Why the inspection

[sberry]

Over the years I have changed my mind a lot about licensing and inspection and codes. A little like politics and marketing, some of the profit is in the delusion and all the big profit really is.
I believe the manufacturers have got their 2 cents in with codes and are not shy about being up on the curve to profit from it. Most of the contention involves cost/ rewards much as if it is a good idea.
The layman on any subject usually jumps to the first most obvious or the buzz word and really follow the bad math mostly because someone smarter is way ahead of them, hence profits.
Most of this is standard equipment and very competitive provided we don't have special needs or a brain fart by a customer and the juice square d gets is minor compared to all the rest of the salesman and the tax man etc.
I heard the argument about ground wires, then gfci and still hear argument about faulty equipment from dipsticks that are functional,,,, I bet engineers and PHD and Lawyers get that same look when I do it to them and they find out I don't know squat.
The code study or concept and some minor reading and really forum made it clear to a career mechanic that I don't know squat.
It doesn't mean I follow every code, it means I try and when I do something I know is ewrong I do so at my own risk. Similar to seat belt use etc. In todays world understand the circuit well enough I wouldn't throw a **** fit but might move the bond to make it fault. Fixing a dryer connection comes to mind. I can fix my own but not the worlds, if I have a chance I upgrade it, changed one in a rental, could have legally left it but having a new legal wire has long range implications for resale.
That wire when it was in question would have fit in my buds old barn for a welder circuit in a back room etc where if the coating was good would still have been an upgrade, hence the inspection question.
I actually know guys with paper pulling permits really figure its up to the inspector to tell what the did wrong, still takes them a couple tries to a simple service. Act surprised when a 6 inch deep wire wont pass, why would you even call an inspector for a single circuit and then not do the most basic functions correctly, aint ran 20 ft of wire on a single circuit and got half a dozen violations and the inspector and the whole NEC are a bunch of retards on the take for the extra 25$ in box clamps it cost.
Most of this seems to live from people who are not functionally illiterate and write way better than I do
I got 3 neighbors are masters that I know. I know a shitload of trades

 

[sberry]

Believe it or not the biggest cause of problems is not that someone didn't do enough research before they fuk with it but the opposite. I am not talking about looking or asking directions for a common problem but the compulsive conception they are gonna fix it better than the whole figgin industry cause the rest of the world cant see out of the box, their vision is limited till your dumb azz come along to figure it out from a chair in 2016.
Come on a forum with a dozen masters and ask how to plumb a cobble job to a simple sink and then become an expert the next day on code issues because he got a couple fixtures for free.

 

[Zeke]

"Most of this seems to live from people who are not functionally illiterate and write way better than I do"

If anything, that sorta sums up what I think I just read. You really ought to try and tell your story in 3-4 sentences.

 

[sberry]

I think there are some spots being commonly violated. I don't lose sleep with the modern 10 cable on these air comps, most don't even look and hook it to a 30A breaker, its a technical argument that may have some merit depending on the actual draw from the motor and the source of some debate by people above my grade, as I said, if I do it different I do it at my risk and do not jump to the conclusion I can do it differently because I am smarter that the whole collective industry that quite carefully wrote the book which most who make any argument against it have not read any part of.

 

[sberry]

Only about 1/2 of simple service panels installed by maintenance types or handyman pass installation and that's due to the fact usually need it to get the power turned on. After that all but those with a license in their pocket are suspect till proven otherwise. The number one real safety booger I see is in panel to panel connections. Sometimes they get some of it right.
As of late I see they use 4 conductors but land it all on the N bar like they see at the main and leave the enclosure bond screw out.
I believe the ground wire is understood as "some kind of double safety wire"

 

[sberry]

Its a long story that could be shortened but its actually a probe in to the human mind. Take 2 basic commodity things, very similar and throw a brand and a couple opinions and you would think there is night and day difference. People pay double for that but 25 cents a difference for a gallon of milk sells.
It all boils down to risk reward and selling the perception is way more profitable than increasing ultimate quality.

