1/2 Cup
Member Emeritus
Dennis, that's one serious renovation..
Looking forward to seeing how it come up..
Regards
Looking forward to seeing how it come up..
Regards
Between 265 & 485 SQ/FT Woody's Works Garage
- Thread starter Denwood
- Start date
Workspaces sized between 265 and 485 squarefeet.
G20-Budo
Well-known member
Kyle, the ventless heat pump dryer is about 75% more efficient than the typical hot air version, so it will further reduce our carbon footprint. Decongesting the rear entry really scores high on the wife approval rating.
Drives, the house is at a high elevation and on well drained soil, so thankfully no water issues. I'm making a few design/HVAC changes to increase basement circulation in summer. The Panasonic spot ERV I installed last year dumps fresh air into the basement staiwell. Those changes have really made the basement just as comfortable as floor 1 or 2.
Dennis,
Good stuff!! 75% more efficient? Damn!!!
That's awesome!To relocate and organize for the media room, a few other minor items to address.
This area is a cramped disaster...addressed in the work in pic 2.
This area is to be completely re tasked. All you see here is being removed.
Because the furnace is now condensing high efficiency, and the large hot water tank replaced with a very compact on-demand unit, there is a lot of space to harvest. The brick chimney is no longer used, so will be exposed in my computer area/office nook for a bit of character
I like the idea of exposing the brick chimney in your work office area. But I gotta say, that first pic is a tricky one.. With, is it you?, on the other side of the wall.. confused me.
This is bad assed.. I'm looking forward to seeing more!
Kyle, that's me but via a mirrored bifold door..neat effect
1/2, half the battle is planning. Once the engines start, it goes quick!
I've found a very easy 3D tool (surprisingly powerful!) to help explain my ideas to the Missus at: http://www.eurostyle-kitchen.com/3d-planner/
This company sells cabinets to Home Depot, and provides an amazingly user friendly 3D design tool online. This one took maybe 5 minutes. Every element (other than their cabinets) can be resized and precisely located. I used IKEA's for the shop visualisation, but EuroStyle's is better.
The wall cabinets at the right and left of the shop are basically Home Depot flat packs, from the same company. They are the least expensive cabinets they sell. Given how loaded they are, I'd say they've held up well.
1/2, half the battle is planning. Once the engines start, it goes quick!
I've found a very easy 3D tool (surprisingly powerful!) to help explain my ideas to the Missus at: http://www.eurostyle-kitchen.com/3d-planner/
This company sells cabinets to Home Depot, and provides an amazingly user friendly 3D design tool online. This one took maybe 5 minutes. Every element (other than their cabinets) can be resized and precisely located. I used IKEA's for the shop visualisation, but EuroStyle's is better.
The wall cabinets at the right and left of the shop are basically Home Depot flat packs, from the same company. They are the least expensive cabinets they sell. Given how loaded they are, I'd say they've held up well.
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G20-Budo
Well-known member
Bob Heine
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Dennis, we haven't had a basement for more than 40 years but I remember the good times we had in our "finished" basement in Wappingers Falls, NY. I offer this story as a cautionary tale, exposing things you should avoid. These pictures are circa 1969-70 (history buffs might see how I can date it).
I used 2x3" studs in the perimeter (non-structural) walls to get "every square inch" of usable space. The forced air duct section of the ceiling gave us that same 6'6" (maybe less) headroom. Had to use indoor/outdoor carpet on the concrete floor so we didn't lose more headroom. Lighting is "faux" troffer. I wanted mood lighting so each clear panel in the ceiling hides two plain porcelain fixtures with incandescent bulbs. A high-tech rotary dimmer controlled the lighting.
This pre-dates Disco but the orange wall and the paisley staircase ceiling leading into the basement give it that Woodstock vibe. Had to buy two additional rolls because this one-armed paper hanger tried to save money by using pre-pasted wallpaper without additional paste. I will never again own a home with a staircase. I'm pretty sure my wife wouldn't ask me to do another staircase ceiling but I'm not taking any chances.
I made most of the doors, using the same printed Masonite "Wood-Look" paneling to cover the 2"x2" frames. The same paneling covered the bar we salvaged from Town Cleanup night.
We didn't call it a "Media Room" back then but we did have a big-screen TV (21")...
...and a Surround Sound (Stereo?) system.
