Woodworkers...cabinet makers....help!

[ChristopherLutz]

All,

I've just completed my first cabinet build....and *surprise* it's out of square.

I check and checked along the way but I suppose that somehow while assembling and clamping, I "completed" the thing....and I'm now nearly 3/4 inch out of square on an 85'' by 42'' cabinet.

Since I had so much invested, i went ahead and completed it, putting the face on, etc.

I'm concerned now that when I put the doors on it's going to look terrible. (NOTE: it's not noticable now..and it's even level - which confuses me)

Any tips for the doors? I "think" I can cut them square and put them on, but will end up with the hinges at different depths on the faceplate. I plan to use 1/2'' MDF for the doors and use an overlay style.

I have more cabinets to build - how to I get them square for assembly...and keep them that way as I add shelves, etc.?

 

[Duker]

All,

I've just completed my first cabinet build....and *surprise* it's out of square.

I check and checked along the way but I suppose that somehow while assembling and clamping, I "completed" the thing....and I'm now nearly 3/4 inch out of square on an 85'' by 42'' cabinet.

Since I had so much invested, i went ahead and completed it, putting the face on, etc.

I'm concerned now that when I put the doors on it's going to look terrible. (NOTE: it's not noticable now..and it's even level - which confuses me)

Any tips for the doors? I "think" I can cut them square and put them on, but will end up with the hinges at different depths on the faceplate. I plan to use 1/2'' MDF for the doors and use an overlay style.

I have more cabinets to build - how to I get them square for assembly...and keep them that way as I add shelves, etc.?

Chris, by out of square I am going to guess you mean it is racked so that when you measure diagonally it is 3/4" longer on one side?

Assuming all of the parts were cut square and correct in length...some ideas...

Can you put a clamp (or use a couple linked together) on the longest side to squeeze it back into square. Even if the back was glued sometimes you can move it enough to square the carcass. Can you put some 90 degree corner blocks in to help square it?

Since you mentioned overlay doors those will hide a lot of mistakes but you may need to go to 1/2 or 3/4 overlays to hide the gap.

There is always trim.... Put a piece of trim so that it is square to the opening and make the doors fit to that dimension. You can band the cabinet on three sides and it can add some visual interest while helping to make the opening square again.

I have some other thoughts but maybe one of these will spark an idea to try.

I forgot to try and answer your other question which is how to keep square during assembly... I use cheap aluminum or plastic speed squares that i notch out for clamps on opposite corners of the carcass. This will help keep it square until I can get the back on which I then glue and tack with a brad nailer in place after measuring to be sure both diagonal measurements are the same.

 

[Mr.Magoo]

Put a 1/4" hardboard or Melamine back on the cabinet cut to the dimension of your overall size, if you did not glue the face frames on you will be able to rack the thing straight. This will also help you with stability and keep things from falling out and critters from coming in. Good luck

 

[ChristopherLutz]

Thanks guys - unfortunately, everything is glued and the back is already 1/2 ply.

I'm now trying to cheat the eye by cutting the doors the same "out of square".

Lame, I know....but, I have too much invested to simply ditch the cabinet.

 

[porphyre]

Duker hit most of the high points, but I'm wondering why you didn't fix it w/ the face frame. That's what they're for, after all.

You said the cabinet was level, that leads me to believe the top and bottom pieces are parallel and the side pieces are not.... it's a parallelogram.

You should be able to cheat out the racking by making the end stiles of your face frame a bit overwide, then planing down to flush with the end boards of the cabinet. The interior of your face frame stays square, all the doors are square, etc. Just the outer styles are slightly different.

Considering everything's attached, applied moldings are going to be your only solution.

Cutting the doors out of square just seems like a horrible idea to me... sorry.

 

[Kevin54]

Thanks guys - unfortunately, everything is glued and the back is already 1/2 ply.

I'm now trying to cheat the eye by cutting the doors the same "out of square".

Lame, I know....but, I have too much invested to simply ditch the cabinet.

If your back is square, how is the cabinet racked? Or did you cut the cabinet back crooked? If you cut the back to match a racked cabinet, I'd pop the back off and square things, then fasten the back on again.

 

[GarageEnvy]

I guess I might be missing a few pieces of the puzzle but when you say 3/4" out, is that measuring the diagonals? If so, you might be only 3/8" out to even it up. Second, I'm not sure why your hinges will be at different depths on the frame unless you are mounting the hinges on the front of the frame. You mentioned you had more to build. Will these be attaching to this one? If so, you probably will need some fill strips. That's a pretty good size cabinet and it's easy to see where it can get off. Lastly, if these are just for the garage, I'd go ahead and cut the door "out of whack" too but if they're going inside, I'd probably agree with the others that it's a bad idea.

