Yet another sub panel question

[supratreo]

Hi all, so getting ready to start work on the new shop and had a question about the electrical and what size panel and wire to run.
This is a home shop (36x40) and will, at min, have a 2 post lift. 240v compressor, Hobart 210, and your typical smaller tools such as bench grinder, drill press... I'm not sure on the exact lighting just yet but most likely will be UFO style LED lights with 4 outdoor security lights. I will be the only one working in there really since its a hobby shop. i have a 400A main and about 215' of 2" conduit to use. any recommendations?
Thank you

 

[mike93lx]

Anything 60-90a is plenty.

#2 aluminum (MHF or xhhw) would be the minimum for 60a. Upsize from there to your heart's (and wallet's) content

Any hvac?

 

[supratreo]

thank you for the reply. i do remember reading somewhere here that 90A max has a certin advantage but i couldn't remember what that might have been. maybe it was because wire sizing and cost saving.
anyhow, i've never used aluminum. how had is it to work with? as of right now i have 3 90s and 175' of conduit to pull through. all under ground.

 

[dscheidt]

thank you for the reply. i do remember reading somewhere here that 90A max has a certin advantage but i couldn't remember what that might have been. maybe it was because wire sizing and cost saving.
anyhow, i've never used aluminum. how had is it to work with? as of right now i have 3 90s and 175' of conduit to pull through. all under ground.

Money. 90A lets you use 2 awg aluminum, 100 requires 1 awg. Additionally 2-2-2-4 or 2-2-2-6 is available as 'mobile home feeder' with all four wires in a bundle. The next higher common size is 00-00-1-4, which is overkill for 100A. (the sizing is because 2 awg is good for 100A when it serves the whole load of a dwelling; 2/0 gets you 125 A that way. Those are standard service sizes, so wires for them are available. Sub panels don't get that added ampacity.) Current prices for 2-2-2-4 mhf are around $1.50 a foot; 2/0 is $2.50.

Whatever you pull, install a panel with lots of breaker space. it's a trivial expense, and I've seen far too many shops where the builder installed a stupidly small panel, which was out of space immediately.

 

[nadogail]

Bigger Panels with twice the breaker space are not twice the price.

 

[mike93lx]

thank you for the reply. i do remember reading somewhere here that 90A max has a certin advantage but i couldn't remember what that might have been. maybe it was because wire sizing and cost saving.
anyhow, i've never used aluminum. how had is it to work with? as of right now i have 3 90s and 175' of conduit to pull through. all under ground.

At a distance of under around 100', #2 let's you do 90a. And that's a sweet spot for price and availability. At your distance, voltage drop is under 4% with 60a and #2, so that's why I recommended it. It's not easy to need more than that in a single person shop and it will pull fine through your conduit. Have a helper and use lube. Good advice anyways

 

[supratreo]

thank you guys, thats exactly what i needed.
per code, would i need a 4 or 6ga ground? or if you can tell me what section to look in i can go find it.

 

[supratreo]

also, going this route with the MHF cuts my cost estimate down by 2/3.

 

[mike93lx]

also, going this route with the MHF cuts my cost estimate down by 2/3.

6 is fine up to 100a.

You also need two ground rods.

Use a big panel... I'd do at least a 24 space, and make sure to remove the bonding screw. You may need to buy a ground bar

 

[supratreo]

thank you.
is there a panel brand you guys prefer? i see most builder use square d but i know Eaton and GE parts are readily available at any box store. pretty sure quality is all the same but i don't have as much experience as you guys.

 

[mike93lx]

My house has two square d homelines, which work fine, plus a Siemens for a sub. I'd probably grab a homeline or square d QO.

 

[sparky 1971]

thank you.
is there a panel brand you guys prefer? i see most builder use square d but i know Eaton and GE parts are readily available at any box store. pretty sure quality is all the same but i don't have as much experience as you guys.

I use Square D Homeline most of the time, including for myself because it seems to be available anywhere. Siemens makes a good panel, but make sure it has a copper bus, they sneak aluminum bus bars into some (it will say on the box). I'm not a fan of either GE or Eaton BR, but Eaton CH is good stuff, and so is Square D QO, but there's a pretty big hike in price when it comes to the latter two.

 

[Norcal]

thank you.
is there a panel brand you guys prefer? i see most builder use square d but i know Eaton and GE parts are readily available at any box store. pretty sure quality is all the same but i don't have as much experience as you guys.

What make do you have existing? That is where I would start.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Money. 90A lets you use 2 awg aluminum, 100 requires 1 awg. Additionally 2-2-2-4 or 2-2-2-6 is available as 'mobile home feeder' with all four wires in a bundle. The next higher common size is 00-00-1-4, which is overkill for 100A. (the sizing is because 2 awg is good for 100A when it serves the whole load of a dwelling; 2/0 gets you 125 A that way. Those are standard service sizes, so wires for them are available. Sub panels don't get that added ampacity.) Current prices for 2-2-2-4 mhf are around $1.50 a foot; 2/0 is $2.50.

