Why the inspection

[MushCreek]

My head hurts.....

 

[sberry]

Put something in it to fill the space.

 

[sberry]

I used to wonder how anyone could amass 15k+ posts on a garage site, but after reading this thread it all makes perfect sense...

It took 50 just to try to explain a ground wire.

 

[checkthisout]

Its a long story that could be shortened but its actually a probe in to the human mind. Take 2 basic commodity things, very similar and throw a brand and a couple opinions and you would think there is night and day difference. People pay double for that but 25 cents a difference for a gallon of milk sells.
It all boils down to risk reward and selling the perception is way more profitable than increasing ultimate quality.

Mechanical inspections I.E. wiring, plumbing, HVAC etc are fairly painless and also very affordable.

They are easy to pass so long as you do everything to code and I will say that general electrical codes simply amount to good practice quality workmanship.

You can have messy wiring and still pass so long as everything is grounded and connected properly and the circuits have the necessary required protections.

I can't even get a good anti-government rant in because in some places power companies have jurisdiction and do their own inspections and follow the exact same codes.


AND. I do support the use of AFCI's and Tamper-Proofs! Although I think the introduction of AFCI's may be a bit premature. I have my doubts as to whether or not they will actually function 30 years down the road when a rodent chews a wire or a wire chaffs on a staple or sharp corner.

 

[myredracer]

Yikes... Waaay too much ****ing to read all the OP's posts.

All I know is:

As a professional engineer, I spent an entire career protecting the health, welfare and safety of the public on construction projects, public and private. Engineers everywhere take this role very seriously, as did I. I can't think of a single instance where I thought any code rule was ridiculous or arbitrary and ought to be ignored or relaxed.

Codes and Regulations do not arbitrarily have things in them or because there is pressure from lawyers or manufacturers or lobbying from any other interest group. Rules are created after a long consultation and review process on committees with reps. from different sectors of the particular trade in question (electrical, plumbing, structural, etc.). In some cases it can take many years before a new rule comes into effect or changed. It's an ongoing evolving process as new issues in the industry come to light and as new technology comes into play. If you think a particular rule needs to be modified, make a submission to the code committee in question.

Codes, regulations and standards are there to protect you, the public at large or new owners of your property years later. Unfortunately, some just can't see that. Maybe you don't care about yourself, but when it comes to building construction, you should care about others around you or in the future. If someone doesn't think codes matter, you always have the option of moving to a county in the US or to Latin America where permits and inspections aren't required.

 

[happy2rv]

I can't begin to follow the logic of this thread and whether sberry is for or against inspections. However, my 2 cents is that I'm all for inspections IF they are carried out consistently and judiciously by all involved. One problem is that all too often "inspections" are used as money makers for the jurisdictions involved and not to truly ensure safe building practices.

That's not the only issue. It isn't uncommon for inspectors, even from the same office, to apply and/or interpret codes differently and inconsistently. Inspectors are humans with their own experiences, training, and background and usually have their own "pet peaves." One example that comes up often is the definition of "subject to damage." Some inspectors say wiring below 6' must be in conduit or behind a wall covering. Others say ANY exposed wiring must be protected. But it's not just things that are open to interpretation that are inconsistent. A lot of inspectors choose to focus on one or two code references to enforce. Sometimes it's because they've seen a lot of violations in a particular area. Sometimes it's because they feel those are the "important" codes. Occasionally, and I'm not saying it's the norm, it's because they are lazy or even corrupt.

Again, too often, building inspectors may be biased by who they are dealing with. There shouldn't be any difference in code enforcement whether the work is done by a homeowner, contractor A, contractor B, or contractor C. Anyone who has been involved and paid attention has seen shortcuts and sub-par work done by supposedly seasoned professionals. I understand that "amateurs" are less likely to know the codes and therefore violate them unintentionally. Many times they know they aren't doing it right and hope to get away with it. However, pros are more likely to know exactly what they can get away with and sometimes don't care.

Building and electrical codes are sold to the public by politicians as a way to ensure consistently safe building practices and that's what they should be. As long as the true purpose of inspections is to meet this promise, they are consistently applied to everyone involved, and aren't unreasonably expensive, I have no problem with them.