That accordion door (ran out of paneling) in the first picture led to our state-of-the-art laundry room. We had an AUTOMATIC washer and dryer (instead of the wringer washer and clothesline dryer of our previous home). I focused on the laundry equipment but that flowery contact paper on the right covers the rust stains and slight pitting on the 17-cubic foot frost-free freezer that someone threw out when the pilot light in the door shorted to the case. "We don't need no stinking pilot light!!!" The wood on the wall held closet rods to hang my "drip-dry, no-iron" dress shirts. I was saving up for shelving to finish it off.
Beyond the pocket door at the far end of the 6'x8' laundry room lurked my completely unfinished 8'x8' basement workshop. A single bulb fluorescent fixture over the workbench supplemented the natural light from the window above.
Dennis, I will be watching your progress with great interest. On the off-chance your wife or children see these pictures and think there's a good idea there, just let me know. I'm pretty sure I can talk them out of it.
I used 2x3" studs in the perimeter (non-structural) walls to get "every square inch" of usable space. The forced air duct section of the ceiling gave us that same 6'6" (maybe less) headroom. Had to use indoor/outdoor carpet on the concrete floor so we didn't lose more headroom. Lighting is "faux" troffer. I wanted mood lighting so each clear panel in the ceiling hides two plain porcelain fixtures with incandescent bulbs. A high-tech rotary dimmer controlled the lighting.
This pre-dates Disco but the orange wall and the paisley staircase ceiling leading into the basement give it that Woodstock vibe. Had to buy two additional rolls because this one-armed paper hanger tried to save money by using pre-pasted wallpaper without additional paste. I will never again own a home with a staircase. I'm pretty sure my wife wouldn't ask me to do another staircase ceiling but I'm not taking any chances.
I made most of the doors, using the same printed Masonite "Wood-Look" paneling to cover the 2"x2" frames. The same paneling covered the bar we salvaged from Town Cleanup night.
We didn't call it a "Media Room" back then but we did have a big-screen TV (21")...
...and a Surround Sound (Stereo?) system.
That accordion door (ran out of paneling) in the first picture led to our state-of-the-art laundry room. We had an AUTOMATIC washer and dryer (instead of the wringer washer and clothesline dryer of our previous home). I focused on the laundry equipment but that flowery contact paper on the right covers the rust stains and slight pitting on the 17-cubic foot frost-free freezer that someone threw out when the pilot light in the door shorted to the case. "We don't need no stinking pilot light!!!" The wood on the wall held closet rods to hang my "drip-dry, no-iron" dress shirts. I was saving up for shelving to finish it off.
Beyond the pocket door at the far end of the 6'x8' laundry room lurked my completely unfinished 8'x8' basement workshop. A single bulb fluorescent fixture over the workbench supplemented the natural light from the window above.
Dennis, I will be watching your progress with great interest. On the off-chance your wife or children see these pictures and think there's a good idea there, just let me know. I'm pretty sure I can talk them out of it.
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Bret, I'd rather be restoring an old truck
Bob, that was one heck of a post. There was a whole lot of paneling going on there. I'm trying to avoid too much project creep as the urge to do a total gut is there.
More material was removed to allow adding a few new teleposts to the house main beam.
Most of the ducts are leaking, so some clean up and taping was called for. There are a few instances of asbestos pipe tape on a few joints so I'm sealing these in place.
Finally, I picked up a roll of duct liner to do some acoustic work on the house main air return. I'll also be building a few simple duct mufflers to install on the basement supply and return vents. Installing a home theater without doing some sound attenuation on the HVAC would be a mistake, particularly as I have full access right now.
The duct liner combined with 8" pipe and 8" to 5" reducers will be used similar to this illustration from billpentz.com:
Bob, that was one heck of a post. There was a whole lot of paneling going on there
. I'm trying to avoid too much project creep as the urge to do a total gut is there.More material was removed to allow adding a few new teleposts to the house main beam.
Most of the ducts are leaking, so some clean up and taping was called for. There are a few instances of asbestos pipe tape on a few joints so I'm sealing these in place.
Finally, I picked up a roll of duct liner to do some acoustic work on the house main air return. I'll also be building a few simple duct mufflers to install on the basement supply and return vents. Installing a home theater without doing some sound attenuation on the HVAC would be a mistake, particularly as I have full access right now.
The duct liner combined with 8" pipe and 8" to 5" reducers will be used similar to this illustration from billpentz.com:
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1/2 Cup
Member Emeritus
Dennis, , I am sure you are well aware of all things asbestos , make sure you keep those joints well sealed..
