pas them up at garage sales. I use them constantly, and I love buying a used screwdriver, ratchet or socket for fifty cents or a buck, then exchanging it for a brand new item at Sears. I also have some Craftsman wrenches that I bought new in the 1970's, that can't be replaced, because they don't make the same style/quality any longer. The current trend toward Chinese products and eliminating the old wrench and ratchet styles is what will kill Craftsman long term.

 

[pipsters]

Quick release button.



$50 ratchet??? Never.

The 1/2" raised panel ratchet was introduced in 1966 and cost $6.99 which is just under $50 today.

 

[GoBlue]

I have plenty of Craftsman wrenches, screwdrivers and sockets, and seldom pas them up at garage sales. I use them constantly, and I love buying a used screwdriver, ratchet or socket for fifty cents or a buck, then exchanging it for a brand new item at Sears. I also have some Craftsman wrenches that I bought new in the 1970's, that can't be replaced, because they don't make the same style/quality any longer. The current trend toward Chinese products and eliminating the old wrench and ratchet styles is what will kill Craftsman long term.

This doesn't help keep the brand going either. I would honestly not feel bad if they eliminated the warranty for this reason or at least require a receipt. Maybe give the original purchaser the option to register online or something.

 

[porphyre]

The 1/2" raised panel ratchet was introduced in 1966 and cost $6.99 which is just under $50 today.

Yeah, that's the 1/2". I was talking 3/8". The 1/2" is not available in all the different form factors I listed. The '68 3/4" ratchet cost $13.99 which is around $86 in today's money. So what? You do realize they made all-metal raised panels for like 30 years, right? Did the ones made in 1985 cost $50/2011? Doubt it. I really don't see whatever point you're trying to make.

Are you trying to say that people were effectively paying more back then? Does that mean you think people who buy today's $15.99 plastic ratchet are just getting what they deserve for being cheap? I'll guaran-damn-tee you the 1966 Snap-on 36 tooth ratchet cost more than $50-2011 equiv dollars.

I'm completely bewildered as to why you're talking about equivalent dollars spent on a brand new design 45 years ago. It's totally irrelevant. If you're trying to make some cost based argument, the only sale price that matters is what they were charging for the final year all-metal ratchet. Because that's when the decision was made to put in the plastic.

But what I'm really interested in is why you're defending such a **** design. CMan needs to kill the 36-tooth head. It's ****.

 

[AZ_Catskinner]

I've got a 3/8 drive RP out in the garage somewhere that I picked up in the early-mid 90's that has a brass selector on it.

Again on the 36 tooth head, in heavy/industrial jobs, they flat-assed work, so why kill it? No, they aren't going to win any beauty contests, and there isn't too much of the "look at me!" factor involved. But they are a simple, reliable tool that will get the job done. If I had fine toothed ratchets at work (which I don't anymore), I'd trade them for old, unimpressive coarse ratchets in a heartbeat. Why? Because I really don't like disassembling ratchets to clean them out, so I want to do it as little as possible. I really like doing maintenance on the Craftsmans more than anything else due to the simple snap ring. No tiny screws to lose, no weird coiled spring ring thing (picking on my SK's there).

 

[Shipfittin]

Again on the 36 tooth head, in heavy/industrial jobs, they flat-assed work, so why kill it? No, they aren't going to win any beauty contests, and there isn't too much of the "look at me!" factor involved. But they are a simple, reliable tool that will get the job done.

You hit the nail on the head, that's exactly how I feel and I generally prefer 36 tooth at my job as well. And work sure as heck ain't no beauty contest, for me or my tools. Have my tools you have weld splatter or old tack weld on them.

And I don't hate Craftsman, I generally prefer using their tools. I've never really had a major issue with anything from them. I personally do not care for their RP line of wrenches and ratchets, just uncomfortable to use. But outside of that, never had a quality problem.

 

[kythri]

Quick release button.

Ahhhh, gotcha. So, instead of "all the plastic parts", we're really talking about "two minor plastic parts"?

Do you see the difference in those statements?