 

[AlanE]

Yeah who needs codes and inspections. It's okay to run a line over the attic scuttle... isn't it? Sure! The home owner can just push that live wire aside to get up into the attic to change the AC filter.

Bonus: because of the roof trusses and not enough slack in the wire, they can't move it. I suppose one can cut the wire and install a jbox 6' from the hole and route a new cable from there. If that is allowed.

But wait, that's not all; as another added bonus, a live wire that was just sticking up out of the insulation in the attic. Not capped, not taped. I can only assume was to be for a light to the hall closet that was never installed. There is a nice switch in the hall about 5' off the floor for it.

codes and inspections? I'd settle for just a little common sense.

 

[checkthisout]

you always have the option of moving to a county in the US or to Latin America where permits and inspections aren't required.

Sure but I would say that if government didn't take on the role, insurance companies would.

There would still be codes and inspections only you would have an inspection done by an agency hired by the insurance company to ensure that good practices were followed before they would insure the structure/property.

Think Insurance Institute for Highway Safety driving the changes in the auto industry VS NHSTA.

I think the private method would actually be better. I also think the inspections would be a lot more thorough and involved process.

 

[ExxWhy]

Recently there was a thread about inspectors looking at connections and how it's not done because they don't have time. I'd suspect that bad connections would be the leading cause of fires started in the actual house wiring, which isn't a common occurrence anyway. Not so sure what is actually being inspected, admittedly I have little experience in it.

I don't do much wiring but did do 1 job that was "inspected" in a nearby town for a friend. I wasn't there for the inspection, but was told the inspector was only there for about 5 minutes and did a cursory glance around and passed it based on it being neat and orderly. Huh???? That's the criteria?

I live in an area where there are no inspections. The county wanted to organize an inspection department, but a handful of rural townships voted to not join, seeing it as just a money grab. So they run their county department in the cities and suburban areas and leave us country hicks to our own devices. I'm perfectly happy with being responsible for myself. I don't need to pay (insert your local cost here) to have a casual chat with someone with 12 more houses to visit before the end of the day.

That said, I do think having a code is a good idea. Takes care of a lot of the engineering that needs to be done in any installation. It's not perfect, but a good guideline to go by. I can't feel too confident that the typical inspection is really advancing the cause of safety as far as some may think it does.

 

[Dragfluid]

Recently there was a thread about inspectors looking at connections and how it's not done because they don't have time. I'd suspect that bad connections would be the leading cause of fires started in the actual house wiring, which isn't a common occurrence anyway. Not so sure what is actually being inspected, admittedly I have little experience in it.

I don't do much wiring but did do 1 job that was "inspected" in a nearby town for a friend. I wasn't there for the inspection, but was told the inspector was only there for about 5 minutes and did a cursory glance around and passed it based on it being neat and orderly. Huh???? That's the criteria?
I live in an area where there are no inspections. The county wanted to organize an inspection department, but a handful of rural townships voted to not join, seeing it as just a money grab. So they run their county department in the cities and suburban areas and leave us country hicks to our own devices. I'm perfectly happy with being responsible for myself. I don't need to pay (insert your local cost here) to have a casual chat with someone with 12 more houses to visit before the end of the day.

That said, I do think having a code is a good idea. Takes care of a lot of the engineering that needs to be done in any installation. It's not perfect, but a good guideline to go by. I can't feel too confident that the typical inspection is really advancing the cause of safety as far as some may think it does.

Heh, when I built the house 19 years ago and the state inspector was inspecting the wiring, he looked at the cables above the panel and kind of rolled his eyes. I had a lot of circuits and wasn't real **** about putting each cable in a straight line and and right angels, etc, etc. He didn't say anything though, and looked around for a few minutes, plugged his tester in a few outlets, found one that, I believe the ground was open, said "you'll fix that, right?" and signed off on it.


I knew that thread about using/not using the "out of date" cable was going to set the Strawberry guy off.
I see his point just fine.

 

[MushCreek]

 

[checkthisout]

Stop posting pictures of my work please!

 

[Dragfluid]

No, mine wasn't quite like that.

 

[UpstateNY]

My head hurts.....

My brain drained out of my ears.

