Old Crap

Posted by 141drew Sep 13, 2019 at 6:58 AM and filed under Reviews & Features

Updated on May 28, 2021 at 11:37 AM

When I need a “new” tool, my first inclination is ALWAYS to seek out the old. I just like the texture of age… Sometimes, obviously, I don’t have the time to refurbish or need the technology of new and have to go to market. But if it’s a tool that works as well aged as it does shiny, there’s no question which direction I am gonna go.

This morning I was tapping a hole and got handsy with my tap wrench. It’s a Starrett 91. It was in my Dad’s toolbox long before I was born and will most likely end up in my kid’s as well. It’s simply gorgeous… and one of those tools that is far better than anything I could buy new (wait, can’t you still buy the 91?) and far more meaningful than just a simple tap wrench – even if it wasn’t a family heirloom.

Anyway, this all got me to thinking – We all have simple tools like this with some age that have a little meaning. What’s yours? Post a picture if you got them!

See Comments on the forum.

View thread (41 replies)

DadsTools

Well-known member

Sep 13, 2019

Very nice!

Ryan

Administrator

Staff member

Sep 13, 2019

DadsTools said:
Very nice!

I actually stole that picture from Google... but mine is exactly the same. I'm on the road at the moment.

d.mcfarland

Well-known member

Sep 13, 2019

Reduce, reuse, recycle works very well in the hand tool category.

jdewitt

Well-known member

Sep 13, 2019

Power tools have to keep up with technology. Hand tools not so much and can be useful for a long time.

Ryan

Administrator

Staff member

Sep 13, 2019

jdewitt said:
Power tools have to keep up with technology. Hand tools not so much and can be useful for a long time.

Not necessarily. My table saw was made in 1953. My drill press was made in 1949. My belt/disc sander was made sometime before 1960. My bandsaw was made sometime in the 1950s... and my joiner was made in 1946.

None of those tools (except maybe the table saw due to the tech in SawStops)have been bettered by technology for what I do. And in many cases, new stuff isn't made nearly as well.

A great example is a simple early Craftsman drill press. Nothing made today in that price range can match it as far as build quality.

jdewitt

Well-known member

Sep 13, 2019

Ryan said:
Not necessarily. My table saw was made in 1953. My drill press was made in 1949. My belt/disc sander was made sometime before 1960. My bandsaw was made sometime in the 1950s... and my joiner was made in 1946.

None of those tools (except maybe the table saw due to the tech in SawStops)have been bettered by technology for what I do. And in many cases, new stuff isn't made nearly as well.

A great example is a simple early Craftsman drill press. Nothing made today in that price range can match it as far as build quality.

You're absolutely right. I should have said "some" power tools. I should have known better-- I have a 1950's Craftsman drill press.

My comment might still apply to things like cordless tool battery tech though.

Stuart in MN

Well-known member

Sep 13, 2019

They put a lot of thought into making that Starrett tap wrench beautiful as well as functional.

It makes me think of something one of my professors in engineering school said about good design...there are three steps; first make it work, then make it simple, and finally make it pretty.

I think there are plenty of tools in the Blackhawk thread that meet this criteria - besides being functional, they also had a real flair for making them attractive.

Last edited: Sep 13, 2019

engineer2

Well-known member

Sep 13, 2019

I' have one of those Starrett tap handles. Very nice to use.
Got it from a previous employer who had no clue what it was for. I didn't let on either.

PFSard

Well-known member

Sep 13, 2019

jdewitt said:
You're absolutely right. I should have said "some" power tools. I should have known better-- I have a 1950's Craftsman drill press.

My comment might still apply to things like cordless tool battery tech though.

Just to start : My Lithium Ion cordless tools are much more convenient than my older corded tools. And my fine tooth ratchets when in tight quarters.

But I have a lot of the older "iron" that I really like. I have some of those old Starrett tools. Great stuff.

I guess not all old stuff is great. And not all not stuff is junk. Depends ...

Last edited: Sep 13, 2019

bonneyman

Well-known member

Sep 13, 2019

PFSard said:
...I guess not all old stuff is great. And not all new stuff is junk. Depends ...

Fixed it for ya! And I agree!

Like with so many other things - cars, music, people.
I'm just working really hard on not being a crappy old person! :lol_hitti

Ryan

Administrator

Staff member

Sep 13, 2019

jdewitt said:
You're absolutely right. I should have said "some" power tools. I should have known better-- I have a 1950's Craftsman drill press.

My comment might still apply to things like cordless tool battery tech though.

