York Bullet Vise

[Bull]

And the plot thickens...!

Thanks for posting, D and D!

 

[kc-steve]

I don't know if you guys have been keeping up but RobRace10 (former Wilton executive) also put a lot of those questions to bed in the Wilton History thread, page 8. I personally checked him out and his claims. He wants to remain anonymous.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86615&page=8

Especially in post number 148 where he said that Wilton trademarked their design forever, so now you see York vises have physically changed.

. . . but Wilton has a Trademark on the bullet shape and that is what has kept others from copying them as the patents ran out decades ago, but Trademarks never expire unless you don't actively go after infringements. The infringing companies were told to cease and desist.

So that pretty well says who is copying whom even though York had it first. No more thick plots.

Steve

 

[Bull]

I don't know if you guys have been keeping up but RobRace10 (former Wilton executive) also put a lot of those questions to bed in the Wilton History thread, page 8. I personally checked him out and his claims. He wants to remain anonymous.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86615&page=8

Especially in post number 148 where he said that Wilton trademarked their design forever, so now you see York vises have physically changed.



So that pretty well says who is copying whom even though York had it first. No more thick plots.

Steve

I hadn't been in that thread at all; thanks for the link!

So: it has been established, then, that Hugh Vogl brought the bullet idea and design over from York, i.e. York was the first to have such a design?

 

[kc-steve]

I hadn't been in that thread at all; thanks for the link!

So: it has been established, then, that Hugh Vogl brought the bullet idea and design over from York, i.e. York was the first to have such a design?

Yes, I would say that, based upon the email you received from the guy at York (and patents). I wasn't able to get Robert to confirm or deny it because he wasn't at Wilton in the beginning.

However, the bullet vise trademark is what really matters and that belongs to Wilton even though York created it first. So York had to change its design to avoid trademark infringement.


Steve

 

[Bull]

Yes, I would say that, based upon the email you received from the guy at York (and patents). I wasn't able to get Robert to confirm or deny it because he wasn't at Wilton in the beginning.

However, the bullet vise trademark is what really matters and that belongs to Wilton even though York created it first. So York had to change its design to avoid trademark infringement.


Steve

Hey now; some of us fellas like to study the history of things for their own sake. To me, the first to create a design is more interesting than the fastest, smartest, or best-connected to establish a trademark.

 

[kc-steve]

Yes I agree. There hasn’t been a legal indictment from York concerning the vise design even to this day. When I look at what Robert says (post #141), “I believe Hugh had worked for a vise company in the Check republic and you can see the similarities of the Wilton vises if you Google York vise.” So then the actual legal debate might be over whether Hugh Vogl had the right to the design during his employment. Without a court action then we can only speculate which company actually owns the rights, but the current trademark is the only thing that is legal at this point.

We are all facing newer intellectual property dilemmas with China and Asia. Without proper laws or ways of properly enforcing those laws then it will be a free-for-all in the world of creativity, engineering and production.

A client recently told me he attended a conference where he found out that in order to do business in China, a producer must supply all design schematics and drawings of their products to Chinese authorities. This implies that if your company is ever booted out of China then they will have the capability to produce your product without you or your permission.

So if we don’t have laws with teeth then what’s the point? The occasional “Hugh Vogl” is the sacrifice we make in order to have an orderly legal system for intellectual property.

Steve

 

[JSteinhoff]

Why would you assume that the Prague, Czech "York" company and it's owners survived Nazi occupation and the war? Most production during the long occupation years, 1938-1945, would have been converted to produce German war goods.

It has been written, and unconfirmed, that Wilton founder Hugo Vogl was a Jewish merchant in Prague pre-war, and likely fled his homeland prior to the invasion of Poland, 1938' or earlier. Immigration from Nazi occupied countries was halted with the Polish invasion, Sept. 1939.

It is logical that Vogl could have studied the York design, or obtained one, and copied this design for his "Wilton" vise. The fog of war could have covered his theft of design, and his subsequent patent submission in 41'.

Nazi occupation varied in severity, but most would have been just trying to stay alive, and millions perished. Who is to say the York interest holders were not among them?.

Since the Czech York design was being produced in the 1920's, I find it impossible not to believe that the Wilton bullet vise is not an almost direct copy of the Czech design.

Just food for thought!

Regards, JS

 

[Lump]

I'm no lawyer, as I have stated before, but I do often get close to current legal situations where clients and their products are copied elsewhere. So here is my point:

As far as I understand the law, the first person to trademark or copyright a design in a particular country is the legal OWNER of that entity in that country.

In other words, if I were to design a unique tool and patent/trademark it here in the USA, then I am the legal owner, and can stop other people from copying my design in the USA. However, if I never bother to spend the time and money (it takes lots of BOTH, I might add) to patent/trademark my new tool in every other country around the world, then sooner or later someone else will find my design and trademark or patent it in their own country....like India, for example. Then they become the sole legal owner of that tool design in that country, and even I cannot sell my own-designed tools there without paying them a royalty. They OWN the trademark/patent in that country...not me. The tricky part comes in when their tools start showing up in my country, and I need to try and marshall my rights. Not always easy in the USA!