 

[Pwrgeek]

Last work I had "inspected" the guy didn't even get out of his truck. Signed the green tag and told me just to put it on the meter base. I'm a PE and do inspections in rural areas (TX PEs are allowed to be inspectors for any area that doesn't have their own local inspectors) as a side gig. I can tell you the good contractors welcome a second set of eyes on their work to catch any human error mistakes and the ones that don't want that thorough a check don't ever call me again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ddawg16]

2 words : arc fault

Yes, I know that most residential fires are cause by electrical issues, but I have not seen many (any ?) residents in my metro area where the initial source of combustion was an arc in an outlet.

I personally never seen a tornado......so, I guess they don't exist?

http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/intern...n/SIE_WP_CAFCI_causes_of_electrical_fires.pdf

Two recent reports – one from the National
Fire Protection Agency (NFPA)a and one from
the National Association of State Fire Marshals
(NASFM)b – estimate that 50 to 75 percent of
all electrical home fires in the United States
are caused by arc fault conditions. Data from
the National Fire Incident Reporting System
and the NFPA, meanwhile, indicate that
between 1994 and 1998, electrical arcing
caused approximately 48,800 fires annually in
one- and two-family dwellings.

 

[checkthisout]

I personally never seen a tornado......so, I guess they don't exist?

http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/intern...n/SIE_WP_CAFCI_causes_of_electrical_fires.pdf

Twice, (on two different houses) I have seen severe arcing inside of the walls where rodents chewed the wires.

Here is a pic of one:

View media item 50119
The insulation is completely gone off the hot wire, you just can't tell because they are oxidized from mouse piss. The mouse had filled the wall cavity up with dried seeds and poop and this wiring was in the middle of that. I don't know why it didn't light up. Had to have been that way for 20-30 years. The circuit worked fine. You can see there was only minor arcing.

On another remodel, same deal only the wire damage was much higher up in the wall but the stud the wire was next to had smoke damage and the hole where the wire passed through was charred. That circuit worked fine too....don't know how that didn't light up either.

That's why I support arc faults.

It just makes sense. All the bases are covered. Overcurrent protection causing damage, chaffed wires arcing below the current threshold causing possible fire and GFCI protection to protect the end user from electrocution.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

 

[pacecar]

thats low voltage communication wire, lol, not the worst ive seen

 

[Wirepuller]

Inspections and inspectors are welcomed by me. Keeps unlicensed/ uninsured competitors from creeping into how I put food on my table. It's some times a pain scheduling wise but it's part of the job. Most of the areas I work in I have become very familiar with inspectors and like wise them with me so I know what they look for and most of the time they just stop in shoot the breeze for a few minutes a leave. Hardly ever an issue.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I can't begin to follow the logic of this thread and whether sberry is for or against inspections. However, my 2 cents is that I'm all for inspections IF they are carried out consistently and judiciously by all involved. One problem is that all too often "inspections" are used as money makers for the jurisdictions involved and not to truly ensure safe building practices.

That's not the only issue. It isn't uncommon for inspectors, even from the same office, to apply and/or interpret codes differently and inconsistently. Inspectors are humans with their own experiences, training, and background and usually have their own "pet peaves." One example that comes up often is the definition of "subject to damage." Some inspectors say wiring below 6' must be in conduit or behind a wall covering. Others say ANY exposed wiring must be protected. But it's not just things that are open to interpretation that are inconsistent. A lot of inspectors choose to focus on one or two code references to enforce. Sometimes it's because they've seen a lot of violations in a particular area. Sometimes it's because they feel those are the "important" codes. Occasionally, and I'm not saying it's the norm, it's because they are lazy or even corrupt.

Again, too often, building inspectors may be biased by who they are dealing with. There shouldn't be any difference in code enforcement whether the work is done by a homeowner, contractor A, contractor B, or contractor C. Anyone who has been involved and paid attention has seen shortcuts and sub-par work done by supposedly seasoned professionals. I understand that "amateurs" are less likely to know the codes and therefore violate them unintentionally. Many times they know they aren't doing it right and hope to get away with it. However, pros are more likely to know exactly what they can get away with and sometimes don't care.

Building and electrical codes are sold to the public by politicians as a way to ensure consistently safe building practices and that's what they should be. As long as the true purpose of inspections is to meet this promise, they are consistently applied to everyone involved, and aren't unreasonably expensive, I have no problem with them.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Yikes... Waaay too much ****ing to read all the OP's posts.