 

[sberry]

I been doing this a while, havnt come up with a single good idea for a code change. I might agree with someone else a change is good but it wont be an original concept and pretty sure wont include the language,,,, but it don't matter that much in mu opinion so it will be fine. That would be my personal feeling and would need to take the risk.
People piss and moan about liability, the real insurance and its not always the cheapest short term is to do a code compliant install.
I feel good every time I rip some pos off a wall and put new in. I sweep the job up but leave an old federal panel with 1/2 the breakers missing and a couple 1 arm bandits in a pile not too far from the new service. Last one I actually did own the house and got a chance to meet the inspector. Good guy, all pro.
I had it all tided up, temp lights and left a box of cable clamps, staples, a screwdriver a hammer and pair of well worn number 9 sitting there. I had batter boards all in place and installed one 15A to a service light and had gfci sitting there made up but not installed and had a breaker in place at 20A

 

[sberry]

The truly smart people I know don't believe a bunch of nonsense.

 

[James-W]

I think this forum should have mandatory drug testing before posting.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

That reminds me,has anybody seen my metformin?
I think sberry might need it more than I do today.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I believe the manufacturers have got their 2 cents in with codes and are not shy about being up on the curve to profit from it. Most of the contention involves cost/ rewards much as if it is a good idea.

2 words : arc fault

Yes, I know that most residential fires are cause by electrical issues, but I have not seen many (any ?) residents in my metro area where the initial source of combustion was an arc in an outlet.

2 more words : tamperproof outlets

Yes, it is a good idea, but what is the cost/reward ? Those little plastic safety plugs have protected my two kids and my 5 grandchildren. Heck, I don't even remember any of them trying to remove them (of course, even my 2 yo granddaughter knows what "No thank you please" means and complies).


Let's not start on what or "nanny government" has done to the auto industry. If you have >5-7 yo mid size or full size SUV with front, side and rear air "curtains" and it gets in an accident where all the air bags deploy, it is probably going to be scrapped because just replacing the air bags will cost >$10,000 ! I have been driving for a long time and have never been in an accident that would have/could have caused the air bags to deploy so maybe I am just jaded.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

2 words : arc fault

Yes, I know that most residential fires are cause by electrical issues, but I have not seen many (any ?) residents in my metro area where the initial source of combustion was an arc in an outlet.

2 more words : tamperproof outlets

Yes, it is a good idea, but what is the cost/reward ? Those little plastic safety plugs have protected my two kids and my 5 grandchildren. Heck, I don't even remember any of them trying to remove them (of course, even my 2 yo granddaughter knows what "No thank you please" means and complies).


Let's not start on what or "nanny government" has done to the auto industry. If you have >5-7 yo mid size or full size SUV with front, side and rear air "curtains" and it gets in an accident where all the air bags deploy, it is probably going to be scrapped because just replacing the air bags will cost >$10,000 ! I have been driving for a long time and have never been in an accident that would have/could have caused the air bags to deploy so maybe I am just jaded.

 

[James-W]

Let's not start on what or "nanny government" has done to the auto industry. If you have >5-7 yo mid size or full size SUV with front, side and rear air "curtains" and it gets in an accident where all the air bags deploy, it is probably going to be scrapped because just replacing the air bags will cost >$10,000 ! I have been driving for a long time and have never been in an accident that would have/could have caused the air bags to deploy so maybe I am just jaded.

I wonder if your opinion would change if you, or some family members, were to be in a very serious accident where they were broadsided, the air bags deployed and the occupants of the vehicle walked away unharmed because the air bags were there?

 

[frankush]

Is it too many meds or not enough? Whether it's safety devices in the electrical industry or in the world of automotive design, these devices do save lives. I often think that the bodies that mandate these changes fail to look at the big picture. They increase the cost of ownership and reduce reliability. The actual products are always technology driven. When the technology becomes obsolete, it gets recycled or disposed of. It's all part of the "throw away" society we've become. Buy, buy, buy Spend that money. Every time Apple comes out with a new I-phone, nobody wants the 9 month old model anymore. I think what it all boils down to is there's a reason many can't afford to buy a new home or a new car. It's the increased cost of all the mandated technology.

