WW2 Anderson Panels Garage Resto

[davedree]

Hi, I'm Dave from Hampshire in the Uk.
I have used this forum in the past to get ideas for my project that I'm about to carry out. I moved into my house March this year and I've just managed to save up the first load of money to fund my footings and concrete.
Once the base has been spread out then I'll be ready for stage 2.

Here's what I currently have in my garden at the moment.
I love history and anything just ****** old and cool, this old garage certainly provides that. It was the garden and the potential, that led me to the purchase of the bungalow, the bungalow is in need of a lot of work too.















As can be seen by the last picture I have a lot of space to increase the size of the garage width ways, and also towards the rear of the garden. A side access road runs round the back which is really handy.

I've got a digger coming for the 19th Sept, So hopefully I'll have an update to my progress.

 

[Gary]

Lotus in the last picture?

 

[y'sguy]

Never seen those Anderson panels before. Hope you can salvage as much as possible. Love the potential with that place. subscribed!

 

[captain14]

Is this a version of a Quonset Hut? Quick shelter and building?

Looks like it was added onto for the door and Belvedere or clerestory windows in the upper part. May have to google this with my pocket encyclopedia.

Anyone else know any history of these panels?

 

[CaptainCaveman]

That, is very cool indeed!

Bet it's got a good story behind it, made from scavenged shrapnel shelters by an enthusiastic old giffer I suppose!

So what's the plan, are you keeping the same feel but widening it?
Don't lose that large radius blend into the roof, it's awesome!


Now to the practical side, how the hell will you insulate it?
I had a brick garage with a corrogated steel roof, it used to freeze overnight forming icicles and then melt and drip during the day, which would then freeze in puddles on the floor, etc...

Will you be working on car and bike?
Planning to put a heavy joist to hold the bike up for getting the suspension out etc?

Any sketches?

 

[CaptainCaveman]

Is this a version of a Quonset Hut? Quick shelter and building?

Looks like it was added onto for the door and Belvedere or clerestory windows in the upper part. May have to google this with my pocket encyclopedia.

Anyone else know any history of these panels?

From an old WW2 Anderson shelter (we got bombed alot!),
Essentially bent corrogated sheet dug into the ground and usually partially or fully buried.

Found this on googleimages:

A non-buried erection.

Looks like the OP garage is built from scavenged sections, you can see the height is added by blocks to the base.

 

[davedree]

The car is a 1984 mk2 Vw Scirocco Storm.

Anderson Panels were made in 1938 and if you were poor they were given to you free, and if you earned a certain amount you paid a fee. You were meant to dig quite a deep pit into the ground and cover it with soil. like this



After the war you were meant to give back the panels, or you could buy them for a small fee. I imagine this old boy either nicked them or obtained them from local people within the street or the dockyard?

As I'm old before my time, I want to keep the look and feel of how it is but extend it widthways by 3.5 metres.

I will have to redesign the front door and the roof section, but the left hand side with the windows will be moved closer to the boundary line of the fence.

I'll be working on car and bike and as you say insulation is something I have to look into,
A heavy joist would be nice but not sure if it could be used in this situation, it's something I need to work out, as height is a problem as it's sloped.

I'll try and get some pics up of some ideas I have in the next few days.

 

[FJ 432]

Dave,

That is a great idea. The existing building has so much character and I love the "skylight" windows. Will you be able to keep those as you widen your footprint?

Welcome by the way from Colorado.

 

[davedree]

FJ I hope to keep those comical windows, It's really awesome backyard engineering, a bit like the late Fred Dibnah and his mineshaft that he built in his back garden.

But it depends on how I design the roof, as a big problem is that it's not insulated, and there's quite a gap between the roof rafters and each corrugation.

 

[captain14]

I did some research in the net and discovered what they were designed and used for. Bomb shelters during the war. Maybe you could split them and build a central hall and have these act as side rooms or build the larger room at the end. Not sure of your lot size , but I imagine it is not very big to start with.

Keep us posted in your plans.

 

[CaptainCaveman]

<snip>

As I'm old before my time, I want to keep the look and feel of how it is but extend it widthways by 3.5 metres.