All I know is:

As a professional engineer, I spent an entire career protecting the health, welfare and safety of the public on construction projects, public and private. Engineers everywhere take this role very seriously, as did I. I can't think of a single instance where I thought any code rule was ridiculous or arbitrary and ought to be ignored or relaxed.

Codes and Regulations do not arbitrarily have things in them or because there is pressure from lawyers or manufacturers or lobbying from any other interest group. Rules are created after a long consultation and review process on committees with reps. from different sectors of the particular trade in question (electrical, plumbing, structural, etc.). In some cases it can take many years before a new rule comes into effect or changed. It's an ongoing evolving process as new issues in the industry come to light and as new technology comes into play. If you think a particular rule needs to be modified, make a submission to the code committee in question.

Codes, regulations and standards are there to protect you, the public at large or new owners of your property years later. Unfortunately, some just can't see that. Maybe you don't care about yourself, but when it comes to building construction, you should care about others around you or in the future. If someone doesn't think codes matter, you always have the option of moving to a county in the US or to Latin America where permits and inspections aren't required.

So when are you announcing that youre running for public office?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

 

[frankush]

Twice, (on two different houses) I have seen severe arcing inside of the walls where rodents chewed the wires.

Here is a pic of one:

View media item 50119
The insulation is completely gone off the hot wire, you just can't tell because they are oxidized from mouse piss. The mouse had filled the wall cavity up with dried seeds and poop and this wiring was in the middle of that. I don't know why it didn't light up. Had to have been that way for 20-30 years. The circuit worked fine. You can see there was only minor arcing.

On another remodel, same deal only the wire damage was much higher up in the wall but the stud the wire was next to had smoke damage and the hole where the wire passed through was charred. That circuit worked fine too....don't know how that didn't light up either.

That's why I support arc faults.

It just makes sense. All the bases are covered. Overcurrent protection causing damage, chaffed wires arcing below the current threshold causing possible fire and GFCI protection to protect the end user from electrocution.

This is the main reason why I'm not a fan boy of Romex. This doesn't occur with an undamaged piped system, unless you're talking about large feeders that have large overcurrent protection. Rodents generally don't chew through emt. Adding arc faults to a piped system is a waste in my book. I'll take a piped system over arc faults any day of the week.

 

[csmitty]

Yeah who needs codes and inspections. It's okay to run a line over the attic scuttle... isn't it? Sure! The home owner can just push that live wire aside to get up into the attic to change the AC filter.

Bonus: because of the roof trusses and not enough slack in the wire, they can't move it. I suppose one can cut the wire and install a jbox 6' from the hole and route a new cable from there. If that is allowed.

But wait, that's not all; as another added bonus, a live wire that was just sticking up out of the insulation in the attic. Not capped, not taped. I can only assume was to be for a light to the hall closet that was never installed. There is a nice switch in the hall about 5' off the floor for it.

codes and inspections? I'd settle for just a little common sense.

Honestly. Over my garage ceiling trusses I ran wire across. Its at the end from the access and nothing is stored or any mechanical there. I'm ok with it and have it stapled in a few places.

The uncapped wire though I found when putting in my garage lights. Always wondered what the middle switch in a 3 gang next to the garage door. At least I always left it off. Only when I was up above sorting out wires and where to pull power from I discovered that it could be live, just cut and laying on top of the garage drywall. It used to go to the hole in the garage ceiling where a light was (used to be a carport) door opener is now under it. Scary. So I pulled the old wire out of the JB and ran some new wire. Middle switch actually does something now.

Maybe sometimes more than just a home inspection is needed.

 

[checkthisout]

This is the main reason why I'm not a fan boy of Romex. This doesn't occur with an undamaged piped system, unless you're talking about large feeders that have large overcurrent protection. Rodents generally don't chew through emt. Adding arc faults to a piped system is a waste in my book. I'll take a piped system over arc faults any day of the week.

Yeah. I guess you could use MC or whatever that armored flexible is called but I think that's more than installing arc faults (for an entire house) and you still don't end up with full protection for things like power cords that get pinched.