 

[byoungblood]

This doesn't help keep the brand going either. I would honestly not feel bad if they eliminated the warranty for this reason or at least require a receipt. Maybe give the original purchaser the option to register online or something.

My only issue with that is, how are you supposed to warranty something that is 20+ years old? Most of my Craftsman tools were given to me as gifts when I was a teenager, now I'm in my mid-30s.

I really think that you guys totally over-estimate the impact of warranty returns (and abuse) on Sears bottom line. Their hard line tools are being outsourced and/or cheapened in quality because Sears thinks they have to compete with HF on price, instead of with product differentiation. If Sears would market their tools as US made (their current catalog hardly mentions COO), cut out some of the gimmicky ****, and make a point to improve the quality of the products. Do some product comparisons with HF junk, demonstrate why a warranty is pointless if you're having to use it all the time, but reiterate that our warranty is here because we believe in, and stand behind our QUALITY product!

 

[kythri]

I'm completely bewildered as to why you're talking about equivalent dollars spent on a brand new design 45 years ago. It's totally irrelevant.

Except, it's totally relevant. When YOU argue that they've "cheaped out" on the ratchets, it's a perfectly valid statement to point out that the ratchet that you claim is "better" actually cost more, inflation-adjusted, than the ratchet being sold today.

Per this catalog:

http://www.roseantiquetools.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/craftsman1954.pdf

In 1954, a 3/8's raised-panel ratchet cost $3.40.

Adjusted for inflation, that ratchet would cost $28.68 today, but instead, it's $15.99, and typically on-sale for less.

Inflation-adjusted, today's $15.99 would be $1.90.

So, while Sears has "cheaped out" on the production of that tool, they've also made that tool CHEAPER for people to buy - and for a lot of people, they've got no performance issues with that tool. They use it, they abuse it, it works.

An interesting side note, since someone said this:

I would have more respect for craftsman if they just stuck to selling QUALITY basic handtools that always get the job done. stop putting money into "dogbone" wrenches

And I'll point out, I'm using that comment, because it's in this thread, but people keep championing the dogbone wrench as some example of Sears new-found goal of gimmicky tools.

That catalog I linked above? Page 12 has an "Instant Selection 8-in-1 Wrench" - the infamous dogbone. It seems that Sears is sticking to what Sears has always done, doesn't it?

 

[Butters]

You want to know why there's all the hate for Craftsman? (IMHO)

It has less to do with their tools than it does our psyches.

I would wager many people on this board grew up looking at the Craftsman catalog like a kid in the candy store. If we saved our pennies, we could get a very good set of tools at a price that wasn't cheap, but was attainable. A set of tools that would last a lifetime and give you good service. Good enough that you could give them to your kid when he got old enough and be proud of what you had collected.

Sears has now killed that.

Sears is doing what most others are and, for the most part, providing decent tools at a fair price. But that's it.

Nobody dreams of buying a Kobalt/Husky/Mastertool/etc toolkit and passing it on to their kids. They buy them because they are an OK tool at a cheap price. And now, you can add Craftsman to that list.

Business-wise Sears is doing what they think is profitable (at least short term). But they still market Craftsman like it is something special - and it isn't. Dream killers.

 

[GoBlue]

You hit the nail on the head, that's exactly how I feel and I generally prefer 36 tooth at my job as well. And work sure as heck ain't no beauty contest, for me or my tools. Have my tools you have weld splatter or old tack weld on them.

And I don't hate Craftsman, I generally prefer using their tools. I've never really had a major issue with anything from them. I personally do not care for their RP line of wrenches and ratchets, just uncomfortable to use. But outside of that, never had a quality problem.

I have no issues with them at all. As a mechanic i use Craftsman 36 tooth head ratchets and RP wrenches every day and have never broken one or had an issue when a cheater pipe wasn't involved. I get great service from them. I have other brands of tools such as Snap-0n, Matco as well as MAC and SK. Im not a Craftsman superfan or anything but i like them and view them as quality tool and the best overall value. Keep in mind we are a small percentage here. To the general tool owning public...Craftsman is king

 

[AZ_Catskinner]

I've been learning that millwrights in general seem to have a soft spot for Craftsman. Craftsman's basic hardline tools are the place to be for simple, old time reliability. Being able to get what you need virtually anywhere, even on a Sunday makes them even more attractive to the heavy construction trades.

