Woodworkers, old school hand tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

[BioNerd]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Coping is used extensively with crown. You like coping? Get a Collins coping foot for your jig saw. No need to be hacking away with a hand saw. Dress your cuts with an angle grinder with a sanding disc mounted.

I've not done crown. I've coped for base and other details in casings but we have a couple of guys that loooove doing crown. I'm hoping to have the chance to learn that part of trimming soon. When I cope, I cut 45 and use the grinder with a sand disk. It's real quick.

I think the owners decide who does what in terms of efficiency and profit.
I get hardware, baseboard, doors, casing...

 

[Modern Jess]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Fein tool for that would be a mess. It took like 8 strokes from that hand saw. I have a fein tool, but this is a door that is already painted.

This. I have an oscillating tool (Multi-Max) and use it where appropriate. But I also have a couple of Japanese-style pull saws that are remarkably quick with very fine kerfs. It's astonishing how rapid they can cut something -- faster sometimes than a power tool, and certainly faster than the time it takes to get it out of the blow-mold case and plug it in.

Don't get me wrong, I like power tools, and apply them where necessary. But to say that hand tools have no place or are always a bad choice is just idiocy. Seriously, snap the @#$% out of it. There are other alternatives.

 

[BioNerd]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

This. I have an oscillating tool (Multi-Max) and use it where appropriate. But I also have a couple of Japanese-style pull saws that are remarkably quick with very fine kerfs. It's astonishing how rapid they can cut something -- faster sometimes than a power tool, and certainly faster than the time it takes to get it out of the blow-mold case and plug it in.

Don't get me wrong, I like power tools, and apply them where necessary. But to say that hand tools have no place or are always a bad choice is just idiocy. Seriously, snap the @#$% out of it. There are other alternatives.

^yup.

I have 3 different blades for that saw, a folding rip saw and a flush cut saw know as dowel cutter or something.

 

[Modern Jess]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

I'm just astonished at the mentality around here -- that if it doesn't have a 437 giga-amp motor on it, that it doesn't merit being used. That's just utter nonsense, from grown men who should know better (or maybe just need to go back to shop class).

 

[PugetDude]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Lol! Sorry if I sounded rude, I'm actually trying to be funny.

Try again.

You ask a question and then launch an argument with anyone who disagrees with your self-promoting premise. The idea that you're more efficient with a sack of nails, a hammer and a nailset than a guy with a properly adjusted finish nailer is laughable. If that was the case you wouldn't find an air hose or a power cord anywhere on a jobsite. Don't get me wrong, hand tools still have their place. I enjoy using a sharp block plane when I need to take a red hair or two off. A freshly honed chisel on difficult end grain is something everyone should experience at least once in their lifetime. I own and use "little japanese saws", too. They comes in handy for cutting off shims, a quick cutoff on thin stock, notching, etc, but I'm not perched on a stepstool trying to run a houseful of trim with one, looking down my nose at the guys using a chopsaw and a jigsaw with a coping foot.

Power tools evolved to improve the efficiency and productivity of hand tools, not entirely replace them. You can't crosscut a 2x12 as fast with a handsaw as you can with a skilsaw or surface that same board as fast with a hand plane as you can with a surface planer. Same for drilling holes, driving screws, pounding nails, Next time you need to drill a hole in a slab to anchor a wall, grab a star drill and a drilling hammer and see how that pays. Hell, you might as well go ahead mix the slab in a wheelbarrow with a hoe while you're feeling so productive.

Equating power tools with poor workmanship is disingenuous, IMO. I'm sure the hacks you like to draw your comparisons too would still be hacks if you traded tools with them. Power and hand tools each have their "best uses" which varies from task to task and job to job. Until the zombie apocalypse takes out the power grid, I'll continue to use a mix of both where they're most applicable, thank you.

If the evolution of tool technology fills you with loathing, maybe you should show up on your next jobsite like this; just think how efficient you would be and what high-quality work you could turn out!