I will have to redesign the front door and the roof section, but the left hand side with the windows will be moved closer to the boundary line of the fence.

I'll be working on car and bike and as you say insulation is something I have to look into,
A heavy joist would be nice but not sure if it could be used in this situation, it's something I need to work out, as height is a problem as it's sloped.

I'll try and get some pics up of some ideas I have in the next few days.

Keeping the roof style over such a size, maybe something like this would suit?

It'll be tricky whatever the solution I imagine.


If it were me,
I wouldn't keep the rounded corrogated sections to the sides, as you won't be able to see them from from the outside when they're up against the fence. If you insulate, you won't even be able to see it from the inside either, then it's a pain in the **** for no aesthetic gain.
Instead, I'd build a reasonably conventional structure with the corregations to the 4 corners front and back either side of the garage doors at front and access window/door to rear.

Maybe alternatively you could use the curve sections for roof panels and have upright corrogated to form the walls?


Sorry to be a spoilsport, have you looked at PP / PD & BR?

 

[davedree]

I did some research in the net and discovered what they were designed and used for. Bomb shelters during the war. Maybe you could split them and build a central hall and have these act as side rooms or build the larger room at the end. Not sure of your lot size , but I imagine it is not very big to start with.

Keep us posted in your plans.

Will do, there's so many ideas. It would be a shame to knock it all down just for a modern alternative.
I can go 1 metre wider without needing planning permission, then the garage will keep it's current structure, but ideally I need space for 2 cars and 2 motorbikes in the garage.

Or I could build a wooden frame lean-to.
Or get planning permission and build a half brick/half timber construction and use the panels
At front and back, or just use panels as a seperate motorbike shed

Planning permission will be ok, as everyone has double garages down the road, neighbours either side are great too.
What does pd and br stand for?

 

[HSpencer]

Love the thread. Great WWII history. I would love to work up something like that.
Looks good and your doing well!!

Best Regards
Herb Spencer

 

[Ned Kelly]

That little shed has some soul!

 

[Bib Overalls]

I think using the panels for a garden or motorcycle shed makes sense and (cents). The original design will be restored and you will not need to make compromises when building your replacement garage.

Another thing to consider. At some time, you (or your estate) will be selling the place off. A properly built, conventional garage will be an asset. Something that looks like a recycled Nissen Hut will be a liability.

Have you followed Bazzateer's project?

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50588

Seems to be his solution to a similar situation.

 

[FireTurtle]

Man that is really cool looking like it is. Hope you keep that charm with the expansion.

 

[CaptainCaveman]

Will do, there's so many ideas. It would be a shame to knock it all down just for a modern alternative.
I can go 1 metre wider without needing planning permission, then the garage will keep it's current structure, but ideally I need space for 2 cars and 2 motorbikes in the garage.

Or I could build a wooden frame lean-to.
Or get planning permission and build a half brick/half timber construction and use the panels
At front and back, or just use panels as a seperate motorbike shed

Planning permission will be ok, as everyone has double garages down the road, neighbours either side are great too.
What does pd and br stand for?

PD = Permitted Development, i.e. Structures that don't need planning permission.
These are typically:
Less than 2.5m tall if within 2.5m from boundary, max eves height 2m.
Less than 50% of original space around the original (or as 1948) house is taken up,
Not infront of the house (don't know if you have an alley they count this as 2 fronts...),

BR = Building Regs:
Upto 15sqm - none needed,
15-30sqm and within 1m from boundary - none needed if a primarily non combustable structure (brick / block / metal walls).
15-30sqm more than 1m from boundary - none needed,
30+ sqm - BR approval required.

Google the Planning Portal, it's a gov.uk website that actually explains it all very well.

Check the PP carefully for egress and lines of sight from a garage before you apply,
many old garages don't comply (they were before the new standards), so it may not be automatic.

My grandad wasn't allowed to rebuild an old wall because it broke the line of sight out the garage rule, now be can't drive into the garage and the council even put a parking bay across the drop kerb! he wishes he just went under the radar...

 

[ZRX61]

I imagine this old boy either nicked them or obtained them from local people within the street or the dockyard?

Pompey? what part?