 

[pipsters]

You want to know why there's all the hate for Craftsman? (IMHO)

It has less to do with their tools than it does our psyches.

I would wager many people on this board grew up looking at the Craftsman catalog like a kid in the candy store. If we saved our pennies, we could get a very good set of tools at a price that wasn't cheap, but was attainable. A set of tools that would last a lifetime and give you good service. Good enough that you could give them to your kid when he got old enough and be proud of what you had collected.

Sears has now killed that.

Sears is doing what most others are and, for the most part, providing decent tools at a fair price. But that's it.

Nobody dreams of buying a Kobalt/Husky/Mastertool/etc toolkit and passing it on to their kids. They buy them because they are an OK tool at a cheap price. And now, you can add Craftsman to that list.

Business-wise Sears is doing what they think is profitable (at least short term). But they still market Craftsman like it is something special - and it isn't. Dream killers.

I agree with your whole post. You are correct Sears is continually devaluing what we grew up with, and it's sad to watch the brand die like it is. I go to my fathers house and it's Craftsman everything. All made in the USA from drills to pliers to sockets. Everything. Now only the ratchets, sockets, wrenches, screwdrivers, and prybars are made here in the USA. Everything else branded Craftsman is imported.

 

[Aberdale]

As a consumer, I would prefer Sears hold the Craftsman tool line to a higher quality level, and raise prices accordingly to keep that quality. I have no problem paying a higher price for a higher quality product that I can trust, and I don't expect to get great quality at a discount.

Unfortunately, Sears has bean counters with statistical formulas that give them a "window of opportunity" for maximum sales and margins. Basically, it determines the price point in which they can maximize the quantity of sales to consumers at the highest margins. All of this assumes that quality is constant.

Unfortunately, when Sears pressures their suppliers to meet a cost point, they assume (and the manufacturer likely promises) equivalent quality. Sometimes they can pull it off. Sometimes cutting corners in materials, proesses, or quality control, just falls short of meeting that goal, and we get ****.

I just don't believe that Sears factors in the loss of confidence by consumers when a product falls short. I believe Sears thinks that a "lifetime warranty" covers all sins, since a defective product can be returned for a replacement or refund. Many consumers don't use their tools enough to find the shortcomings. Some do. Those of us that do find the flaws are slowly becoming dissatisfied customers regardless of the warranty, and are finding other tool brand to meet our needs. Often this is because the replacement tool is inferior to the one we bought.

It's sad, but Sears has more competition now than they have ever had, and they just haven't been in that position before. As a retailer, I think they put too much emphasis on price point and not enough on quality because that's what they think that consumers want. And they may be right. But then again, in the long term that may take them down . . .

Dale

 

[IMCA38]

Once upon a time, I was a huge Craftsman guy. About 20-ish years ago, I bought stuff there constantly. Without boring everyone to death listing it all, suffice it to say I have a lot of their stuff. However, about 10-15 years ago, I started to notice that they didn't have the good sales like they used to. I also used to belong to the Crastsman Club and got additional savings from that. On the rare occasion that I damaged something, free replacements were at the ready. Fast forward now. Few if any sales, inflated prices on items that have now been outsourced overseas, and some real **** shenanigans on some of the tools.
For example- A few years ago, I sprung for an 18V drill/driver and flashlight kit. Loved it, but after 2-3 years, the batteries crapped out. Went back and bought a replacement 18V battery and when I got it home, discovered that it was different from my old batteries and wouldn't go in the drill. Took it back and was told they changed the design of the 18V stuff and I was essentially SOL. Perfectly good drill in the bone pile.
Also, I've trashed a few of the Craftsman ratcheting box end wrenches. I've been warrantied with stuff that isn't even close to what I had. Really sux.
Also, I've looked for new tools to complement my existing stuff and find out they don't have anything close. Case in point is the line wrenches. Ended up getting a metric set at Harbor Freight for under $10 that looks identical to the made in china Craftsman set for $40.
I am also amused to see Craftsman stuff at KMart, Ace Hardware, and now Menards.
Not sure where they're heading with this, but doesn't look too good......