100% agree.

bonneyman said:
I'm just working really hard on not being a crappy old person!

Good on you man. It makes me happy other people work on this too... Sounds sappy, but I think it's important.

Jim C.

Well-known member

Sep 13, 2019

I’ll take an old tool or machine over a new one any day of the week. New stuff is nice, but a quality vintage tool or machine is ALWAYS my preference if I can find a good one. The tools depicted below are just a few that belonged to my grandfather. I use them (particularly the squares) all the time and will continue to do so until the end.....

Jim C.

rlitman

Well-known member

Sep 13, 2019

What's better than "rusty" "old ****"? Well, I can think of a few things, but could probably count the whole list on one hand.

I agree that the form follows function of that tap handle, plus Starrett's immaculate quality is what gives it its beauty. Or at least, since beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I expect that I'm seeing the same beauty as the rest of us here.

davethorik

Well-known member

Sep 13, 2019

Starrett still makes the 91 series tap handles, but I prefer older like yours. The modern ones don't say Athol Mass USA because Starrett is ashamed of marking things made in USA now that they are a "global" brand.

Stuart in MN

Well-known member

Sep 13, 2019

davethorik said:
The modern ones don't say Athol Mass USA because Starrett is ashamed of marking things made in USA now that they are a "global" brand.

You know that for a fact?

davethorik

Well-known member

Sep 13, 2019

Ok that comment was a little out there, but I know for a fact the new production 91A-D tap wrenches, and also the no. 174 tap wrench (which is similar but very small), do not say USA on them. Last time I checked their website was good about labeling COO, and it said USA. I can't think of a rational reason to drop it off the tool. Other tools of theirs have lost the USA marking as well, notably steel rules. This change roughly coincides with starrett growing as a "global" brand. Maybe im paranoid, or connecting dots that aren't there.

Which brings me back to, I prefer the older ones like Ryan pictured. The older ones tend to be smoother, and not just from use.

Jeremy77

Well-known member

Sep 13, 2019

The Japanese have a concept called Sabi that translates to something having beauty from being worn and naturally used. I feel that way about many things.. tools, guns, knives etc. there’s just a great feeling I get from grabbing an old tool and using it. Guess that why I don’t mind owners marks, oxidation and the like on my tools.

lastgoodusername

Well-known member

Sep 14, 2019

I have always been of the same mindset. It's like an old friend. Some, not very many new tools relay that feeling. Few people get it. I guess that is why we gather on The Garage Journal.

03.

Well-known member

Sep 14, 2019

davethorik said:
Starrett still makes the 91 series tap handles, but I prefer older like yours. The modern ones don't say Athol Mass USA because Starrett is ashamed of marking things made in USA now that they are a "global" brand.

In Australia the line of thinking tends to be if made in Australia, or made in England or made in USA is taken off a tool it is because in is no longer made in that country, and as such is no longer of any significant quality.

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Jim C.

Well-known member

Sep 14, 2019

Jeremy77 said:
The Japanese have a concept called Sabi that translates to something having beauty from being worn and naturally used. I feel that way about many things.. tools, guns, knives etc. there’s just a great feeling I get from grabbing an old tool and using it. Guess that why I don’t mind owners marks, oxidation and the like on my tools.

I’m with you right up to the prior “owners marks” part of your statement. I have a few lightly etched/marked tools, including a few of my grandfather’s depicted above, and I’m okay with it. I don’t go out of my way to buy them, but occasionally I have....... but when I come across something like this, it totally turns me off, and that “great feeling” of using an old tool goes right out the window. Then my thinking changes to, “Why the f### would someone deface a tool like that?”

Jim C.

bonneyman

Well-known member

Sep 14, 2019

Jim C. said:
I’m with you right up to the prior “owners marks” part of your statement. I have a few lightly etched/marked tools, including a few of my grandfather’s depicted above, and I’m okay with it. I don’t go out of my way to buy them, but occasionally I have....... but when I come across something like this, it totally turns me off, and that “great feeling” of using an old tool goes right out the window. Then my thinking changes to, “Why the f### would someone deface a tool like that?”

Jim C.

Dang, that is a bad scar. Done on purpose.

Go figure.

Most older tools I get I almost expect some kind of marks on it. If I'm getting it to use then I don't care. But if it's for a collection I'd like it to be as pristine as possible. With old tools that's hard, because most oldsters bought tools to work 'em. So untouched examples are rare.

Jim C.

Well-known member

Sep 14, 2019

bonneyman said:
Dang, that is a bad scar. Done on purpose.

Go figure........