 

[Lippyp]

As a WWII buff I thoroughly approve, the lean to on the back of my garage has old steel windows salvaged (or nicked) from one of the many derelict WWII airbases around us. When I was a kid my dads compost heap on his alootment was made from salvaged anderson shelter panels. There was a row of bungalows near our last house that still had a couple left in back gardens in situ being used as shed.

You can block the gaps between joists and panels with expanding foam as they'll probably not be the right profile to use the pre-made foam strips you can buy. I guess the obvious way to insulate would be spray foam. You'll need to as it'll rain like a ******* in there in cold damp weather from all the condensation, my last garage had a tin roof and it was miserable until I stuck a dehumidifier in there.

 

[Crown]

It has character and potential, maybe you could turn it into something like this:

With windows on both sides (like you have now) for natural light and added height. The sloped roof could be made of corrogated sheets to match.

 

[xtremek]

Your building is COOL! As an engineer, I like it when people conserve resources. It also is more of an adventure. I'm going to follow this one.

 

[CaptainCaveman]

Here are some incredibly crude sketches from my brain:

Left, using the sheets for some of the roofing with an overhang,
Handily the roof construction would be reasonably conventional and you can add a cool double tier thing to get some windows in roughly similar to existing.

Second drawing is pulling the curves into the wall, unconventional roof and.something clever with purlins would be needed.

Third option is entirely conventional building (maybe you could jazz it up with the second tier roof window type thing) with Anderson sheds running along the length up either side, these could have a windowed wall either end with access from inside the garage, useful storage indeed.

 

[xtremek]

I vote for number 2.

 

[davedree]

I think using the panels for a garden or motorcycle shed makes sense and (cents). The original design will be restored and you will not need to make compromises when building your replacement garage.

Another thing to consider. At some time, you (or your estate) will be selling the place off. A properly built, conventional garage will be an asset. Something that looks like a recycled Nissen Hut will be a liability.

Have you followed Bazzateer's project?

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50588

Seems to be his solution to a similar situation.

To be honest whilst there is some truth to that, in theory that only applies to someone concerned with something cool and unique or potentially hazardous. I'm old school, and health and safety and the modern world really gets on my **** sometimes. Since health and safety has created the standardization policy, that's really a reason for money making and boringness. For example the garage was noted in the homebuyer report as aged,dangerous and ideally should be torn down. It didn't deter me in the slightest and whilst we all look at a house as an investment, I just want to live here and worry about anything else when I'm old and dead.

In reality the garage was made out of scrap materials, recycling and environmentally friendly construction, no modern plastics and bonding materials, and it's been stood upright for over 60 years and is solid but needs some tlc. The only problem for me is it needs some width, However a squared off modern design, would provide greater height and usable width space.

I've followed Bazzateer's thread it's great shame he was height restricted and had to get rid of his van.

PD = Permitted Development, i.e. Structures that don't need planning permission.
These are typically:
Less than 2.5m tall if within 2.5m from boundary, max eves height 2m.
Less than 50% of original space around the original (or as 1948) house is taken up,
Not infront of the house (don't know if you have an alley they count this as 2 fronts...),

BR = Building Regs:
Upto 15sqm - none needed,
15-30sqm and within 1m from boundary - none needed if a primarily non combustable structure (brick / block / metal walls).
15-30sqm more than 1m from boundary - none needed,
30+ sqm - BR approval required.

Google the Planning Portal, it's a gov.uk website that actually explains it all very well.

Check the PP carefully for egress and lines of sight from a garage before you apply,
many old garages don't comply (they were before the new standards), so it may not be automatic.

My grandad wasn't allowed to rebuild an old wall because it broke the line of sight out the garage rule, now be can't drive into the garage and the council even put a parking bay across the drop kerb! he wishes he just went under the radar...

Yeah the boring part lol, Although i'm currently about 15 sqm
5m x 3.0m external.

Pompey? what part?

hint, we have a few submarines and forts on display

As a WWII buff I thoroughly approve, the lean to on the back of my garage has old steel windows salvaged (or nicked) from one of the many derelict WWII airbases around us. When I was a kid my dads compost heap on his alootment was made from salvaged anderson shelter panels. There was a row of bungalows near our last house that still had a couple left in back gardens in situ being used as shed.