 

[Modern Jess]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Seems to me that the OP asked about hand tools and was immediately accosted by a bunch of puffed-up power tool boys who were offended that anyone would use a hand tool. Tool choice is a *personal* choice, and OP is free to pick the tools he feels comfortable or productive with.

So take a step back before you hurt yourself with your misplaced righteousness.

 

[Modern Jess]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

I just re-read the beginning of the thread to make sure I wasn't imagining things. Looks to me like the first punch was thrown in post #4, and the tone of the thread went downhill from there.

Guess who the author of post #4 was...

 

[PugetDude]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

To al the ego trippers and chest puffers:

Lol! I bet I'm quicker to run trim than most of u fools.

I'm already quicker than my coworkers, way quicker.

I hung 12 doors, in the time he hung 3.....

I live in Oakland CA, and I can walk my words anytime.

Looks like you found your target audience.

 

[Modern Jess]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Looks like you found your target audience.

Looks like you disregarded post #4:

Why would you want to maually pound nails or drive screws. both of which take 3x as long and are a lot more work to cover up when finishing ???

Nothing personal, but I'd throw you off the jobsite if you showed up with a stepstool, a little japanese saw, and a sack of finish nails to do a trim-out.

Seriously, that's plain rude, and it was clearly the catalyst for later comments. OP asked about hand tools. Answer the question or move on.

 

[ggoss]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Getting back to the OP's question: a well-burnished card scraper (also known as a cabinet scraper) is an incredible pleasure to use. It may not be able to turn wood into a pile of dust like a handheld belt sander can, but it beats the hell out of hand sanding (with any grit) in terms of speed (and possibly even a random orbit sander depending on grit), it doesn't gum-up, and it leaves pretty much the smoothest finish you can get. Plus, if you buy a set of card scrapers and a burnisher (total investment of maybe $40), you may never have to buy sandpaper for hand-sanding wood again.

 

[Jim C.]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

I'm not a professional woodworker/cabinet maker/trim carpenter, but I have done a lot of those things out of necessity, and for enjoyment. I do use hand tools all the time. I like the fact that BioNerd sees a value in using hand tools when it's practical and efficient. There are some things that hand tools can do better than power tools. In a professional setting, where time is money, I guess the quality of the end product and time consumed in producing that product will determine the value of hand tools versus power tools and the worth of the craftsman doing the the job. All that being said, after reviewing some of BioNerd's quotes as collected and posted in response #48 above, I'd just recommend that adding a small dose of humility at this point may outweigh the need for more productive hand tools. Generally, a superior finished product needs no comment from the craftsman who did the work.

Jim C.

 

[kc-steve]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

I'm not a woodworker but I have always viewed woodworking as an art form. I did have "Industrial Arts" back in high school, the keyword is "arts." It used to be that even construction workers started out as apprentices making their own tool box and sawhorses as their first initiations.

I would guess the primary difference here is whether someone is in production and construction, or into actual woodworking. We should all be interested in what someone has to say about the lost arts that are nearly gone.

Steve

 

[pauls_workshop]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

While we are on this topic, what are some good, value conscious choices for a hand scraper or burnisher to use? What would people recommend who have used these? Also what Japanese or precision saws do people like to use? thx- Paul

 

[ctb]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

I A power planer produces a super nice finish if well set up that is superior to any hand planed finish I've ever seen and in a fraction of the time.

Zeke. That's just plain wrong. While it may look good to the eye, looking a bit closer will reveal small ripples in the workpiece similar to that produced by those big 12" portable planers. You can't get around that, it's the nature of the rotating cutterhead.

A decent sharp handplane will leave a surface that is totally flat, even under magnification.

Try power planing a small glued up panel, say 1x2 feet and there's no way you can leave a perfectly smooth surface. However for a handplane that's a couple minute job with a surface that needs no sanding after.