 

[happy2rv]

Probably the best answer to this thread's title question (was it a question?) is that the guy in this thread or more likely his heirs is going to attempt to sell this property to some unsuspecting buyer. Maybe it doesn't fail today, maybe not tomorrow, maybe it never fails in the nearly instantaneous and catastrophic manner that it very well could. Hopefully no one is on or under this roof if it every collapses. But one things for absolute certain it didn't and wouldn't pass any reasonable building inspection and for good reason. There are way too many maybe's in there.

I only wish that inspections and their requirement actually and consistently protected the public from things like this. I realize this example isn't electrical, but who among us either professional or sound DIY'er that's been around for a while hasn't seen the same type of "engineering" in just about every trade and often hidden from casual inspection. Like I said before, I have no problem with consistent genuine inspections to ensure safe building practices when that's truly what they are implemented for and how they are carried out.

On edit, it would seem that the OP for that thread has edited his posts and removed the pictures. It also seems that he *might* finally be seeking actual advice. We will see...

 

[Dagny]

In the case of arc faults a breaker going from 10 bucks to 50 bucks is guaranteed to cause electricians to put more receptacles on a circuit for sure if the project was bid.

 

[DieselPills]

Codes and Regulations do not arbitrarily have things in them or because there is pressure from lawyers or manufacturers or lobbying from any other interest group. Rules are created after a long consultation and review process on committees with reps. from different sectors of the particular trade in question (electrical, plumbing, structural, etc.).

********! Complete and total ********. Yes, I do see the reason we need codes, but to say that all of them are completely necessary, and NONE of them have been arbitrarily added by somebody with big pockets is preposterous. That is simply not how the American rule system works.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

********! Complete and total ********. Yes, I do see the reason we need codes, but to say that all of them are completely necessary, and NONE of them have been arbitrarily added by somebody with big pockets is preposterous. That is simply not how the American rule system works.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

********! Complete and total ********. Yes, I do see the reason we need codes, but to say that all of them are completely necessary, and NONE of them have been arbitrarily added by somebody with big pockets is preposterous. That is simply not how the American rule system works.

Agreed.

AFCIs = snake oil!! Nuff said!

 

[sberry]

This is kind of my point, and you aint helping. Now we can find something there is some debate on the it feeds the argument the whole code is out to do nothing but get some bum cant do it right. The debate about arc fault is old, this is nothing new but it essentially means you agree with everything the dummy says here about code.
I can go one step farther and make it a stretch but licensing may be even more of an issue and outright scam than the code is. Have to have one licensed professional to take any action against another.
Its pretty much a ticket to sell the most for the least to the edge of a lie. We see some of this jumping to conclusion when someone has got a price for a trouble shooting, the transformer relay thread comes to mind.
The guy has already showed up for a mess for free but there will be some smuck on the internet insist it should have been fixed for 50$ and the part was somewhere on some surplace for 19.95.

 

[sberry]

Now one can do "research" to agree with most any opinion. More has not made it better for everyone as it can never beat this compulsion and a few people really know this. It is exponential as the curve shifts, the more radical the less logic it needs to sustain momentum.
I know electric professionals think they should be able to run speaker wire if they feel like it. They know its wrong like a 1000 other things we do but do it anyway. The inspections are not always about current safety but future, you see the pictures in India, if we let everyone connect grounding as they saw fit how would it be? We know thru certain times by color of wire and methods when work was done etc.
I just used one for trouble shooting. I asked when it was built? The owner looked funny but said 76 It was spec built, not an owner job good or bad but predictable.
I was just involved in an old church, I can see installs in 5 code eras from the beginning where the installer was a licensed journeyman, I can count 2 handyman who I know who left a mark and then another master did some work and some general installs by another guy during a remodel.
I am actually familiar and met all 5 mechanic, even the original, they leave a mark like a bullet, 2 handyman ok, 1 fuks up switch loops but does ground and a 3rd who is a total know didn't believe in ground and actually alter circuits if given a chance,

 

[sberry]