Regards
Regards
drivesitfar
Well-known member
Woody: i love all the details you post and think about. i know remodeling an old house has it's challenges, but you seem to take on every one with a smile and i think i actually saw your smile in a selfie via a mirror.
i need to quit making popcorn cause i only like it with lots of butter and i still need to loose a few pounds so i'll be sitting back in my chair eating some yogurt and salad and watching the progress.
BTW are the girls helping with the demo?
best of luck and have a great week.
i need to quit making popcorn cause i only like it with lots of butter and i still need to loose a few pounds so i'll be sitting back in my chair eating some yogurt and salad and watching the progress.
BTW are the girls helping with the demo?
best of luck and have a great week.
Drives, my brother, nephew and youngest daughter have been helping out where conditions allow. My youngest really enjoys pitching in. The old house "rabbit hole" is hard to avoid as every renovation generally exposes issues that are much easier to address when accessible. The goal is always to work to code as a minimum. There are a few floor joists that have been compromised by "hackers" in the past, so the new partition walls will end up load bearing. I'll raise these areas slightly with a teleport, take up load with structure, then remove the post.
1/2, I hear you on the asbestos tape. There are basically 7 joints wrapped with 1-2 inches of tape. The best scenario typically with a small amount like that is to seal it in place before disturbing anything, so this is the plan.
1/2, I hear you on the asbestos tape. There are basically 7 joints wrapped with 1-2 inches of tape. The best scenario typically with a small amount like that is to seal it in place before disturbing anything, so this is the plan.
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drivesitfar
Well-known member
Woody: i don't have to tell you to BEE CAREFUL when removing support posts and replacing them with a better system. what i can say from being around an old house or two and more than my share of builders that you need to raise the house slowly so you don't crack the sheet rock or maybe plaster and lathe in your case. i'm sure the minor crack fixing will be in your wheelhouse and the fix sounds AWESOME to create a much bigger space. those beams in the middle of garages and spaces really are tough to work or in your case maybe see around.
as a safety precaution something like putting jack stands under a car while you are using a hydraulic jack is to maybe have a couple 4x4's handy cut to length or even a 2x4 built wall to support the floor and house above when you are removing it. i know you probably know all this especially since i saw you raise the roof in your garage so i'm probably meaning this for the basic DIY guy wanting to remove a beam in his garage or home.
i also like the idea of encapsulating the Asbestos. WELL DONE!!
cheers and best of luck.
as a safety precaution something like putting jack stands under a car while you are using a hydraulic jack is to maybe have a couple 4x4's handy cut to length or even a 2x4 built wall to support the floor and house above when you are removing it. i know you probably know all this especially since i saw you raise the roof in your garage so i'm probably meaning this for the basic DIY guy wanting to remove a beam in his garage or home.
i also like the idea of encapsulating the Asbestos. WELL DONE!!
cheers and best of luck.
D, I've added two more teleposts to the existing ones on the main beam., so the transition was very much free of drama. I'll only lift a few compromised single joists slightly so the load bearing partitions will actually be loaded. It hasn't moved a wink in the last 19 yrs, however the floor and roof line show evidence of sag somewhere in the past.
When I first bought the house (it was a fixer with a lowball offer of $82000) the basement tenant had removed a few tele-posts to make more room..eeek.
When I first bought the house (it was a fixer with a lowball offer of $82000) the basement tenant had removed a few tele-posts to make more room..eeek.
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drivesitfar
Well-known member
WOODY: sounds like you've got everything under control and i'll just sit back and enjoy watching you finish another project. i did help my BIL install a new front door yesterday and only a few little trim pieces and paint and i can finally scratch that one off the to do list.
in case you don't wander much around GJ cause you are so busy i think this new thread WOODWORKING 101 could use a few of your videos and projects if you might have a few extra minutes to post some. as you know most schools (or attorneys) eliminated any shop classes so the younger generation might have to learn how to pound a nail from their grand dad since we have a high tech world now.
if you have time here's the link and would love to see some of your stuff and i posted up my pergola i just re stained that i built 4 years ago. hopefully it will gain some ground cause i love this forum and would like to see more skills shown that are more easily found by the masses that really do want to learn.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=344153
best of luck as usual with the basement. it seems like you never sleep so maybe get a few hours in. ok?
in case you don't wander much around GJ cause you are so busy i think this new thread WOODWORKING 101 could use a few of your videos and projects if you might have a few extra minutes to post some. as you know most schools (or attorneys) eliminated any shop classes so the younger generation might have to learn how to pound a nail from their grand dad since we have a high tech world now.
if you have time here's the link and would love to see some of your stuff and i posted up my pergola i just re stained that i built 4 years ago. hopefully it will gain some ground cause i love this forum and would like to see more skills shown that are more easily found by the masses that really do want to learn.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=344153
best of luck as usual with the basement. it seems like you never sleep so maybe get a few hours in. ok?