Whatever you pull, install a panel with lots of breaker space. it's a trivial expense, and I've seen far too many shops where the builder installed a stupidly small panel, which was out of space immediately.

the sizes are 2-2-2-4 and 2-2-4-6. one of them has a reduced neutral and ground

 

[supratreo]

one more question for you guys.
I'm trying to understand Mikes post (#6). I understand that the longer the run the more voltage drop you have but do you also cut ampacity? He mentioned at the distance i'm running i would be allowed 60A which would be a reduction of 30A because of distance. my understanding is that i would then have a max of 60A service at the shop. am i understanding that correct?

also, for sparky, is there a reason for copper over aluminum? i usually prefer copper everything and honestly was looking to spend the money on wiring until i found out about MHF. i'm assuming its just a better conductor and higher quality and longevity than aluminum?

Norcal: right now i have square D

 

[bronc076]

MHF is aluminum. I had to run a new underground line from my meter main to my house and to the shop I'm having built. I used MHF, it's a tidy direct burial way of doing it. MHF is about 5-7 times cheaper than copper equivalent.

It's what the folks on here that consistently give good advice for free recommended so I listened. I just looked on wire and cable your way and copper for a 100 amps is over 10 bucks a foot. For what I did it would be the cost of my two post lift to use copper.

 

[mike93lx]

one more question for you guys.
I'm trying to understand Mikes post (#6). I understand that the longer the run the more voltage drop you have but do you also cut ampacity? He mentioned at the distance i'm running i would be allowed 60A which would be a reduction of 30A because of distance. my understanding is that i would then have a max of 60A service at the shop. am i understanding that correct?

also, for sparky, is there a reason for copper over aluminum? i usually prefer copper everything and honestly was looking to spend the money on wiring until i found out about MHF. i'm assuming its just a better conductor and higher quality and longevity than aluminum?

Norcal: right now i have square D

Voltage drop decreases as you lower current. So a wire may be acceptable at 60a, but not at 90a. The wire can handle 90a in both cases, but your equipment won't be happy as voltage drops too far.

3% voltage drop is the target max. At your distance, you would slightly exceed that with 60a, but in practice, you are unlikely to hit those levels anyway

 

[Norcal]

one more question for you guys.
I'm trying to understand Mikes post (#6). I understand that the longer the run the more voltage drop you have but do you also cut ampacity? He mentioned at the distance i'm running i would be allowed 60A which would be a reduction of 30A because of distance. my understanding is that i would then have a max of 60A service at the shop. am i understanding that correct?

also, for sparky, is there a reason for copper over aluminum? i usually prefer copper everything and honestly was looking to spend the money on wiring until i found out about MHF. i'm assuming its just a better conductor and higher quality and longevity than aluminum?

Norcal: right now i have square D

QO or Homeline? Just match whatever you have.

 

[sparky 1971]

also, for sparky, is there a reason for copper over aluminum? i usually prefer copper everything and honestly was looking to spend the money on wiring until i found out about MHF. i'm assuming its just a better conductor and higher quality and longevity than aluminum.

The aluminum I was referring to is the material that the panel bus bar is made of, not the wire. Aluminum wire is fine, but aluminum bus bars are ****. Square D Homeline has aluminum bus, but it has a substantial coating of tin over it, making it much better, but not quite as good as copper, IMO. I've never seen a burned aluminum bus in a Homeline, but have in just about every other brand out there.

Norcal: right now i have square D

Stick with what you have. SQD makes two versions, QO and Homeline, you will be able to tell them apart at any box store.

 

[supratreo]

thanks again all. i've been looking around and the 2 sites that keep coming up are Wire and cable your way and Nassau National which is about $68 cheaper than WC. I'll also call some local places monday but i highly doubt they'd be able to come close to Nassau.
I wish they carried more products but one thing they do have is ground rods so i'll get 2 of those as Wylies mentioned.
I haven't been able to find anything that says you need X rod fror Y amperage. All i found is that it needs to be 8' min and at least 5/8" if copper coated steel. is this correct? also, what is the reason for running 2.

 

[mike93lx]

The reason is that it's code.

You can run one, if you have the equipment to prove it hits the right resistance to ground. But basically no one has that equipment, so we install two.

I'd wonder about shipping cost for rods and I bet buying them locally makes more sense

 

[bronc076]

I picked up my ground rods at Menards, I'm not sure if Lowe's or Home Depot have them but any electrical supply would. Sometimes going to an electrical supply can be intimidating to a non pro if you don't know the jargon but I was plesently surprised how helpful and fair priced two of my local electrical supply places were. They didn't sell the wire sizes I needed by the foot so I'd have to buy a full roll but the per foot price was comparable to wire and cable your way. I think that was the 2-2-4-6 MHF for the shop. I needed a large neutral ground bus for my meter main pedestal, showed the guy a pic and he walked in the back and came out with exactly what I needed and I think it cost 15 bucks, I was amazed. I told him what I needed to add an isolated neutral to my house panel and I had a Siemens part number, he sent me to a competitor because they sold Siemens. I went there and picked up what I needed for slightly more than the cost on Amazon. When it comes time to wire my shop Lloyds in Branson will get all my business.