 

[Lump]

The most famous example of my above-stated example in the USA (in MY mind, at least) is the Selden automobile patent.

The first "horseless carriage" automobiles were successfully built and patented in Europe. Mr Selden saw them, and liked the idea. He came home to the USA and checked to find that there was no US patent on self-propelled vehicles. He filed his own patent, and in the early years, all US automakers had to pay him a royalty on every car they built and sold. Henry Ford and others fought the Selden patent in court, and eventually prevailed. But Selden made a lot of money for a while on other people's products, solely because he held the legal patent in the USA.

 

[demographic]

I'm no lawyer, as I have stated before, but I do often get close to current legal situations where clients and their products are copied elsewhere. So here is my point:

As far as I understand the law, the first person to trademark or copyright a design in a particular country is the legal OWNER of that entity in that country.

In other words, if I were to design a unique tool and patent/trademark it here in the USA, then I am the legal owner, and can stop other people from copying my design in the USA. However, if I never bother to spend the time and money (it takes lots of BOTH, I might add) to patent/trademark my new tool in every other country around the world, then sooner or later someone else will find my design and trademark or patent it in their own country....like India, for example. Then they become the sole legal owner of that tool design in that country, and even I cannot sell my own-designed tools there without paying them a royalty. They OWN the trademark/patent in that country...not me. The tricky part comes in when their tools start showing up in my country, and I need to try and marshall my rights. Not always easy in the USA!

There's been companies keeping an eye out for new patents in one country then patenting it in another for decades.
Seems like Wilton has done it also now.

Nothing against Wilton for doing it but they can't change history by claiming they came up with it first, that's all.

To my eyes that York vise is another interesting part of Wilton history. Sort of as "Prelude to Wilton" kind of story.

 

[Lump]

I agree, Demographic. But this may explain why you don't find very many York-branded bullet vises here in the USA. They probably were not allowed to market them here, once Wilton got his legal papers in order. And you probably won't find many Wilton-branded bullet vises in the Czech Republic either.

 

[sret43]

York Bullet Vise COMPARISON

[Here it is from the bottom view

[/IMG][/QUOTE]

I can see from this photo above and the following photo of the vise I just purchased that the quality of the Yorks are as low as it gets. You'll notice that the base of both vises do not line up and are very sloppy in fitment. To rotate the vise on it's lower section is an embarrasment in front of my friends. If I'd a known this I would have passed on the York.

 

[dykmore]

Hi,very nice thread. If you want to translate anything from czech language,or if you need some help with mapping the York history,just contact me - i'm czech

 

[Jarhead0408]

Awesome avatar name^^^^ You tell the ladies your name is dykmore?

 

[C.BRAXMAIER]

Lots of good info, here are these 150's =6'' pretty good shape..

 

[affitfather]

Just to clarify, York vises were widely imported into the US after World War II. A York salesman by the name of Hugh W. Vogl fled Czechoslovakia for the USA where he patented the same design for a new company he founded, Wilton Tool Manufacturing Co. Wilton reportedly also copyrighted the bullet-vise design and York had to modify their design before importing their vises into the USA. The Wilton tool company was founded on a stolen idea...York's design.

 

[sumner52000]

Should have known a google search would lead me right back to GJ. I picked up a York 125 a couple weeks ago. I bid in an online auction of a tire shop closing sale with sorry pictures. I thought I was bidding on a bench with a Wilton Bullet. I was disappointed when I went to pick it up.

 

[2oolhound]

The biggest issue I had with my York was that the vise moves all over the place on the swivel when loose on the swivel base. There is nothing to hold it centred. I made a 1/2" thick round washer to hold it centred. You can see details of this fix on pg 155 post #3082 of the vises of GJ here"

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5773784

I'm happy with the vise now.

 

[Roberts210]

Google Image search is your friend. Lots of pictures of York vices.

 

[MikeF2316]

The biggest issue I had with my York was that the vise moves all over the place on the swivel when loose on the swivel base. There is nothing to hold it centred. I made a 1/2" thick round washer to hold it centred. You can see details of this fix on pg 155 post #3082 of the vises of GJ here"

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5773784

I'm happy with the vise now.

I had the same issue. I overdid my modification though.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6154515&postcount=89

 

[Duke74]

We have a vintage York bullet vise, it seems like a good sturdy vise.

 

[Greg Lewis]

Should have known a google search would lead me right back to GJ. I picked up a York 125 a couple weeks ago. I bid in an online auction of a tire shop closing sale with sorry pictures. I thought I was bidding on a bench with a Wilton Bullet. I was disappointed when I went to pick it up.

Don’t be disappointed. York invented the bullet vise. You’ve bought an original, not a copy. Enjoy.