 

[sberry]

I am able to change my opinion. Most of the mandates or improvements may be better than I think if I were to here my opinion on the first seemingly obvious conclusion I jump to. If I really don't understand in the first place it makes my judgement double faulty.
EEarly I would have said it was all going to be less reliable but real evidence says the mandates on emissions lead the way to the 100k tune up and end of routine valve job.
Tires last 2x Everything has improved.
If it wasn't code it wouldn't move. There would always be some dipstick gonna always do it differently. Wouldn't be standardized anything.

 

[sberry]

My original point was,, there was no point in using the old wire if there was an inspection... yes the wire would work but it won't pass. Makes our opinion about it irrelevent.

 

[kjdhawkhill]

2 words : arc fault

Yes, I know that most residential fires are cause by electrical issues, but I have not seen many (any ?) residents in my metro area where the initial source of combustion was an arc in an outlet.

2 more words : tamperproof outlets

Yes, it is a good idea, but what is the cost/reward ? Those little plastic safety plugs have protected my two kids and my 5 grandchildren. Heck, I don't even remember any of them trying to remove them

Just saying, any version of outlet cover or protector that I've seen, I've also tried. Maybe my kid is just driven or wired differently, but at 1 and 3/4 years, he can defeat them all. My dad with arthritic fingers can't get his phone charger plugged in, but the boy rips out the safety plugs faster than I can cross the room to scold him.

I also didn't wear a bike helmet growing up, + I survived, but that doesn't mean helmets are wasteful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[carcruse]

2 words : arc fault

Yes, I know that most residential fires are cause by electrical issues, but I have not seen many (any ?) residents in my metro area where the initial source of combustion was an arc in an outlet.

.

You are in luck, the new 2016 Michigan Residential Code no longer requires Arc Fault protection from what I'm hearing.

 

[bczygan]

I think this forum should have mandatory drug testing before posting.

Yes!

And you should be required to test positive, so you can make sense out of Sberry's threads!

Bill
I understand his posts....but then what does that say about MY mental state?

Bill

 

[fteufert]

Laws and codes are fine and dandy, but at the end of the day, stupidity or lack of common sense will prevail, and someone will get hurt.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I wonder if your opinion would change if you, or some family members, were to be in a very serious accident where they were broadsided, the air bags deployed and the occupants of the vehicle walked away unharmed because the air bags were there?

Maybe.

Like I originally said, what bothers me the most is the replacement costs.

 

[sberry]

Laws and codes are fine and dandy, but at the end of the day, stupidity or lack of common sense will prevail, and someone will get hurt.

Where would we be without it?

 

[sberry]

As for nonsense we got plenty on forums and then there is always someone right behind to say,,, you go girl! Neither one know squat about any of it.
Now we can research till their eyes are red and we feel like experts in 24 hours and know more than most real experts.We seem that a a single experience or a couple posts are statistical facts and this seems to be endorsed by people should know better.
Take the water heater thread,, all these kind fail and there are less problems with this one and that one,, presented by someone has read a post and no real experience,, usually I got to wonder, I have 3 or 4, shouldn't at least one apply to me? But one guy has a leak in a tank and now they are all like that.
Not only is one just one but there is a whole gang knows even less about it starts searching supy houses for the magic unit the will never have to service, hoard some parts for it.
We got peoe convinced they should worry about the warranty in 30 years on a cheap hand tool, another gang right behind with a push.
I do restrain my self, should start many responses with, where did you learn this? There are usually some standard answers.. Someone told me is one. I wonder,, well who is someone? This is usually followed with,,, I just don't understand, this is reapeated and usually interpreted as a license to it the day they think, followed or offered up as the way I did it,, somehow making it legitimate.

 

[sberry]

Another one of my faves,, I was always told. That has made a lot of dumb **** facts.