Attachments
One of the things I'm thrilled about Drives is that my daughter's school has a wood shop, mechanical garage, and welding shop. So she will for sure get some basic shop training. I will check out that thread..and you're right, it's been busy. Our new camera slider "Duzi 4" is just shipping and getting rave reviews from professional reviewers, customers and retailers. The order volume is accelerating and keeping myself and the team hopping.
Onward with the renovation. I had to do some plumbing to reroute a few drains, add a trap to our old laundry drain (its absence explains the weird smells every now and then in the laundry area!!) and address proper slope of our kitchen drain.
Because the basement will have some pretty serious audio, the number one concern is sound traveling through the ducts to other parts of the house, particularly upstairs bedrooms. The strategy has a few layers. First, I'm installing a few duct mufflers, building a few dead vents for supply/return in the basement, and finally lining the main supply and return trunks in the house with 1" acoustic duct liner.
I've tested sound levels at the two upstairs vents, checking them while generating an 84db pink noise signal from my computer speakers in the basement. You can buy duct mufflers, but my situation pretty much requires building them to fit. I designed a strangely similar header and muffler system for my Westfalia van's audio conversion engine, using two different sizes of straight thru stainless mufflers. These are super simple to make, and based on a few online specs, should cut sound levels up to 30 db, in the 1khz range (where voices are centered).
Fantech has some numbers posted for their 2 and 3 foot silencers:
For the 5" duct, I'm using an 8" pipe with 8" to 5" reducers at both ends. This should keep flow restriction very low. Step one is to cut the 8" duct material to size. Using a square and scribe makes for a nicer muffler.
I picked up a duct crimping tool to simplify pipe work, particularly for the mufflers.
This mesh will ensure the duct muffler stays at 5" internally.
The simple calculation of D * 3.14 gives you the wide of mesh to cut. I cut it as below to make it easy to join the mesh to form a 5" tube.
Wrapping in 1" duct liner. The liner is duct rated..the smooth side faces in to prevent loose fibers from circulating. I've also sealed the exposed fiber at both ends with duct sealer. This was a mistake cut on the duct liner..I ended up with a full wrap of two layers which keeps the mesh tube nicely centered in the muffler.
Partially assembled. I wrapped the 8" duct material over the core, and wrestled a bit to pop the pipe seam in place.
Duck sealer! This came from Brock White industrial supply locally. It's water based, duct rated, easy to apply (like thickened latex paint) and quick drying.
Sealing the joints.
Sealing both ends to ensure loose fibers cannot enter the air stream.
They're very fast to construct. The larger one is for the 5" duct heading upstairs, and the 4" ID muffler is to manage the supply (hot) air going to the basement bath. The larger muffler is 48" (as large as I could fit in the space) and the smaller one is about 28". If you basically yell into one, the sound level is reduced by at least 50%...surprisingly effetive. I've measure reference noise levels first, so will update as the HVAC sound project is completed.
With basement pink noise (from my PC speakers) generated at 84 db, I'm measuring 47db on the 2nd floor at vent 1, and 35db at vent 2.
While the duct sealer was curing, I snuck in a self leveling cement pour before tiling..
Onward with the renovation. I had to do some plumbing to reroute a few drains, add a trap to our old laundry drain (its absence explains the weird smells every now and then in the laundry area!!) and address proper slope of our kitchen drain.
Because the basement will have some pretty serious audio, the number one concern is sound traveling through the ducts to other parts of the house, particularly upstairs bedrooms. The strategy has a few layers. First, I'm installing a few duct mufflers, building a few dead vents for supply/return in the basement, and finally lining the main supply and return trunks in the house with 1" acoustic duct liner.
I've tested sound levels at the two upstairs vents, checking them while generating an 84db pink noise signal from my computer speakers in the basement. You can buy duct mufflers, but my situation pretty much requires building them to fit. I designed a strangely similar header and muffler system for my Westfalia van's audio conversion engine, using two different sizes of straight thru stainless mufflers. These are super simple to make, and based on a few online specs, should cut sound levels up to 30 db, in the 1khz range (where voices are centered).
Fantech has some numbers posted for their 2 and 3 foot silencers:
For the 5" duct, I'm using an 8" pipe with 8" to 5" reducers at both ends. This should keep flow restriction very low. Step one is to cut the 8" duct material to size. Using a square and scribe makes for a nicer muffler.