Yeah, right. The big ugly “dot” on the end of the handle wasn’t enough.

Jim C.

Last edited: Sep 14, 2019

Provincial

Well-known member

Sep 14, 2019

One must remember that good quality tools cost a lot of money back then. Having one stolen was a bigger financial hit than today. Traumatic experience can make people do things that seem extreme from a distance (time or space).

That does not excuse the vandalism of a fine tool, it just explains it.

Jim C.

Well-known member

Sep 14, 2019

Provincial said:
One must remember that good quality tools cost a lot of money back then. Having one stolen was a bigger financial hit than today. Traumatic experience can make people do things that seem extreme from a distance (time or space).

That does not excuse the vandalism of a fine tool, it just explains it.

Yeah I guess that’s one reasonable explanation. Another one is, 60 years ago some ***** had his head up his a## and defaced a good tool. I’m gonna guess that others who right there at the time with no benefit of “distance” thought the guy was a dumb sh## for doing it. :lol_hitti

Jim C.

mikehaugen

Well-known member

Sep 14, 2019

I think the line for power tools is drawn at hand vs stationary. Stationary power tools... the older the better, hand held... newer is typically better.

I love old tools, but there are instances where new technology has made them better. Hand tools are pretty much exempt from this, except for maybe ratchets.

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Jeremy77

Well-known member

Sep 14, 2019

Jim C. said:
Yeah I guess that’s one reasonable explanation. Another one is, 60 years ago some ***** had his head up his a## and defaced a good tool. I’m gonna guess that others who right there at the time with no benefit of “distance” thought the guy was a dumb sh## for doing it.

Jim C.

I can assure you that a lot of people marking their tools are certainly not morons. The fact that you may view them as something to be treasured and unmarred doesn’t mean all do. To most, they’re simply a means to an end and if notching or drilling them keeps someone from walking off with them, they’re perfectly fine with it. When I worked for Chevron, the first thing they did when the tool room got new hand or power tools was take a dremel and engrave a big old CHEVRON in every one. Every wrench that I have that belonged to my granddad has his initials welded into it. There wasn’t a tool man to come by or even a Sears nearby if a tool went missing when he was working on the pipeline in Wyoming or some other out of the way place.

bczygan

Well-known member

Sep 14, 2019

Living in a perfect time.

Old robust quality still available for cheap and new high tech available everywhere.

Living large!

Bill

Ryan

Administrator

Staff member

Sep 15, 2019

My dad marked all of his tools... Those tools mean more to me... And I've bought some stuff at swap meets with names and markings - I like those too... They tell a story.

Jim C.

Well-known member

Sep 15, 2019

Ryan said:
My dad marked all of his tools... Those tools mean more to me... And I've bought some stuff at swap meets with names and markings - I like those too... They tell a story.

Like I said, I’m okay with some light etching, initials, etc. My grandfather lightly initialed all of his tools. (See response #13 photo above). Tools like that do tell a story, particularly if the tools belonged to an ancestor and are being passed down to a family member or friend. They definitely have a sentimental value. I have a few lightly etched flea market/swap meet purchased tools as well with the initials of people I don’t know. They’re good old tools that should be used. But that’s where it ends with me. I guess digging a deep hole, gouge, or whatever in them seems excessive to me and I don’t like it. Every one has an opinion.

I don’t want to derail the intent of the thread. Old tools and machines are generally my preference whenever I can buy them and/or use them and I have a shop full of them by choice.

Jim C.

Last edited: Sep 15, 2019

jd_1138

Well-known member

Sep 15, 2019

Beautiful tool, Ryan. I also appreciate the higher quality of the older stuff. I wonder how it was originally sold? Probably at an industrial supply house that also sold materials to machine shops and mechanics -- sold by a professional counter person.

Or perhaps on a tool truck (that looked like a bread truck of that era).

jd_1138

Well-known member

Sep 15, 2019

Ryan said:
My dad marked all of his tools... Those tools mean more to me... And I've bought some stuff at swap meets with names and markings - I like those too... They tell a story.

Yeah, they were owned by someone's beloved father, uncle, brother, etc. who worked their **** off (like your father did) to provide for his family. He (or she) didn't want their valuable tools walking off.

My dad was a mechanic all his life from the time he entered the Army Motor Pool in 1962 and was still working PT as a mechanic when he died in 2015. 53 years of his name being engraved on his precious tools.