You can block the gaps between joists and panels with expanding foam as they'll probably not be the right profile to use the pre-made foam strips you can buy. I guess the obvious way to insulate would be spray foam. You'll need to as it'll rain like a ******* in there in cold damp weather from all the condensation, my last garage had a tin roof and it was miserable until I stuck a dehumidifier in there.

Thanks for the little story on your WW2 salvage parts, It's something that also fascinates me. The insulation you mention is one method but I'd consider that a lost resort. I think I'll be redesigning the roof so I might have a solution to the ridge gaps.

It has character and potential, maybe you could turn it into something like this:

With windows on both sides (like you have now) for natural light and added height. The sloped roof could be made of corrogated sheets to match.

You're pretty much on track that's what I've been thinking, The only problem then is what do I do about a front door.

 

[davedree]

I vote number 2, although here are 2 of my ideas when I was thinking a while back.

number 1




I like crowns sketch and your number 2, the wooden lean-to of mine I thought about back In May, it was a cheap thought towards getting something up nice and easy, whilst widening the original garage by 1 metre

Here is a birds eye view but it shows some wastage land in the bottom right corner.
The garage could be shifted closer to the access road, giving me another 1-2m's of garden back.







and here's how much room I have before the access road looking side on.


notice height and size of nextdoors garage, and the neighbours further up.

 

[captain14]

To gain perspective of how this is laid out on your lot, I think I see :

1. the end is at the back doors to the rear alley

2. The original shelter has been split in half with corrugated tin for the roof and upper windows

3. And the full windows face into the backyard

4. Man door and bump out is closest to your house and back yard?

Can you take a photo from the second floor so we can visually see your yard and garage?

Looks like your neighbors each have a fair sized garage from the alley pictures.

Thanks

 

[CaptainCaveman]

Yep the PP / PD / BR is definitely the boring stuff!

Are you bothering with any of it? I suppose if PP'd then BR are automatically in the know.
Looks like your neighbours have got pro jobs built, maybe worth checking records, if they didn't bother; they are unlikely to complain about yours!
Although its still possibly a risky bet.

If your taking down and rebuilding, then bringing it inline with next doors double seems a good idea,
an extra potential 1-2 meter to the garden should placate her indoors and it's only dead space to you anyway.

Did you say you plan to fit 2 cars and the bike in there?
The place is going to be massive!

With a tight entrance, would one large double door be easier ti swing into from the alley?
Also means it'd be easier to get the bike up between the cars.
A electric roller door would be very bat cave.

If you can't fit the bike in the garage you could of course have an extra, small outbuilding for it.
With a house blocking one side and a garage the other I doubt it would be less secure.

You need to.spend some time with some squared paper and a pencil(!)

 

[davedree]

To gain perspective of how this is laid out on your lot, I think I see :

1. the end is at the back doors to the rear alley

2. The original shelter has been split in half with corrugated tin for the roof and upper windows

3. And the full windows face into the backyard

4. Man door and bump out is closest to your house and back yard?

Can you take a photo from the second floor so we can visually see your yard and garage?

Looks like your neighbors each have a fair sized garage from the alley pictures.


Thanks

You are correct on all of that, as it's a bungalow I can't really provide a picture that would help anymore really.

 

[davedree]

C-caveman, I can't budget for a new garage just yet, if I had the funds I'd go with pp, and go 8x 6.5.
I feel the best thing for me and the budget is to modify what's already there at just under 30sqm until I'm a little richer. I imagine br wouldn"t allow the panels?

as you say the roller door, and consideration into tightness of getting into garage would be factor if I moved it closer to the access road. And the bike shed could be a seperate building if need be.
Pen and paper and a good hard think is in order.

the digger is coming this weekend, so will hopefully have some pics.
Thanks everybody who's suggested things.

 

[npp]

Panels look cool.Ouch what happened to the Triumph?