 

[AZ_Catskinner]

I'm happier than hell to see Craftsman at Ace. It really helps in the small town markets when you need something in a hurry.

 

[browntown]

craftsman could revitalize their brand by doing two things:

- getting rid of all raised panel wrenches, ratchets, and base-line screwdrivers. Anyone that spends any time using tools will eventually curse them or repurpose them into hammers. I use them for loaners and for a junkyard trip.

-dont offshore anything.

If they ran a commercial "Coming in 2012..... All craftsman branded products will be proudly made in america and with the quality your grandfather expected."

I think people would pay more. I'd hope they would.

 

[boostedgt]

i dont mind raised panel stuff.. mine is from the mid 90's.. i even use the screwdrivers still

 

[GoBlue]

craftsman could revitalize their brand by doing two things:

- getting rid of all raised panel wrenches, ratchets, and base-line screwdrivers. Anyone that spends any time using tools will eventually curse them or repurpose them into hammers. I use them for loaners and for a junkyard trip.

-dont offshore anything.

If they ran a commercial "Coming in 2012..... All craftsman branded products will be proudly made in america and with the quality your grandfather expected."

I think people would pay more. I'd hope they would.

Couldn't disagree more. The RP stuff is all that is left that made in American consistently. I use some it professionally and it never lets me down. I actually like it a lot. Also, while we tool junkies would love Grandpas quality in an American tool...your average Walmart shopping Hundai driving ******* could care less about quality or COO

 

[bhclark]

I too don't understand the hate for the RP stuff.
That's mostly what I have (20 years old) and I love it!

 

[browntown]

Maybe it's my wimpy hands, but the RP wrenches and baseline screwdrivers hurt my hands when working them hard.

 

[WRX/Z28]

It's probably from using 3/8 drive on something that should have 1/2 drive on it. I know that's my problem. I grab 3/8 for everything, and a lot of times it's not enough.

My RP's are still problem free.

 

[Phinxter]

I don't know if this was mentioned cause I couldn't sit and read all 110 replies

I got a variety of sockets and wrenches, the chrome sockets mostly Crapsman. The advantage for me is when a socket breaks I can go to sears right after work and have it replaced, I might have to wait a week for the tool truck to show up otherwise unless I have spare sockets laying around. I use air tools for as many things as possible, to heck with all that hand-wrenching ****.

 

[jim2664258]

I kinda wonder how much different the feeling would be if the 'standard' ratchets that Sears sells now were just a lot better. A lot of the bashing seems to be aimed at the raised-panel ratchets, which do really ****. But outside of those, I have no complaints about Craftsman *hand tools*. Wouldn't buy any of their power tools, but that's been true for a very long time.

 

[Ben Iv]

One word CHINA

 

[CARS]

When I started autobody school, I bought Craftsman because of price. I still have 90% of those sockets and wrenches.

I remember my 3/8" ratchet was getting sloppy after about 10 years of use. I went to the store and they gave me a kit to replace everything in it. Worked great for many years, then I wore it out again. This time they just handed me a new ratchet (or a rebuilt one?) and sent me out the door. This one is junk from day one compared to the original one.

As my tools wear I upgrade. I bought a 3/8" ratchet from SK. Real nice and good price. A great replacement for the craftsman.

Then, I broke it. I sent it back to the store with my jobber who would send it in for repair/replacement. A month later I am wondering what is taking so long. SK went belly-up. Who knows how long it would take to get it back.

After a couple month go by, he shows up with my replacement. I hate this POS! It is not the same at all. Plastic parts and not as tight.

So, I am moving on to the only tool truck left in my area. Snap On. Problem with that is it's much more expensive and I have had 3 different dealers in the last 5 years. SO dealers are unstable in this area. No MAC driver, No Cornwell, etc available.