 

[Modern Jess]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

Also what Japanese or precision saws do people like to use? thx- Paul

I use the Westernized knock-offs. Irwin and Shark make some plastic-handled pull saws -- widely available at the big box stores -- that have thin, flexible blades with teeth in the pull orientation. If I was doing real woodworking (i.e. dovetails and such) I would probably invest in a high-quality authentic Japanese hand made pull-saw -- probably a Dozuki type. As it is, I mostly need it for trim and small cuts, so the bastardized version from Irwin is sufficient. It's an easy way to try out the concept without being heavily invested in the tooling. And really, they are incredibly more effective than traditional Western push-saws.

 

[PugetDude]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

While we are on this topic... what Japanese or precision saws do people like to use? thx- Paul

Makita.
(Sorry, couldn't resist... )

Look at japanwoodworker.com - they have a great selection of quality Japanese-style hand saws- dozuki, ryoba, and kataba.
traditonal woodworker.com also carries them.

And the bix box stores like Agent Orange and Big Blue carry a few westernized versions- Japanese pull-style teeth, but with molded plastic handles.

I've got a few of these saws, find that I use my little Vaughn Bear Saw the most-for cutting into corners when finishing notches, etc. It's also great for cutting ABS pipe when you're wedged into a sink base cabinet....

 

[BioNerd]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

My mistake is to address people with useless input. Then they can use what I said to defend myself to keep punching and talking ****. I take pride on my work and productivity, I did let myself bite the bait and argue back accusations that were putting me down without proof.
That is my fault.

Whatever... I will ignore.

----

I like the idea of card scrapers. I will try them, my boss has a ton of hand tools, so I'm going to ask him to borrow a set.

Today I was making and hanging custom door jambs,I used a jack plane to erase saw marks and reduce the sanding time. I can see how this will benefit the process.

This new site doesn't have much work that is handtool friendly for now. There will be some scribing, but later on.

 

[strutaeng]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

OP, you are right: most people here have the "Tim the Toolman" mentality. If you have already done so, browse Lumberjocks and Sawmill Creek for hand tool aficionados.

I have switched to hand tools in the last 3 years. Previously I had the New Yankee Workshop mentality (brought to you by Delta-Porter Cable-Dewalt...whatever)

I switched to handtools because they only thing that I built were plywood boxes. Since then, I have made some masterpieces! I did still use some power tools, but the joinery was all handcut (dovetails, mortise and tenon, etc.) My craftsmanship has gone through the roof. I'm actually making stuff that is quality! Honestly, I can probably put to shame some dudes with a workshop full of $20k machines!

Back to the subject: a card scraper is a wonderful tool for handling difficult grain. I may also recommend Chris Swarchz and Adam Cherubini from Popular Woodworking for rediscovering the use of woodworking handtools.

Do you build furniture on the side? It sounds like your craftsmanship is on par with fine furnituremaking.

 

[BioNerd]

I've done some, an entertainment center and a couple of vanities. Nothing fancy tho.
I was offered to make a couple of tables for and architect I met the other day, but I'm really jammed with work, my cars, chores, my son and my wife.

I will check out those sites, sounds fun!

I'm mainly leaving woodwork for my 40hr/week job, I'm just trying to be more efficient by thinking a bit out of the box and trying out alternative methods.

 

[ggoss]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

While we are on this topic, what are some good, value conscious choices for a hand scraper or burnisher to use? What would people recommend who have used these? Also what Japanese or precision saws do people like to use? thx- Paul

I believe that both my card scraper set and burnisher are from Crown Tools (of England). Both are available on Amazon. I've been very happy with them so far (keep the scrapers oiled so that they don't rust).

 

[pauls_workshop]

Thanks guys for giving some suggestions above. And also KUDOS to the OP for starting this thread. While highly controversial to those used to power tools only, as a woodworker type I like your moxie in trying out more traditional methods. Some times I'd like to take Norm and drop him off onto a 3rd world secluded site with wood available like on the Naked and Afraid show, but give him some clothes and food and a very basic set of hand tools, some nails, and glue, and ask him to make some worthy furniture projects from scratch. Don't let him leave till he makes 5 pieces! I don't think he would fare as well as people might think! - Paul

 

[Tucko]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

I prefer to judge someone's work by their work. I would have thought this would be an obvious way to do it, but maybe I'm missing something.