I picked up a duct crimping tool to simplify pipe work, particularly for the mufflers.
This mesh will ensure the duct muffler stays at 5" internally.
The simple calculation of D * 3.14 gives you the wide of mesh to cut. I cut it as below to make it easy to join the mesh to form a 5" tube.
Wrapping in 1" duct liner. The liner is duct rated..the smooth side faces in to prevent loose fibers from circulating. I've also sealed the exposed fiber at both ends with duct sealer. This was a mistake cut on the duct liner..I ended up with a full wrap of two layers which keeps the mesh tube nicely centered in the muffler.
Partially assembled. I wrapped the 8" duct material over the core, and wrestled a bit to pop the pipe seam in place.
Duck sealer! This came from Brock White industrial supply locally. It's water based, duct rated, easy to apply (like thickened latex paint) and quick drying.
Sealing the joints.
Sealing both ends to ensure loose fibers cannot enter the air stream.
They're very fast to construct. The larger one is for the 5" duct heading upstairs, and the 4" ID muffler is to manage the supply (hot) air going to the basement bath. The larger muffler is 48" (as large as I could fit in the space) and the smaller one is about 28". If you basically yell into one, the sound level is reduced by at least 50%...surprisingly effetive. I've measure reference noise levels first, so will update as the HVAC sound project is completed.
With basement pink noise (from my PC speakers) generated at 84 db, I'm measuring 47db on the 2nd floor at vent 1, and 35db at vent 2.
While the duct sealer was curing, I snuck in a self leveling cement pour before tiling..
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JohnnieMo
Well-known member
A duct muffler!!! Now I've seen everything. Well played.
G20-Budo
Well-known member
Dang Dennis, what DON'T you make?
Johnnie, Kyle...the proof will be (or not) in the install and post test today. I've noticed the main floor return vents are particularly loud currently. I'll test those after doing the acoustic duct liner.
For that matter, firing up a reference sound signal in a proposed theater space, and checking your house with a basic iPhone app would not be a bad idea.
I did a similar series of tests on dynamat sound deadening on my VW Westfalia that ranks very highly in google ranks: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=532900
We tested at front and back seats on a test stretch of highway at two reference speeds before and after treatment. There was not much of a difference....
For that matter, firing up a reference sound signal in a proposed theater space, and checking your house with a basic iPhone app would not be a bad idea.
I did a similar series of tests on dynamat sound deadening on my VW Westfalia that ranks very highly in google ranks: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=532900
We tested at front and back seats on a test stretch of highway at two reference speeds before and after treatment. There was not much of a difference....
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G20-Budo
Well-known member
Dennis, A very scientific approach, I love it!
Very interesting that your results showed little difference.. I will go and take a look at that thread, because I was thinking of adding some sound deadening to my car. Perhaps I won't now?
Mass loaded vinyl (like b-quiet) is effective, but ideally you'd do the entire car. Products like dynamat only need sparse application to address resonance. The problem with many installations are that they leave out an important aspect..like air sealing, isolation, or mass loading. Approaching it as a system is really the best approach, which definitely takes more time and effort.
G20-Budo
Well-known member
Dennis, I might hit you up off line on for more inputs on this. From my small amount of research, approaching it as a system it way to go. And I felt that dynamat would be better for area's like doors, and some area's with the resonance as you mentioned. I do not plan to get rid of my car, so might as well make it as enjoyable as I can.
Sure Kyle..will help as much as I can
So after just one muffler installed (and the entire HVAC system exposed) upstairs vent #1 (joins two bedrooms) noise levels dropped from 47db to 35db. A jump of 10db is perceived by many as "double the volume" so that drop is excellent! There will be further drops as the supply and return trunk vents are acoustically lined.
This is what it the 5" ID, 8" OD duct muffler looks like temporarily installed for a quick test:
Considering it's about $30 of materials and about 30 minutes to build..pretty good buzz for one's buck there.
So after just one muffler installed (and the entire HVAC system exposed) upstairs vent #1 (joins two bedrooms) noise levels dropped from 47db to 35db. A jump of 10db is perceived by many as "double the volume" so that drop is excellent! There will be further drops as the supply and return trunk vents are acoustically lined.
This is what it the 5" ID, 8" OD duct muffler looks like temporarily installed for a quick test:
Considering it's about $30 of materials and about 30 minutes to build..pretty good buzz for one's buck there.