 

[caseyrod]

my first set of tools was craftsman i still own them,but i have not bough any craftsman tools for over 20 yrs.mostly you can buy better tools cheaper today.the ratchets are garbage all ways being how ever the best braker bar made is craftsman.other then that i dont buy there tools anymore.

 

[AZ_Catskinner]

craftsman could revitalize their brand by doing two things:

- getting rid of all raised panel wrenches, ratchets, and base-line screwdrivers. Anyone that spends any time using tools will eventually curse them or repurpose them into hammers. I use them for loaners and for a junkyard trip.

I'm also in huge disagreement with that. Granted, the ratchets aren't what they once were and the RP wrenches are anything but pretty, but I don't see my RP stuff giving me any trouble. I love my RP wrench sets at work, they've been through tons of blatant abuse and never give me any problems. Where else are you going to get American made hand tools at the same price point?

I also must have a defective set of the base screwdrivers - none of them have given me any problems. The giant flathead that I use as a prybar is still straight as an arrow. Even the keychain thing that I use for opening epoxy cans is still in good shape.

And just for the record, I use my tools anywhere from 8-16 hours a day, and have been doing so for quite a few years and I've never cursed an RP Craftsman, or repurposed it. I did modify a 15/16" combo into an obstruction wrench with the torch once, but I still use it regularly.

 

[WRX/Z28]

I'm also in huge disagreement with that. Granted, the ratchets aren't what they once were and the RP wrenches are anything but pretty, but I don't see my RP stuff giving me any trouble. I love my RP wrench sets at work, they've been through tons of blatant abuse and never give me any problems. Where else are you going to get American made hand tools at the same price point?

I also must have a defective set of the base screwdrivers - none of them have given me any problems. The giant flathead that I use as a prybar is still straight as an arrow. Even the keychain thing that I use for opening epoxy cans is still in good shape.

And just for the record, I use my tools anywhere from 8-16 hours a day, and have been doing so for quite a few years and I've never cursed an RP Craftsman, or repurposed it. I did modify a 15/16" combo into an obstruction wrench with the torch once, but I still use it regularly.

I think you hit the nail on the head. This really seems to be the biggest issue for most people. Aesthitics. Low tooth count is not really a problem as much as it is a less pleasing attribute when spinning the ratchet. RP's handles are fine if you use the proper sizing (IE half drive for high torque applications). They're just not pretty, and people have seen the same design for years so there is nothing "special" about them. Everyone has one, so why brag about a ratchet that isn't any different than what everyone else has. It's much easier to lament them.

Personally, I like mine. They serve their purpose. I've yet to break one/wear one out. I've cleaned out a few of them, but that's about all. Most tools I get from sears/craftsman hold up very well, including some of the Evolv stuff I threw in my junkyard bag. You can imagine the abuse they see...

I do own some snap on ratchets, and amazingly, they make rebuild kits for those. Nobody seems to view them with the same disdain when they fail.

 

[AZ_Catskinner]

I do own some snap on ratchets, and amazingly, they make rebuild kits for those. Nobody seems to view them with the same disdain when they fail.

I do!! I absolutely HATE the Dual 80's. I bought two when they first came out and traded them both off within a couple of weeks (I replaced one with a Bluepoint and traded the other to a coworker for a Blackhawk ¼" drive set and a Diet Dr Pepper). Both just felt like they were going to disintegrate if I looked at them funny.

 

[JohnFreeman]

I like 'em...particularly the older stuff. They've served me very well over the years.

I view the "hate" as displeasure at others enjoying good tools at a lower cost.

John

 

[diesel research]

Here is one thing a lot of people forget:

No matter the ergonomics/strength/durability/warranty/appearance, they simply don't produce the "basic" line in a lot of the desired configurations and sizes.

Seems you can't hardly find a socket set that doesn't skip several metric sizes or have the same sizes in both shallow and deep for example.

The raised panel lineup is pretty much only USA wrenches left. It's selection and variety is a bit thin. Sure not everyone needs 15 different styles of one size, but what about stubbies? long pattern? "normal" length? Far as I know, neither are available made in the USA.