Or maybe I'm not.

Jess, I see your point. However, should you have to pay to find out what someone's work is like? Imagine taking your scooter into First Kick and seeing the mechanic surrounded by a pile of crappy Harbor Freight tools. Would you be comfortable with that?

 

[BioNerd]

Woodworkers, old school hand tools that can realistically replace powertools ...

Today, my boss visited the site while I was making jambs. I had to rip some of them to size, therefore I had saw marks.
I pulled my cheap but "skillfully tuned" HF #33 and erased those marks with a couple of passes.
I asked him input about using the aforementioned scrapers. He suggested these planes and sent me an email with the link: http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=54862&cat=1,41182,48945&ap=1

Both owners are aware of the advantage of using certain handtools when the circumstances are appropriate.

His son is been working for us for about a month, he is green. And I feel very honored that I've been training him. It's their choice.

Now, I was thinking to design and make a wooden version of those planes that could hold a 1" chisel as an iron. I really only need them for stock under 1" thick.

Suggestions?

 

[BioNerd]

Thanks for correcting the thread title! I just realized!

 

[BioNerd]

Woodworkers, old school hand tools that can realistically replace powertools ...

Jess, I see your point. However, should you have to pay to find out what someone's work is like? Imagine taking your scooter into First Kick and seeing the mechanic surrounded by a pile of crappy Harbor Freight tools. Would you be comfortable with that?

I would like to give you some perspective

your comment seems to be referring to a new worker or company's that shows up first time to a site. I guess if you knew a really skilled tradesman that doesn't have money to buy expensive equipment but you know you can trust him to do exceptional work, things will be different.

The company I work for has a good reputation. Some of us have really expensive tools, some don't. The company has expensive tools, we use them.

For example, we recently have worked installing gold leafed trim at the legion of honor in SF. There is lots of pictures and recommendations for our clients to look at.

Our bosses speak highly about our skills to a new superintendent if they don't know us.

Some superintendents are always asking us to work for them TnM. So, even though we all have different paces, we are efficient and professional.

So, we don't need to show off tools. We show off skill. I'm sure that if we were out in a situation where we had to work with HF tools only, we will still be as good, but the tools will not last.

There are reasons why I'm broke now that I find irrelevant to share here, my company pays me well but I have many expenses and responsibilities.

And lastly, this thread is about using hand tools in situations where they could be more effective than powertools. Somehow that was twisted into using crappy tools... Lets get something straight here: Quality handtools are not inferior to quality powertools. They have similar but different purposes when it comes to professional use.
Now, if its done for hobby or passion, we all know to be more likely to pull the plug, aren't we?

 

[Jim C.]

Re: Woodworkers, old school hand tools that can realistically replace powertools ...

Today, my boss visited the site while I was making jambs. I had to rip some of them to size, therefore I had saw marks.
I pulled my cheap but "skillfully tuned" HF #33 and erased those marks with a couple of passes.
I asked him input about using the aforementioned scrapers. He suggested these planes and sent me an email with the link: http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=54862&cat=1,41182,48945&ap=1

Both owners are aware of the advantage of using certain handtools when the circumstances are appropriate.

His son is been working for us for about a month, he is green. And I feel very honored that I've been training him. It's their choice.

Now, I was thinking to design and make a wooden version of those planes that could hold a 1" chisel as an iron. I really only need them for stock under 1" thick.

Suggestions?

If you want to make a plane from wood, then check out this book:

"Making and Mastering Wood Planes" by David Finck

It was published by Sterling Publishing in 2000. It's a great book that takes a reader through the step by step process of making a plane from wood. There's plenty of illustrations and photos. The instructions are presented in a simple, easy to understand format. I really like this book. If you've never tried making a wooden plane from scratch, this book is a good starting point.

Jim C.

 

[ctb]

Re: Woodworkers, old school hand tools that can realistically replace powertools ...

Now, I was thinking to design and make a wooden version of those planes that could hold a 1" chisel as an iron. I really only need them for stock under 1" thick.Suggestions?