 

[Stuff]

What do you do about the licensed professional that knows everything? Had an outside electrical company do some installations at work and insists that every panel has to have the neutral and ground bonded? In my area inspections are only for new construction.

 

[sberry]

They are a problem too. Michigan is fairly stringent, they weed a lot out. Our thing is the handyman and the jerked off maintenance guy. There is a bureau of codes, I have had builders push license in my face and when I open my phone book and suggest we call the bureau to see about it they usually don't think much of that idea. Most dipsticks have more than one complaint.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What do you do about the licensed professional that knows everything? Had an outside electrical company do some installations at work and insists that every panel has to have the neutral and ground bonded? In my area inspections are only for new construction.

I have worked with licensed electricians who thought they knew it all and it became very clear real quick that they didnt know some very basics. *facepalm* Just because u have a license doesnt mean u know what youre doing..

Sounds like the company u dealt with was stuck on pre-2008 NEC code cycle. *facepalm*

And even then panels in the same building as the main were NEVER suppose to have a bounded neutral...

I hope u told them to leave!!

 

[sberry]

Why is it I think the change was in 96,, seems its been gospel way longer than that.

 

[sberry]

This is a copy of the way it was splained to me, I follow the numbers in the book to verify what is "allowable"

For replacement of non-grounding-type receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-circuit extensions only in existing installations that do not have an equipment grounding conductor in the branch circuit, connections shall be permitted as indicated in 250.130(C). C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following: (1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50 (2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor (3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates (4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure (5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure If you use the water pipe, the connection must be within 5 feet of where the pipe enters the building.
You are permitted to replace a two-wire nongrounding type receptacle with a GFCI under the following in section 406.3 (3) Nongrounding-Type Receptacles. Where grounding means does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (a), (b), or (c). (a) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another nongrounding-type receptacle(s). (b) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked "No Equipment Ground." An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle. (c) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked "GFCI Protected" and "No Equipment Ground." An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles. When you make this change be very, very careful that you get the hot "black" wire on the right side of the outlet.


(B) With Circuit Conductors. By an equipment grounding conductor contained within the same raceway, cable, or otherwise run with the circuit conductors.
NEC HANDBOOK COMMENTARY;
One of the functions of an equipment grounding conductor is to provide a low-impedance ground-fault path between a ground fault and the electrical source. This path allows the overcurrent protective device to actuate, interrupting the current. To keep the impedance at a minimum, it is necessary to run the equipment grounding conductor within the same raceway or cable as the circuit conductor(s). This practice allows the magnetic field developed by the circuit conductor and the equipment grounding conductor to cancel, reducing their impedance.
Magnetic flux strength is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the two conductors. By placing an equipment grounding conductor away from the conductor delivering the fault current, the magnetic flux cancellation decreases. This increases the impedance of the fault path and delays operation of the protective device.

 

[sberry]

Wylie, the guy that did the above wrote a real good one on panels and panel to panel that was as slick as I ever heard it explained. I am going to change the file system, I got them separated and have to find that sucker

 

[sberry]

They have not read the language, it has to be a described point, the lay type breezes thru and reads it as any point, thinks they read and understand it. This then goes a step further but I find my memory doesn't recall exact like I think it does, read it more than once, read it 6 months apart and then apply it over and over and I still have not reached the full understanding of even fundamental principles.
There is level I give up or I change gears. I have said before, I don't know anything about electricity, I would be what a guy might call a wireman I spose but I got a guy works for me that knows dam near everything Edison ever knew about it and then some by basic fundamental principle, doesn't know anything about codes except to calculate he isn't going to overheat and not to defeat fundamental protection engineered in.
I know a fair amount of code but not one thing about a fuggin electron. I got to look at a pic of a 3 way. I can install pipes, cables and wires in a fashion they are connected properly and even expertly due to the fact it is a fitting job and it will pass a forensic as well as work, cover any load or expected load, be convenient to use.