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All buttoned up, strapped and sealed
With the entire HVAC system exposed and music playing loud (50hz pushing 100db, 1khz in the 82 db range) in the basement, you can hear nothing on the 2nd floor..just a faint rumble. There is no door at this point between basement, 1st and 2nd floors, so it's safe to say no one on the 2nd floor will have an issue with the basement media room. It's only to get quieter from here as I close up and insulate.
With the entire HVAC system exposed and music playing loud (50hz pushing 100db, 1khz in the 82 db range) in the basement, you can hear nothing on the 2nd floor..just a faint rumble. There is no door at this point between basement, 1st and 2nd floors, so it's safe to say no one on the 2nd floor will have an issue with the basement media room. It's only to get quieter from here as I close up and insulate.
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drivesitfar
Well-known member
Woody: it is truly hard to help you or coach you cause i do believe that you might research this stuff more than anybody i know. amazing method to gain a little more peace in the house. i have a 30 year old gas furnace in our hallway that wakes us up if we don't turn it down at night so one of these days we'll upgrade it and maybe i'll get skinny enough to crawl around under our house to maybe do a few of these ducting upgrades.
cheers and hope you are having a great weekend. if you get a second in between projects you might pop your head in on the new Woodworking 101 thread cause the members are posting up some good stuff.
cheers and hope you are having a great weekend. if you get a second in between projects you might pop your head in on the new Woodworking 101 thread cause the members are posting up some good stuff.
Drives, I'm pretty much learning as I go in many cases..so coaching is part of the deal, one way or another
Bret, I'm beyond impressed with how well the duct silencers work, and how easy they are to make. The Cinevate (work) mechanical system was designed to mitigate cross talk between tenant spaces, production areas and studio. There are large acoustically lined ducts, some running over 50ft, in the the 16" diameter range. I spec'd our studio there as a double walled room in the STC 65 range (so very quiet) and this has it's own HVAC system isolated from everything else. Being able to quite down a residential HVAC system (hard pipes are like fibre optics for sound!) with a few strategic silencers almost seems too easy.
Btw, your wood shop, bench etc. is very much a learning exercise for me. I was a historic carpenter at Old Fort William (depicting the 1816 fur trade post) where visitors to the fort are immersed in the year 1816, with costumed interpreters (including the trades folks) in character. My summer working in the carpenter shop was easily my favourite job ever. We turned parts for a (now built and sailing) schooner, among many other projects. I constructed a pair of triple mortise/tenon bar clamps that are still used there 25 years later. I also spent a summer in the cooper shop making buckets and barrels starting with cedar tree trunks, oak etc. Wood working (even at my rather basic level) is easily the most cathartic exercise for me
Bret, I'm beyond impressed with how well the duct silencers work, and how easy they are to make. The Cinevate (work) mechanical system was designed to mitigate cross talk between tenant spaces, production areas and studio. There are large acoustically lined ducts, some running over 50ft, in the the 16" diameter range. I spec'd our studio there as a double walled room in the STC 65 range (so very quiet) and this has it's own HVAC system isolated from everything else. Being able to quite down a residential HVAC system (hard pipes are like fibre optics for sound!) with a few strategic silencers almost seems too easy.
Btw, your wood shop, bench etc. is very much a learning exercise for me. I was a historic carpenter at Old Fort William (depicting the 1816 fur trade post) where visitors to the fort are immersed in the year 1816, with costumed interpreters (including the trades folks) in character. My summer working in the carpenter shop was easily my favourite job ever. We turned parts for a (now built and sailing) schooner, among many other projects. I constructed a pair of triple mortise/tenon bar clamps that are still used there 25 years later. I also spent a summer in the cooper shop making buckets and barrels starting with cedar tree trunks, oak etc. Wood working (even at my rather basic level) is easily the most cathartic exercise for me
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drivesitfar
Well-known member
Woody: well i hope you never stop wanting to learn stuff cause all the stuff you keep researching and finding out about is very interesting to me (us) so keep up the good work.
in case you might ever want to move and you find a piece of property and want to build a house might i suggest looking at this member's thread which BTW was the most popular thread on GJ BEFORE he started building his new home.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51567
i'm sure you'll enjoy his tech stuff and the quality. some of the cement in his new driveway is 10 inches thick so you might say he doesn't just do it to get r done he does it so it will be here 200 years from now.
thanks again for posting up the collection system over on the Woodworking 101 thread and hope you might learn a few things or have more to share as you have time to.
having a good weekend?