Go to a flea market and pick up an old wooden rabbet plane. If you feel you need a fence you can easily screw one to the side of the plane. Or find one on flea bay.

 

[BioNerd]

A rabbet plane?

 

[Mavawreck]

I have a set of the crown scrapers and burnisher. Amazon prime has the best price typically, but I bought a brand new set wicked cheap off of ebay. I haven't used them yet, just arrived last week!

One of the things I'm interested in doing is reducing my sand paper consumption. The junk is expensive and wasteful. In some cases it cant be avoided, but I'd like to use a lot less.

 

[BioNerd]

I have a set of the crown scrapers and burnisher. Amazon prime has the best price typically, but I bought a brand new set wicked cheap off of ebay. I haven't used them yet, just arrived last week!

One of the things I'm interested in doing is reducing my sand paper consumption. The junk is expensive and wasteful. In some cases it cant be avoided, but I'd like to use a lot less.

Not just that, sandpaper is not very precise and rather time consuming sometimes.

 

[Gmonkee]

A while back I looked at a bunch of pictures of planes and got a few detail specs about the -average- plane.

I decided mine will use a 2" Stanley iron and have a body made of cedar. No solid reasons other than it is the best I can get on short notice.
A couple of days ago I made the final adjustments and it started making shavings. And this is my first serious attempt to use any plane ever.

Youtube is rife with videos on how to make a plane and it appears that the major differences are cosmetic or ergonomic related. The 45º angle on the frog and getting the sole properly flat are where it really counts.

The cedar uses a bolt clamp to fix the blade, my next one will be wedge fixed as it makes a simpler design.
That wedge is where I would suggest to start, if you get that one to work the next will be much easier.

 

[tsbrewers]

Not much to add really, but I been a carpenter for about 25 years, with about 15 specializing in finish carpentry. I guess one thing that struck me was the statement about setting up in the middle and working. When I am on a job each one of my guys has his own setup. So there are days when I have 6 or 7 full setups including Mitersaws, stands, compressors, etc. spread out all over. about the only thing we sometimes share are the compressors. So the guy doing cabinets has his setup close, the guy doing the rails, has his close, etc.

you are correct in the idea that you save most time by cutting trips to the saw. When I am trimming a normal picture frame window, I cut all 4 pieces in one trip to the saw. The top gets cut dead on, sides and bottom a little long. Nail top piece, fit sides and cut both in one more trip, install then fit bottom.

Same with base, I will measure an entire home, or at least a few rooms at a time then go cut all them in one shot. Spread the trim and install. Everything gets coped where possible. I personally use a dewalt jig saw to cope. Use a bosch with the collin's foot for crown, etc.

Last company I worked, it was kinda a joke that I wouldn't use a tool without a tail or a battery. So no, I am not big on hand tools, but do have a few that gets used frequently.

 

[BioNerd]

I just started on a job where it's about speed. We were asked to not assemble the casings with biscuits before installing.

So, while doing some jamb extensions, the super saw me scribing them. He asked:
How are you gonna scribe them, you have some sort of a jig?

I said, with a number four.

He walked away and came back while I has checking a rough opening with a plumb bob. He said: early on I realized you new your trade when you said "a number four", then i see you using a plumb bob... You look young but you use hand tools... That's good.

I said: well, my levels are all the way to the other side of the house, sometimes reaching for a hand tool in my caddy is way faster than cruising to get something else or setting up an extension cord.

He said: Thank you man, finally someone else that thinks alike. I'm glad you are here. Not all guys know that.

Awesome, right? I love positive input.


I always carry a folding japanese hand saw and I use it to cut to rough length from the pile to bring to the miter saw or something. But... I just got my new M12 fuel hacksaw... I got it for that reason mainly.

 

[brass89]

I've started looking into hand tools more for hobby, but after watching some pros with hand tools I think some of it boils down to what you're familiar with. Unless it's a hobby/passion, and unless it's truly an inferior tool (such as a power saw with a lot of play that causes poor cuts) the end product is the end product. Kind of like a bolt that doesn't know whether it was tightened with a S/O or HF.