 

[jonese]

I'm curious what construction method you used. I just built a few cabinets with a kreg jig and I've never made anything like that before. If the cuts are made square and all the corners are square the end cabinet pretty much has to be square. Sorry I'm of no help I'm just wanting to avoid any mistakes I might make on future projects.

One thing you might be able to try: Maybe try putting one screw through the back at the bottom into a stud. Then pull the top of the cabinet to square and hold it there while you put another screw into a stud at the top.

 

[Tech Guy]

Post a pic ?

 

[ChristopherLutz]

I'll have a finished picture up tomorrow - I've taken several along the way, they are at the bottom of this post.

I appreciate the feedback - I know cutting the doors wonky is kludgy - but, since the whole thing is glued together - I'm sort of stuck with two choices:

1) make it work or
2) ditch $400 in materials and start over

At the end of the day - I don't believe 3/4 inch will be visible across a 4 foot run. The cabinet itself is 7 feet by 4 feet. - quite large and difficult to maneuver.

I was checking square along the way and was good until I put on the top. In retrospect, something must be off with that cut or the rabbets where that is sitting.

Part of the reason I posted is because I MUST have done something wrong in assembly and since I'll be building 2-3 more....I don't want to duplicate my problem(s).

I'm actually pretty happy with the result - considering it's my first cabinet.

I tried using corner clamps; however, they didn't seem to work with the rabbets - they pulled the corner apart.

I think the next one is going to be done with my Kreq joiner and maybe just a rabbet for the back. I'll have to think that through.

Working with 7 foot sides (3/4 inch plywood) is a bit difficult....I'm looking for some experienced tips.

To answer the face frame question from above - I didn't want to do that because the frame would then hang over the edge of the cabinet.

More tomorrow - I finished one of the doors and have attached the legs - if all goes well, I should have it up and in position by noon tomorrow. (If I can lift it)

 

[Conor]

I would OVERSIZE cut the doors square, overlay them and mount them so the edges hang over the sides of the cabinet by 1/8" or so at minimum....

then flush cut the edges with a router.

 

[Kevin54]

I may be wrong, but if you are off by 3/4" and you are using 3/4" ply, then you more than likely miscalculated when cutting your rabbets. I am guessing that for the shelves you cut into it by 3/8", but how did you cut the top? You didn't cut 3/8" on the side panel and then cut 3/8" on the top panel and pulled them together did you? I can really tell the details by the pics shown.

Another thing, how did you rip the wood down? Table saw or circular saw? If it was by a table saw, double check your fence to make sure it is square, or parallel with your blade.

Lastly, go back to the cabinet you built and double check all of your shelves. Look at the depth of the Dado's, then double check the rabbets at the top and bottom. I'm guessing that is where you got racked was when you did the rabbet joints. I bet you'll find that the top is out 3/8" per side vs. the length of the shelves.

 

[darkk]

I think on a cabinet that size, it wouldn't be to difficult to square up. You should also make a couple small squaring jigs for the remaining cabinets to keep square while assembling.

 

[Macgyver_ga]

One tip for future assembly. Well two tips...

First, Make sure your cuts are EXACT for parallel pieces. I.e. your top and bottom pieces should be exactly the same length. Otherwise you'll end up out of square. Cut your boards together if you have to.

Second, One thing I do when building cabinets is I pull it square, check, and double check with a framing square, then tack a scrap piece of wood to the front of the frame (opposite side of backer panel) at a diagonal. For example, one at the top right corner and one at the bottom left corner. This will hold the cabinet square while you tack the backer panel on.

 

[Duker]

Chris, after seeing your construction photos I think I can see how you got out of square. It doesn't look like you have a dado for the back but instead rested on the cleats you put across the back. An 1/8th of an inch out of square on the back means you could easily have a 3/4" rack along 84" of one side. My guess is you attached the back but didn't measure the diagonal sections. If you did then I am guessing there was enough play between the carcass and the back that when you went to stand it up it skewed to one side or it was racked when you put each shelf in and each one reinforced being out of square. On the next cabinet I would use a clamping jig of angle iron or as I mentioned earlier use the cheap speed squares which keep it square and don't intrude with construction. I also tend to use dados for the sides and back as it makes a stronger carcass but also aides in squaring up the carcass. However, it is more time consuming on the initial set up and you need to have a table saw with a dado set or a router.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

Buy the 3 way adjustable hinges and use them to set up the doors so it don't look like poop.

 

[pist0lpete]

I'm a cabinet maker's apprentice at our family shop, so I'll share our production method...

1. As mentioned previously, all components must be consistently cut and square.

2. We then assemble the four walls of the cabinet. (top, bottom, left, right) We use biscuit joinery.

3. At this point we rack em up just like MacGyver showed. (Great little illustration) Then attach your (square) back and you have a square cabinet.