Try shopping locally, I've heard of bad experiences at supply houses that don't want to deal with the public, all you have to do is go elsewhere if that happens.

 

[75gmck25]

Also remember that unlike other merchandise, Amazon may not have the best prices for low volume electrical devices or for wire.

Local supply house, online supply house or local big box store may be the best deal. The online supply house will probably have the best price, but shipping will kill the savings if its a small order.

 

[PCustoms]

^^^the local supply house beat out wire and cable your way by at least 10%, I think it may have even been 20%.

I went in one day, priced out what I needed and went in the next morning to pick it all up. Cash sale and done.

 

[supratreo]

I checked HD and the ground rods are about $10 cheaper there. Ill call a couple supply houses tomorrow. thank you guys.

 

[supratreo]

Last last question. Does brand matter? with a lot of cheap chineese stuff out there, especially with wire i know you need to make sure you get what your actually ordering. i know people who have ordered automotive wiring and they order 8ga but what they get is more like 10ga with thick insullation.
i'm looking at Nassau nation and Wire and cable your way. the first is about .40/ft cheaper and has cheaper shipping but i can't find too much info on them here. i see other have ordered from WC and had good pricing but that was years ago.
i called around locally and no one had it, one place didn't even know what it was. Granger and McMaster don't have it and neither do the box stores.

 

[mike93lx]

I would only buy electrical stuff from a reputable seller. No-name junk isn't going into the electrical system at my house.

Nassau and wireandcableyourway are both legit

 

[supratreo]

So i got the wire in yesterday. I was expecting 4 conductors in a jacket but this is just 4 separated conductors twisted and rolled up. is this what MHF usually is?
also, i lied about the conduit, i checked today and its 1 1/2", should still be plenty to pull through i think. Another question i had was that when the wire comes up under my deck, it needs to make a 90 and go towards the main panel. would would be the best to use here, a box, access pull elbow or LB?
i plan on removing a couple pieces of decking so i can feed the wire through to the shop.

 

[mike93lx]

So i got the wire in yesterday. I was expecting 4 conductors in a jacket but this is just 4 separated conductors twisted and rolled up. is this what MHF usually is?
also, i lied about the conduit, i checked today and its 1 1/2", should still be plenty to pull through i think. Another question i had was that when the wire comes up under my deck, it needs to make a 90 and go towards the main panel. would would be the best to use here, a box, access pull elbow or LB?
i plan on removing a couple pieces of decking so i can feed the wire through to the shop.

Yes, MHF is unjacketed.

If you have room for a box, you won't regret it

 

[supratreo]

thank you. i have plenty of room for a box.

 

[pattenp]

Would a long 90 sweep work in the space?

 

[supratreo]

yes, it would fit but i'm trying to have a pull point between the shop and main. or are you saying do a 90 to a box?
as it sits now i'll have to pull through 4 90's.

 

[mike93lx]

as it sits now i'll have to pull through 4 90's.

The you have to put in a pull point. 360 degrees is the limit

 

[Model A Fan]

thank you.
is there a panel brand you guys prefer? i see most builder use square d but i know Eaton and GE parts are readily available at any box store. pretty sure quality is all the same but i don't have as much experience as you guys.

Take a look at my thread here:

Sub-Panel in Garage-Adding 220v for Table Saw and Air Compressor

Couldn't remember. I'd never run solid, let alone nm-b in conduit myself. Sure it can be done.... I'm assuming stranded would be best for running through conduit? I had planned on assembling the conduit as I went along. Pull the wires then run the conduit over them until I get it all glued up...

www.garagejournal.com

I did something very similar two years ago, and I was under a budget of sorts. I'd use Square D Homeline as the panel (MUCH cheaper breakers than the QO panels)

I'd recommend as big of a panel as you can put in:

Square D Homeline 100 Amp 24-Space 48-Circuit Indoor Main Breaker Plug-On Neutral Load Center with Cover(HOM2448M100PCVP) HOM2448M100PCVP - The Home Depot

Save expensive cable and time in your home with Square D Homeline Indoor Main Breaker PlugOn Neutral Load Center with Cover Value Pack.

www.homedepot.com

I put two of those in my barn as a sub-panel, and then a sub-sub-panel (powered by the original sub-panel wired to MHF running to an outdoor panel).

I find that Square D Homeline is good quality, inexpensive, and you can find the parts easily at any hardware store (incredibly generic/universally used).

The QO line has slimmer breakers, but the cost seems to be much higher ($17.41/QO breaker vs $7.33/Homeline). If I didn't have two QO panels already, I would not have purchased them just due to the price difference in a hobby shop. As it is, I used one as a sub-sub-sub-panel for my lighting in the upper reaches of my barn (very little power usage) and the other is currently the main breaker panel for my garage, but it will be replaced by the bigger Homeline panel I referenced above.

My barn is wired for 90A because of the above mentioned reasons. @mike93lx is very knowledgeable and helped me through my projects from multiple threads. My knowledge is based in being as frugal as possible, but spending money where it made the most sense.