 

[sberry]

My neighbor, working master for 35, not the same as my bud, really a wireman also but says I know a 100 electricians and you would be on my short list to have someone wire my house.
I know why it is. Not due to being smart, he knows by trade am a welder but its just general workman ship, not all super fussy but knows I wont hide a booger where I don't think anyone would see etc or cause it saved a little work.
The bigger things get the easier it is to hide, as number of employees grow the pool gets smaller, the owners don't know or loose contact or got know issue trying to stick it to the public to get rich or even spread the slack. I have got to hand it to a few owners that managed to make a decent living employing the most bums or fuddy duddies.
No one was in any hurry. I have also see a few well run outfits ran out of a shack. The facility hurt some of them, the saving grace was well trained help, got it done on time and got well paid if the woirk got done as expected or sooner.
I was a sign installer for a while, didn't know the first thing about it specifically but the crane operator did and I follow with all the skill set weapons. We had customers call all the time about the installation, never about fuk up and never about what wonderful human beings we were but all about did what it took. The salesman from a car lot must not had much to do all day but they have seen people dodder and they seen it done.

 

[sberry]

The **** I worked with had a chip and I had kind of talked my way in to a union shop when I was on the road. It was very click driven and nothing personal and I was an *** anyway but the learning curve was super in hindsight.
I worked my way to the bottom of the sign biz 2 or 3 years later, ha. The more I knew about something the worse it got. Its still an issue.

 

[bczygan]

Wylie, the guy that did the above wrote a real good one on panels and panel to panel that was as slick as I ever heard it explained. I am going to change the file system, I got them separated and have to find that sucker

I'd like to see that one too.

And I'm going to slowly rewire a house that has ungrounded outlets. Should be fun.

Bill

 

[James-W]

Maybe.

Like I originally said, what bothers me the most is the replacement costs.

There is no doubt about it, (I agree with you completely) the cost to replace the air bags is unreal. On the other hand, if you are in a real bad accident and they save you from being seriously injured or killed, then I would say they are well worth it.

I guess it all depends on the situation. If you are in a minor fender bender and the air bags deploy, it may very well cost more to replace the air bags than what the vehicle is worth. But the air bags aren't supposed to work unless the impact has more than a certain amount of force. So for minor fender benders this should not be an issue, but I suppose it sometimes is.

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, without codes and inspections we would be in a terrible mess.
I worked a job in Taiwan and saw some of the things the locals got away with.

There are those who understand what they are doing and are aware of the ramifications of the choices they make.

There are others who do not understand the totality of what they are involved in and need the minimum acceptable standards pointed out to them.

In my limited experience, the inspectors were performing a Safety Check to keep me out of trouble. More than once, they have pointed out something that I thought was minor like a missing staple and then said; I am going to give you a final approval but put in the staple.

The inspector was not interested in re-inspecting the job.

 

[sberry]

I been busy and didn't look today but,, the number one deal is panel to panel missing links. An inspection at service is good but lotso those get added after the fact.

 

[DieselPills]

I didn't even bother to read this thread, I just have to know, why, oh why, sberry, do you have to constantly reply to yourself and your own threads 15 times in a row? Do you realize how annoying everybody thinks that is? Put all your thoughts into one post. If you forgot something, edit it. Most of what you post twice doesn't need to be said at all...

You seem to think yourself some kind of expert but I don't see any expertise at all...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I didn't even bother to read this thread, I just have to know, why, oh why, sberry, do you have to constantly reply to yourself and your own threads 15 times in a row? Do you realize how annoying everybody thinks that is? Put all your thoughts into one post. If you forgot something, edit it. Most of what you post twice doesn't need to be said at all...

You seem to think yourself some kind of expert but I don't see any expertise at all...

hahhahha surely u jest especially with this fine quote:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5493082&postcount=34

I wouldve replied but the thread was closed.

 

[Jason280]

I used to wonder how anyone could amass 15k+ posts on a garage site, but after reading this thread it all makes perfect sense...