4. I would add the shelves last. If your cabinet is square and your dadoes too, this should be easy, although we biscuit our fixed shelves it's probably not necessary.

 

[Macgyver_ga]

Buy the 3 way adjustable hinges and use them to set up the doors so it don't look like poop.

I almost exclusively only use the adjustable "euro style" hinges. It helps get the gaps/reveals perfect. You can buy them for both face frame, and frameless cabinets. You can also choose different overlay widths.

One thing I forgot to mention is I like to cut my backer panel dimensions about 1/4 smaller on both sides than the cabinet width & height. This leaves you some wiggle room when attaching the backer panel and it also prevents you from seeing it from the side unless you look very closely. I also glue my backer panels and use a 1/4 narrow crown stapler to attach them.

 

[ChristopherLutz]

All,

Many, many thanks for the time you've taken to illustrate - that helps " a lot". Well, the cabinet is finished and it's workable - but, will always bug me.

As far as forensics go....I determined that my dados for the shelves were/are off somehow. (I "clarked it"....that's how)

I think I also goofed the by trying to get too tricky with the dado's and rebates on my first attempt. Another expensive life lesson.

Fortunately, my wife "loves" the look...so, I have approval to proceed

I actually think I made all of the mistakes above during the build...so, it's difficult to pin point why it's off.

I want the next one to be bullet proof. "Sturdy" is important to me.

So, I have some context points and a couple of questions...assuming I'm not wearing you guys out.

- I don't have a table saw. I've been using a skill saw with a clamping guide. (I know some folks will say this is the problem...

- I do have a router, that I've used to make the dados and rabbets.

- On this first build, I tried to rabbet the top of each side piece so that it concealed the top and bottom portions of the cabinet. I don't think I'm going to do this anymore as it's time consuming and I believe it's part of my problem (incidentally, I don't seem to be able to find a 22/32 rabbet....which is what I would need for this undersized plywood)

- I also have a Kreg system. and 4 Irwin corner clamps.

I think for the next one, I'm going to set the top (and bottom) on the ends of the sides, clamp (as pictured above) and use screws and glue. Do you guys think this will be strong enough?

 

[Hawk]

Go to Amazon and punch in 22/32 rabbet bit and you will find what you are looking for. I purchased mine elsewhere but paid much more for a Freud bit. Amazon's should work great for what you are looking to do.

 

[rippered]

I don't bother to find the exact size router bit, just make two passes with a smaller one. My dado jig is a long slot, kind of like having a straight edge for both sides of the dado. Makes for a nice tight dado.

 

[ChristopherLutz]

Interesting - I have a 22/32 dado - I can't find a 22/32 rabbet. (even using amazon).

Rippered...how do make two passes? My bits have wheels that guide/limit the depth of the cut....

can you send a link or name of your router slot/guide?

 

[Duker]

Chris, make a jig for your router like the following links. One is a GJ and the other a web link. Make a quick jig the width of your cabinet sides and you will be able to knock out those cabinets in no time. The beauty of this jig is along as your measurements are correct you will get consistent results as its a no brainer to line up the cuts. A couple of clamps and you are good to go. If the bit you have is too small then move the jig and repeat. If you are going to be building a lot of cabinets or do additional woodworking in the future you can build a more permanent jig with 80/20 (http://www.8020.net/) components to make it adjustable for length and width.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135053
http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/etip102700wb.html

 

[pist0lpete]

I think for the next one, I'm going to set the top (and bottom) on the ends of the sides, clamp (as pictured above) and use screws and glue. Do you guys think this will be strong enough?

Yep. Three inch screws have balls. With back and face frame youll be good to go!

 

[mjozefow]

I'm a finish carpenter and I can say that you have done the most important step...you made a cabinet!

The next one will be better. One thing I try to do on every project is write down what I learned. Even if it is on a scrap of paper/drywall/wood. You will make a mistake on every job. The trend should go in a generally downward direction (note I said generally).

 

[Macgyver_ga]

All,

I think for the next one, I'm going to set the top (and bottom) on the ends of the sides, clamp (as pictured above) and use screws and glue. Do you guys think this will be strong enough?

This is just my opinion and logic but I like to attach the sides to the top and bottom pieces (Think stile and rail). I feel like the screws will have more strength and don't run the risk of getting pulled out by the downward weight of anything in the cabinet. When I build a cabinet, I glue, clamp, and temporarily fasten with Brad nails then once it's square and I've attached the backer panel, I drill all my holes (with a counter sink bit), then come back and fasten all the screws (using pocket hole screws where I don't want the screw holes visible). I don't remove my clamps until after I've set all of the screws.