in case you might ever want to move and you find a piece of property and want to build a house might i suggest looking at this member's thread which BTW was the most popular thread on GJ BEFORE he started building his new home.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51567
i'm sure you'll enjoy his tech stuff and the quality. some of the cement in his new driveway is 10 inches thick so you might say he doesn't just do it to get r done he does it so it will be here 200 years from now.
thanks again for posting up the collection system over on the Woodworking 101 thread and hope you might learn a few things or have more to share as you have time to.
having a good weekend?
tjpavlov
Well-known member
I've never heard of air duct mufflers before. Can you share some more details about what sort of noise they are trying to stop? Is it the rushing air noise that you are trying to lessen, or is it sound from room to room, going through the vents? Or finally, is it noise that comes from the furnace itself?
This whole concept fascinates me and seems like just another rabbit hole!
This whole concept fascinates me and seems like just another rabbit hole!
TJ, those are great questions. Duct silencers are often used to quiet fan noises, but my interest in them is specifically to stop home theater audio from reaching upstairs bedrooms. Our furnace is new, with an ECM motor so is very, very quiet. Any supply or return in the basement is a potential noise vector into the HVAC system, so silencing these makes sense.
These silencers should have very little effect on flow, but they're proving to be very effective with respect to noise. Even raising my voice (yelling) in the basement bath, my wife had no idea upstairs. Sound from the basement bath has to go through two silencers to make it upstairs now. Previously, we could use the ducts as a bit of an intercom. I actually put both silencers end to end before installing them and "hollered" through them. The drop through two is very dramatic..likely a factor of 4 to 5x reduction in volume.
This chart from Fantech (if you're looking to just buy inline silencers) is pretty descriptive. Taking the LD 6 which is 24" long with an ID of 6" and OD of 10 1/4" you can read in the Sound Data chart that in the range of 300Hz to 3000Hz (where our hearing is most sensitive) it suppresses from 18 to 30 db of noise. A 10 db drop would sound like you dropped volume by 1/2, and 20 db would sound like you dropped to 1/4 the volume. Having two, or just a longer silencer like the one I built, likely drops sound levels even farther these published specs.
The Fantech LD5 (for 5" pipe) sells for about $90 and drops noise 40db (that's a lot!) in the 2khz range.
These silencers should have very little effect on flow, but they're proving to be very effective with respect to noise. Even raising my voice (yelling) in the basement bath, my wife had no idea upstairs. Sound from the basement bath has to go through two silencers to make it upstairs now. Previously, we could use the ducts as a bit of an intercom
. I actually put both silencers end to end before installing them and "hollered" through them. The drop through two is very dramatic..likely a factor of 4 to 5x reduction in volume.This chart from Fantech (if you're looking to just buy inline silencers) is pretty descriptive. Taking the LD 6 which is 24" long with an ID of 6" and OD of 10 1/4" you can read in the Sound Data chart that in the range of 300Hz to 3000Hz (where our hearing is most sensitive) it suppresses from 18 to 30 db of noise. A 10 db drop would sound like you dropped volume by 1/2, and 20 db would sound like you dropped to 1/4 the volume. Having two, or just a longer silencer like the one I built, likely drops sound levels even farther these published specs.
The Fantech LD5 (for 5" pipe) sells for about $90 and drops noise 40db (that's a lot!) in the 2khz range.
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dlcwent
Member Emeritus
Getting back to catch up Woody. Always interesting to see what you have going on. I never thought much about the noise the furnace makes but you again have brought another learning experience into my life. Thanks. I hope all is well with you and the family. Thanks again for sharing.
Growlertdi
Well-known member
such an awesome thread. Thanks for sharing all of your automation/sound deadening/efficiency information with us.
DLC, thanks for checking in I should mention that furnace noise itself was not a concern at all. The duct mufflers / silencers pretty much stop noise from the basement reaching upstairs bedrooms via the ducts. Noise travels through the ducts quite efficiently, almost like a fibre optic due to all the internal reflections. Insert a silencer like the ones I built, and noise levels drop dramatically. This way movies played in the basement media room should not bother anyone trying to sleep upstairs.
Growler, thanks for the kind words. I'm always learning and quite happy to share when I feel it might help another following a similar path. Google is quite a powerful tool these days when it comes to sorting a project
Doing tile over the last few nights with my 8 yr old showing a talent for grouting! Renovating in old houses where nothing is level or square always tests my patience...