 

[CaptainCaveman]

C-caveman, I can't budget for a new garage just yet, if I had the funds I'd go with pp, and go 8x 6.5.
I feel the best thing for me and the budget is to modify what's already there at just under 30sqm until I'm a little richer. I imagine br wouldn"t allow the panels?

as you say the roller door, and consideration into tightness of getting into garage would be factor if I moved it closer to the access road. And the bike shed could be a seperate building if need be.
Pen and paper and a good hard think is in order.

the digger is coming this weekend, so will hopefully have some pics.
Thanks everybody who's suggested things.

With a tight budget and to avoid PP / BR etc,
could it not be most beneficial to to find a cheap second hand concrete sectional to put alongside the existing garage?
It'd be saleable for just as much when you come to get rid and would give you more time to get plans and cash together. (and they take about a day to put up between 2 of you!)

To keep at 30sqm, 5 wide by 6 deep would comfortably fit a car and bike (or a few!) + working space,
Indeed you may be able to construct it for less than a couple of grand if you DiY.
Or, flog the trumpet, buy something 'characterful' from the 90's (i.e. Cheap) and fund the garage that way!

Did another swift sketch earlier on your mention of 6.5m width, mirroring.more your original roofline:

(i was bored, missus working late and internet down...)

 

[Lippyp]

I like the idea of mirroring that roof setup so you end up with what would be called a "Clerestory roof" with windows down each side of the raised central section. That would also potentially give you enough height for a low lift. You can find used wriggly tin on ebay to keep the patinated look and to keep the costs down.

 

[davedree]

Hello people,
My friend who works in the building trade, who operated the digger convinced me that footings weren't needed unless I was going to build with brick. I agreed although I was tryng to future-proof for in the future. So we are now just going to slab it over with 300mm premixed concrete+reinforced mesh. I then decided that I'll keep the anderson shelter exactly how it is but will renovate and restore it. I will then plonk next to the anderson shelter a metal Rowlinson or equivalent garage maybe even a 2nd hand sectional garage if one pops up. This will tie me over for a couple of years until I have more money and planning permission, for a nice wooden timber construction.

So here are some pictures of the progress so far.

Big Wayno

























The MurryHill although not the highest quality will keep me happy for a couple of years or so. It even comes with a sectional roll over door, and a sliding side door and range of different lengths. I can always weld and modify the panels/frame for mods like windows and a rear door.

http://www.gardensite.co.uk/Rowlinson_Metal_Sheds/

 

[sean Buick 76]

I think it is a smart move to keep the old structure together and fix it up!

 

[davedree]

I think it is a smart move to keep the old structure together and fix it up!

Thanks yeah I feel putting in a few hundred quid into it without disturbing the structure is the best solution.Effectively it provides more room for the temporary garage next to it too.
C-caveman and wayno convinced me to go back to my original ideas, building a seperate garage next to it.

I'll get some more pics as it progresses.



As to the triumph in bits, we seperated ways whilst approaching a roundabout at 1:30am.
I came in too hot and the lights that normally illuminate the roundabout were out due to a recent storm. It put me off thinking I had more road tHan I did.luckily we ended up both slidING on grass and bushes, there was no way I would have made the roundabout., otherwise I wouldn't be here. triumph suffered broken fairings, exhaust and sump pin hole. No major damage otherwise.
for me I have slightly dicky hip near groin, top of leg.
but it's not painful and I'm lucky i'm not a vegetablE or dead.

Lesson learned? Probably not but I won't ride hard at night anymore.

 

[vagabondmidget]

Beautiful Scirocco, extremely rare around here.

 

[Sunbimmer]

I'm very curious where you're going with this. I've never seen such a building before, had to google "Anderson panels"
Funny thing is if you do, Google asks you if it is "Pamela Anderson" that you are searching for, well no thanks

Please keep this one alive with lots of pics.

 

[davedree]

I'm very curious where you're going with this. I've never seen such a building before, had to google "Anderson panels"
Funny thing is if you do, Google asks you if it is "Pamela Anderson" that you are searching for, well no thanks

Please keep this one alive with lots of pics.

Haa shE must be gettING on a bit now.

 

[davedree]

Thankyou, storm model too. needs a freshen up but it'll come together when the garage is built

 

[vagabondmidget]

Thankyou, storm model too. needs a freshen up but it'll come together when the garage is built

I'm familiar with the name storm but not the specs, that's some cool heritage