theoldwizard1
Well-known member
UNION electrician, Fortune 50 company !what a *****.... always provide an EGC in your circuits... FIRED!!
Will Electronics and other Items Function properly Without a Ground?
- Thread starter FMC1959
- Start date
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Maybe not "kosher", but with the label, it passes inspection.
Better than those useless 3 prong to 2 prong adapters that want to fall out all of the time !
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Testing and correcting ALL of the outlets for reverse polarity should be NUMBER 1 PRIORITY !
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
unless the WH is a very small single faucet point of use unit (which are usually cord and plug connected), it will not have a neutral.
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
kosher meaning it will not provide the proper pathway for the surge suppressor to operate
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Bigger VAXen (780 and up) ran on 3 phase power. The power distribution "box" in the base of the cabinet would have prevented it ! I am a bit surprised that micoVAX did not have similar protection !I saw an industrial DEC MicroVAX (1980s microcomputer - about $40k back then iirc) that was destroyed after someone plugged it into a "cheater" cord that reversed hot & neutral (no ground of course) and the VAX was connected to a device via RS232 that was hooked up correctly. 120VAC into the RS232 ports toasted the VAX, letting the magic smoke out...
(Learned about "phase rotation" on 3 phase power when installing and 8650. The fan (a good sized 3 phase squirrel cage with dual "cages") was rotating backward (**** not blow) when we first powered it up. Simply swapped 2 of the hot lead in the plug.)
zimman
Well-known member
I'm using a standard volt meter, positive on the shower handle, negative to the drain in the tub. 3.12v. If that is the "metering" your talking about that's what I did.correct. but that is a separate issue than a surge suppressor with no EGC connectivity
horrible advice. fire your electrician
all metallic piping is to be bonded (required by code) to prevent it from becoming energized and electrocuting someone. you said you had 3.12v to the shower handle? and that was metering from what other connection?
you do realize the plumbing bond was just providing a pathway to complete the circuit? whatever other object you were metering from has voltage on it and it shouldnt. This is the object that needs to be investigated for stray voltage.
so you didnt fix the problem and created another potentially dangerous one.... again fire your electrician. he h as no clue what he is doing!!!
I have no idea what bonding is. I bond with my children.
If you have electricity to the shower handle and you touch it, you become the ground correct?
Zim
You only become "the ground" at the time of touching the handle if your body is already grounded. Then you will get a tingle or more.
If you were standing on a dry bathmat or towel, you most likely wouldn't be grounded and could hold onto the handle all day long.
Same scenario as a bird on a wire in free air.
dave*99
Well-known member
Bonding is pretty simple. If you connect a wire to the metal drain piping and run the same wire to the copper water pipes you have bonded them. Since they are bonded they will not show a voltage difference between them. You would not see 3.12 volts in your measurement If you also continue that concept and connect those bonded pipes to the electrical ground system they are grounded.
There are more technical details to this but I hope it helps.
bwringer
Well-known member
Apropos of absolutely nothing important, I really like how they twirled the wires together for this gadget's photo, like a little hairdo.
I was in a busy bar band for many years, and we carried a tester, meter, and a few tools. We always tested the stage and lighting outlets before plugging in our equipment. We found quite a few nasty surprises, and corrected some when we were able and could access the breakers.
That's also one of the reasons we switched to wireless units for my bass and the guitars; 120VAC through the lips due to faulty wiring when you step up to sing the first song is a bit of a brain scrambler.
See, some electricians (or people who call themselves electricians) like to drink, and bar owners don't like to spend money. Put these things together and you find that a lot of the wiring in bars was done by people who were paid with on the job beer.
Same goes for a lot of the construction and improvements in bars, for that matter. It's amazing more bars don't burn down, frankly.
dave*99
Well-known member
When I was a sound man I saw a lot of stage lighting dimmer packs powered from jumper cable clamps on to the mains in a panel near the stage.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Ive seen people do that for hardwood floor sanders on a house remodel. Bus bars exposed and all…
i just 
......
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
since the shower handle is bonded (and you removed that bond), this means the drain is what has the voltage on it and it needs to be corrected. it could just be capacitive coupling/ghost voltage, but either way, you need to rebond the shower handle and bond the drain then check to see if any breakers trip (highly unlikely with such low voltage).
bonding is where you connect a ground wire from the EGC bus in the electrical panel to a metal object such as a gas or water line. This prevents said object from becoming energized when an ungrounded conductor (hot) accidentally/inadvertently touches said object. Its to prevent the potential for shock hazard...
no. you would be at the same potential as the shower handle but if there is no return pathway to the neutral bus in the panel there isnt a complete circuit and you wouldnt get shocked. Remember, electricity is trying to return to its source (transformer) not the ground/earth. This is confusing to some.... And its not a matter of you becoming the ground, its a matter of completing the circuit.
however if you were bare foot on a concrete or tile floor especially a wet one, you could then be shocked because you have completed the circuit by way of the grounding electrode tying the earth/concrete to the neutral bus in the panel....
this actually happened to my (now ex) wife years ago. our bathroom floor was wet, she stepped on the metal door threshold and water while sliding her hand past the screw on an ungrounded light switch (to turn on the lights) that had an internal fault unbeknownst to us.... she got zapped
.... i immediately took the faceplate off and pulled everything out of the j box to find a non-grounding (no green screw/ground terminal on the yoke) light switch that had potential to the yoke. replaced the switch (and connected the ground wire) and all was good...EDIT TO ADD: the purpose of EGCs and bond wires are to provide a low impedance fault current pathway to facilitate a large enough current magnitude/short circuit(ungrounded conductor to grounding conductor/EGC via neutral bond in main service panel) to facilitate an opening of the ungrounded conductors connection to the bus bar supply via the magnetic trip mechanism in the breaker...
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^^^^^ All that and bonding intends to create a low resistance fault path so that at the instant of unintended contact, it will enable a fault current of large enough magnitude to quickly trip the cb.since the shower handle is bonded (and you removed that bond), this means the drain is what has the voltage on it and it needs to be corrected. it could just be capacitive coupling/ghost voltage, but either way, you need to rebond the shower handle and bond the drain then check to see if any breakers trip (highly unlikely with such low voltage).
bonding is where you connect a ground wire from the EGC bus in the electrical panel to a metal object such as a gas or water line. This prevents said object from becoming energized when an ungrounded conductor (hot) accidentally/inadvertently touches said object. Its to prevent the potential for shock hazard...
no. you would be at the same potential as the shower handle but if there is no return pathway to the neutral bus in the panel there isnt a complete circuit and you wouldnt get shocked. its not a matter of you becoming the ground, its a matter of completing the circuit.
however if you were bare foot on a concrete or tile floor especially a wet one, you could then be shocked because you have completed the circuit by way of the grounding electrode tying the earth/concrete to the neutral bus in the panel....
this actually happened to my (now ex) wife years ago. our bathroom floor was wet, she stepped on the metal door threshold and water while sliding her hand past the screw on an ungrounded light switch (to turn on the lights) that had an internal fault unbeknownst to us.... she got zapped
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
thanks for adding that
thats the one thing i forgot to put in that long write updave*99
Well-known member
I’ve seen that too. No way this sander is running on 120. His jumper box did have a breaker in it. It was clamped on the mains.Ive seen people do that for hardwood floor sanders on a house remodel. Bus bars exposed and all…
zimman
Well-known member
Thank you for that.
Zim
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Saw it also. I just shook my head and walked away !Ive seen people do that for hardwood floor sanders on a house remodel. Bus bars exposed and all…
it really wouldn't be much harder to have a couple 50A breakers in the kit, a spider box and a long cord. smfh.
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