I should mention that furnace noise itself was not a concern at all. The duct mufflers / silencers pretty much stop noise from the basement reaching upstairs bedrooms via the ducts. Noise travels through the ducts quite efficiently, almost like a fibre optic due to all the internal reflections. Insert a silencer like the ones I built, and noise levels drop dramatically. This way movies played in the basement media room should not bother anyone trying to sleep upstairs.Growler, thanks for the kind words. I'm always learning and quite happy to share when I feel it might help another following a similar path. Google is quite a powerful tool these days when it comes to sorting a project
Doing tile over the last few nights with my 8 yr old showing a talent for grouting! Renovating in old houses where nothing is level or square always tests my patience...
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Jango
Active member
Love your work! Im taking notes for my future garage.
sublime68charger
Well-known member
Woody,
Great work as always!
Due you hear that?
The sound of silence!
Oh and drives?
You and skinny in the same post??? Hmmmmmmm???
Great work as always!
Due you hear that?
The sound of silence!
Oh and drives?
You and skinny in the same post??? Hmmmmmmm???
G20-Budo
Well-known member
sublime68charger
Well-known member
Jango, thanks for the kind words. I hope you'll find some of the thread useful
Sub, silence at least until the Missus is rumbled from peaceful sleep by the manly resonance of a 12" sub..woofer that is.
Just glad I'm not drinking coffe and reading that line!
Bob Heine
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Dennis, I never named mine but 12" sub..woofer is unique and impressive!
Kyle, the media room is getting 5 of these Paradigm speakers we've had kicking around the studio for the last few yrs, and the sub:
We had a party for my 11 yr old nephew (and a bunch of his buds) last night at Cinevate in an upstairs area with about 1800 sq/ft of open space for a projecter/screen, air hockey and ping pong table. I'm thinking it may become a party space...the boys had a blast. We have a few the speakers set up there..I forgot how awesome they are!
Sub, you and my media room are strangely tied at least from the neural/cerebral side in some strange way now
Bob, I may just dress the sub in fur and a few ears. It will be known as the Woofer.
My reno efforts this am were thwarted by our first snow accompanied by blizzard like conditions last night. Fortunately the snow blower was serviced completely back when it was warm..and was already filled up with stabilised fuel A pleasant morning was spent opening up our back lane and a few driveways for the single ladies..ha.
We had a party for my 11 yr old nephew (and a bunch of his buds) last night at Cinevate in an upstairs area with about 1800 sq/ft of open space for a projecter/screen, air hockey and ping pong table. I'm thinking it may become a party space...the boys had a blast. We have a few the speakers set up there..I forgot how awesome they are!
Sub, you and my media room are strangely tied at least from the neural/cerebral side in some strange way now
Bob, I may just dress the sub in fur and a few ears. It will be known as the Woofer.
My reno efforts this am were thwarted by our first snow accompanied by blizzard like conditions last night. Fortunately the snow blower was serviced completely back when it was warm..and was already filled up with stabilised fuel
A pleasant morning was spent opening up our back lane and a few driveways for the single ladies..ha.
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G20-Budo
Well-known member
Kyle, the media room is getting 5 of these we've had kicking around the studio for the last few yrs, and the sub:
We had a party for my nephew last night at Cinevate in an upstairs area with about 1800 sq/ft of open space for a projecter/screen, air hockey and ping pong table. I'm thinking it may become a party space...the boys had a blast. We have a few the speakers set up there..I forgot how awesome they are!
Sub, you and my media room are strangely tied at least from the neural/cerebral side in some strange way now
Bob, I may just dress the sub in fur and a few ears. It will be known as the Woofer.
Those look NICE Dennis! And it sounds like the kids in your family have good parties.
sublime68charger
Well-known member
Kyle, the media room is getting 5 of these Paradigm speakers we've had kicking around the studio for the last few yrs, and the sub:
We had a party for my 11 yr old nephew (and a bunch of his buds) last night at Cinevate in an upstairs area with about 1800 sq/ft of open space for a projecter/screen, air hockey and ping pong table. I'm thinking it may become a party space...the boys had a blast. We have a few the speakers set up there..I forgot how awesome they are!
Sub, you and my media room are strangely tied at least from the neural/cerebral side in some strange way now
Bob, I may just dress the sub in fur and a few ears. It will be known as the Woofer.
My reno efforts this am were thwarted by our first snow accompanied by blizzard like conditions last night. Fortunately the snow blower was serviced completely back when it was warm..and was already filled up with stabilised fuel
Glad your able to deal with the snow!
Tell them single ladies that me and Bob are waiting for them in your new revamp media room!
Just don't tell either mine or Bobs wife or we both might have to be long term basement dwellers!