We have a couple wandering around yet that do bootleg panel installs and the workmanship is fair and even good but no one stopped these guys and pointed out the fact they don't hook the wires in the correct places.
I did a follow up with 1 recently. I fixed the issues at the panel as they did use 4 wire, added a gfci, a rod and some protection and identification with a riser as to were the entrance was. Added a switch as disconnect on another shack.
Handy had ran a fair amount of wire and several fixtures, had one issue about damage and the stapling wasn't bad. I didn't open every box but he understood the concept of carrying the grounds thru and ss I said, added gfci.
Believe it or not many inspections are done this way, they don't pick every detail but check for right wire and matching ocpd. As I also said had an entrance done recently and had the supplies sitting there, gfci and a box of staples and a place to staple to. It screamed at the inspector as what was going to go on next without saying a word, he wasn't there to inspect old but I left pile of old materials there and had bought new screws/bolts for any mounting. I am fairly certain the guy has seen enough drywall screws and fender washers and this aint a spot I want to rationalize my opinion on how it should be done.
I reef the main lugs right up with a big ole fat Klein screwdriver. Did them a couple of times and the slight nod of approval I got when the guy checked it said it all. The guy was slick and hit all the forensic points he needed to.

 

[sberry]

I have a cement head bud cant quite get a grip on marketing and I really should be in that biz now. A pint he doesn't play strongly is that when the inspector questions, who is doing the footings and Steve is the answer he gives a go ahead while scheduling every step when Bill does it as you cant trust there will not be a pile of rod someone forgot to place in a pour.
I know career company with 15 men cant pass a single inspection without being caught in to it. The men working for them,,, we never do this or that and just cant understand why someone has to jackhammer it apart to try to find a rod, fugger fell over before its built. To top it off stand right there and tell how many license he has and how the code is stupid and the inspector is an ***.
Standing on a pile of rubble should have made it obvious and I am sure if one looked hard enough could still find someone in agreement.

 

[sberry]

Its always the deadbeats that complain about codes and inspections. No one is saying they are 100% exempt from influence but it isn't as big as one thinks and then we get back to the basic thing again, an amateur thinking he knows which ones are important or not.
Despite not being able to pass any kind of basic he is now qualified as to which rules he should follow, this thread comes full circle.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

This is kind of my point, and you aint helping. Now we can find something there is some debate on the it feeds the argument the whole code is out to do nothing but get some bum cant do it right. The debate about arc fault is old, this is nothing new but it essentially means you agree with everything the dummy says here about code.
I can go one step farther and make it a stretch but licensing may be even more of an issue and outright scam than the code is. Have to have one licensed professional to take any action against another.
Its pretty much a ticket to sell the most for the least to the edge of a lie. We see some of this jumping to conclusion when someone has got a price for a trouble shooting, the transformer relay thread comes to mind.
The guy has already showed up for a mess for free but there will be some smuck on the internet insist it should have been fixed for 50$ and the part was somewhere on some surplace for 19.95.

WRONG!

AFCIs are my only issue.

And I guess youve never heard of lobbysists!!!

 

[sberry]

That should be an issue all its own and I am sure there are minds greater than ours working on it. You figure you actually know more about it than the code people considering it, the engineers who designed it, fire and forensics or even me? Feel free to enlighten with any expertise as to whether It really is a good idea or not?
Did anyone in authority ever come ask us exactly what we thought? The logic that is there due simply due to lobbyists in this case is kind of a stretch and blanket way of saying,,,, I have an opinion but don't really know anything about it.

 

[sberry]

This is a thing I like about the Westom guy. He shows up in a spot that is unique and well misunderstood. He leaves the common service install questions to people wants to answer them.
He wrote a couple pages of general explanation that helped back some insight I had seen elsewhere but help make grounding and isolation way more of a reflex than it was. I really don't give a darn about his personality in his case but to read it for free if I get a chance.
If I am correct he simply states that we want to keep a strike out of the structure or to electrodes as directly as possible. The wire size increase only marginal improvement and distasnce is king and the phone service protection is best bugged on to the system outside the structure to the rods.
__________________

 

[sberry]

I was trying to splain to a mechanic why his brother inlaw grounded the service to the steel well case. He works on the well and doesn't understand the caseing itself (not the egc) but steel casing is as good as it gets and why the antenna should also go there etc.
A lot of hits which are assumed,,, hit the well are not direct but indirect as the motor equipment ground becomes the ground of choice in a poorly grounded system.
I looked at a couple and the home owner assumes a hit to well but it was really thru a poor circuit to a sheet metal outbuilding, coat tailed to mobile home circuit and one can actually see the pathway in reverse with damage to equipment connected to it.