DeucePhaeton

Member

Sep 15, 2019

My sister and I both have tack hammers that our Dad used redoing upholstery. She more than I have memories of him, a mouth full of tacks fastening new upholstery to chairs. He was a General Supervisor for Oldsmobile here in Lansing but when he first went to work there in '48 he worked two jobs. Oldsmobile and a night gig at Harold Hough Upholstery. Dad said he worked 40 hours at Olds and 40 hours at Harold's because "he didn't have a pot to piss in nor a window to throw it out."
For the most part my Step-mother made sure I didn't get hand-me-down tools from his collection after he died in 95. She sold everything he had from wood-working to an acquaintance of hers a week after he was buried. Somehow the two hammers were not in his shop when the deal went down. My Grandfather's tools (where Dad learned his trade) and his Uncle Miron's tools (whom Dad learn many carpentry skills) were lost out of spite.
So be it. We have the two hammers.

Bob Hall

Well-known member

Sep 16, 2019

Some of my favorite chisels and hand saws as well my Unisaw came from the shop of a fellow named Stanley ( no,really ). His names adds much value to these tools for me. In addition to the fact that they are excellent for their designed purpose, I got Stanley's story from his son and I keep it in mind when I use them.
Call me sentimental...

brandyspaw

Active member

Sep 20, 2019

I've still got the hand tools that I got from my Dad from when he was an implement mechanic in the late forties and into the fifties. They were a wide mix of brands but were all really decent quality.

Then I still have some tools that were given to me when I started out as an young auto mechanic in the seventies. Those tools were from my boss and a co-worker at the first shop I worked at to help me get started. But even those hand me down tools were better quality than most of tools you can buy today. I really appreciated that they helped a young mechanic struggling to get a tool set put together.

Even though a lot of those tools were eventually upgraded there were some that stayed my number one tools over the two decades I worked as a mechanic. But those tools mean so much to me because they were my Dads and also that two old mechanics in my first shop thought enough of me to help me get started. Those guys have long since passed and I'll always treasure those old tools because they mean so much to me.

shaune

Well-known member

Sep 24, 2019

I have only 2 pieces from my grandpa’s vast collection. He worked for a garage and then after a full day he ran his own evening shop so he had tools galore. He passed away when I was an early teenager.
One is a well worn small blade screwdriver and I kid you not every time I use it....and I do use it in my full time job, I think of him using it on a 58 Buick or adjusting a 71 Evinrude outboard. I am cautious how I now use it.
The other was a life lesson....it was a 3/8 , 6” Snap On extension from the 60s. Chrome is chipped and back in the late 80s when I was in college I asked about the Snap On guy to exchange this for me. My wise instructor asked some questions and suggested as that was my grandfather’s tool...why would I want to exchange it for something shiny. Both tools I treasure still today....chipped chrome included.

As for “defacing” a tool, I call that part of its history. The person cared enough to put his mark on it to keep it.

Last edited: Sep 24, 2019

Man of Many Vices

Well-known member

Sep 24, 2019

Scratching a set of initials or carving some "unique" gouges on a beautiful new tool with an angle or bench grinder is like a young person getting a prison facial tattoo. It's just plain ugly.

Like the inmate, the tool defacer can't look beyond his immediate environment, where unambiguous displays of ownership or affiliation are essential.

The defacer doesn't see the value of his tools beyond his own use. Yet, as we all know, almost every good tool will be owned by someone other than the original purchaser. And unmarked tools command a premium price, compared to the tattooed ones.

It is too bad that the original owner didn't think that far ahead.

Downwindtracker 2

Well-known member

Sep 24, 2019

Maybe he wanted his tools back ? I've broken very few tools over the years, in very hard industrial use. However I've "lost" quite a number, so when I see notches ground in them, I'm not offended. In a more honest society, marking tools wouldn't be needed.

Old woodworking hand tools are simply much better quality than what is generally available now. There are exceptions like Veritas planes and chisels. Mechanics tools on the other hand are now superbly finished. Used tool prices reflect that.

thedrewski86

New member

Sep 24, 2019

All my old Plumb wrenches and ratchets have "W.J.R." (my grandfather's initials) stamped on them. It kinda irritated me at first but now I see the appeal. These tools actually have more value to me than they would to anyone else now, even if your initials happened to be WJR. Even though those aren't my initials, I know who the real WJR is and even though he's long gone these are still his tools. They sit in my toolbox next to all the newer metric sizes I actually use. :thumbup:

Man of Many Vices

Well-known member

Sep 25, 2019

Mr. Drewski: Your owner-marked tools are a priceless exception to what I consider the "no tool tattoo" rule. There is no one better to possess your grandfather's tools, and no better tools to reside in your toolbox.

Last edited: Oct 3, 2019

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