Pro's tend to prefer better tools but usually due to longevity on the job. Not because a name brand ratchet tightens all its' bolts crooked. That's user error.

The old school guys impress me with how fast they can do some things with hand tools. Sometimes hand tools in the hands of a skilled craftsman are more accurate. Rather than running back for a sander or some sort of saw, a block plane can easily peel enough off to get the needed clearance on doors/frames or the like. If it's for a home project (not a 9-5) then hand tools can not only be efficient alternatives but much quieter for use in a residential garage especially after hours.

 

[Fretters]

If it's for a home project (not a 9-5) then hand tools can not only be efficient alternatives but much quieter for use in a residential garage especially after hours.

You have better feedback, more control on occasion, less degree of mess, subtlety etc. with hand tools too. Take the control point. One example; A hand powered drill with a countersink bit. You can count the exact revolutions you do to get the depth nigh on perfect instead of just pressing and releasing a trigger and hoping as with a power drill.

Personally, I'm more of a hand tool person who uses power tools when I must, or when it's simple common sense to do so.

 

[lilredex]

A couple of rabbet planes from my toolbox. These are special as they came from a family estate in England. Could easily be over a hundred years old.

 

[thor80]

I love woodworking hand tools, I haven't walked past a nice one at a swap meet in 15 years, have a pretty decent collection between my dad and I, he's a luthier and uses mostly hand tools. I used to use them a bit on the jobsite. When I started my own company and answer to time frames they became a bit of a luxury. I still carry a good set of chisels and low angle block plane for little trims. It's funny when I used to work for a company my boss hated to see me with a hand plane, he used to tell me if it didn't have cord he didn't want to see me using it. I used to tell him I was going to glue a cord on the broom so it would be ok to use.

When it comes to the quality tool debate, in theory I think a craftsman should be judged by his work and not his tools, in practice I don't know one person who I respect as a good craftsman who rocks cheap tools. I think over time as one sees how much easier the work is with good tools you just end up with the good stuff. I buy festool/makita/dewalt, every time I buy something else it seems to let me down.

 

[Adam.C]

My suggestions:
Block plane
Cabinet scraper - you can make these out of scrap spring steel I like small ones like 1x2"
sharp 1" chisel
1/2" or 5/8" round plane (moulding plane) for rounding over stock
Side Bead plane (molding plane)
Tongue and Grover plane (super fast)
Lee valley small router plane
Japanese flush cut saw

 

[jrcampbe]

Re: Woodworkers, old school had tools that can realistically replace powertools i...

While we are on this topic, what are some good, value conscious choices for a hand scraper or burnisher to use? What would people recommend who have used these? Also what Japanese or precision saws do people like to use? thx- Paul

You can make your own for next to nothing from an old saw plate. Cut it into the shape you want, usually a rectangle, but you can use curved ones for moulding profiles. Use a file to "joint" the cutting edge to make it perfectly straight.

How you "sharpen" a card scraper is you burnish over the edge so it makes a burr like a little microscopic "hook", kind of like peining. First, use a very flat sharpening hone on the flats (not the edge yet) and rub the flats to remove any old burr or imperfection. You can also use fine sandpaper on a marble tile. Second, hold the scraper perfectly perpendicular to the sandpaper and do the working edge. Then rub the sides again. What you're after is a perfectly square edge. Now you put the burr on it using a burnisher, but the shaft of a screwdriver will work too. Rub the screwdriver shaft or burnisher along the edge pushing firmly. What this does is rounds over the nice square corners you just made into the hook-shaped burr along the entire edge.

Use it but flexing slightly to stiffen and at a slight angle to the work (not quite vertical). You won't believe the surface that a card scraper will put on wood! Far better than any sand paper.

This is all super easy. Much harder to describe in a post than to actually do.

Jim

 

[woody 73]

I thought the op would enjoy the following video, it is not fast moving but still fun to watch.